When does a Homo sapiens become a Homo sapiens?

[Tom White]

Apparently you knew you couldn't give a good reply to the rest of what I said, especially the last bit?

I've already had this discussion with you before. Didn't really feel like going over it again, oh well.

If you think that an animal - a rat, or perhaps a worm - should be given rights like human rights, yet not actual humans provided they're at an early stage of development, then we will not be able to agree on this issue. I am "racist" because I think the human race is superior to animals. I hope you would prove yourself to be the same too if put to the test. For example, if you had an opportunity in saving either a child or a cat from deadly harm, with no other external circumstances threatening you for failure to save either or motivation due to some kind of reward or anything else, I hope you would all the same freely choose the child.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Because they're called human rights, not person rights.

The term human can mean different things in different contexts. Sometimes it does refer to a genetic human. Sometimes it refers to a person.

Unfortunately, philosophy isn't as easy as pointing out word choice. In asking oneself what "human rights" are, it isn't self-evident that the possession of human DNA is the relevant criterion.

Do you have a theory of human rights? Can you explain why genetics is so important to the possession of human rights? Why ought we to respect human rights? What is the purpose of human rights?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Paradoxum]

I've already had this discussion with you before. Didn't really feel like going over it again, oh well.

If you think that an animal - a rat, or perhaps a worm - should be given rights like human rights, yet not actual humans provided they're at an early stage of development, then we will not be able to agree on this issue.

I never said that animals should have human rights. Perhaps if you quote what I say you might have a better chance of getting my argument right.

I am "racist" because I think the human race is superior to animals. I hope you would prove yourself to be the same too if put to the test. For example, if you had an opportunity in saving either a child or a cat from deadly harm, with no other external circumstances threatening you for failure to save either or motivation due to some kind of reward or anything else, I hope you would all the same freely choose the child.

I didn't say you were racist, but that what you were saying seems comparable to racism. I also never said that persons don't have more rights. My point was that mere physical biological difference doesn't give or take away rights. Rights are based on mental capacities, not biology. Yes I would save the child, but what does that prove? If I had the choice to save family or non-family I would save family. I have a greater connection to family and to humans in general. That doesn't mean I think they are better.

I also said, "I'm sure we would think that if intelligent aliens came to earth they would have the right to life too. That is because we see important similarities between them and us that have nothing to do with the physical. The right to life is found in the capacities of the mind, not biological structure."

 

[IzzyPop]

Except that abortion is not simply withdrawing support; it involves use of deadly force against an individual. We have laws limiting use of force in dealing with scenarios like trespassing, and we treat criminals more humanely than we do the unborn to be frank.

Depends on the state. Here in Kansas I can blow away just about anyone that enters my house uninvited. But even if you were right, so what? The death of the child is secondary. Make an external uterus that we can decant the fetus into and we will no longer be having this discussion.

Maybe you disagree with that, but can you at least give a direct answer to the questions I put forth in the OP? Rather than just responding with a counter-question and taking the thread off-topic? You don't have to and I can't force you to obviously, but it would be appreciated all the same. Thanks.

Why? It is a nonsensical question that cannot be answered.

At what point does red become orange on a spectrum chart?

 

[Belk]

A simple question for those who think that a human's life does not begin at conception:

When does a Homo sapiens become a Homo sapiens?


Wikipedia tells me that

"A zygote is always synthesized from the union of two gametes, and constitutes the first stage in a unique organism's development."

​

Those who think otherwise are being unscientific.

Human rights should be granted to humans on basis that they are members of the species Homo sapiens:

human being

noun

1. any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.

2. a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species: living conditions not fit for human beings; a very generous human being.

​

Dictionary definition courtesy of dictionary dot com.

When does an acorn become an oak tree? I think this would be classified as an argument from definition or a semantic argument.

 

[Tom White]

When does an acorn become an oak tree? I think this would be classified as an argument from definition or a semantic argument.

You're confusing species with life cycle.

 

[Belk]

You're confusing species with life cycle.

Huh, a valid point. Still, I don't think the argument from the pro choice side is that they are not Homo sapiens (or Homo sapiens sapiens if you want to get technical) but that they are not "persons" under the law who are capable of living autonomously.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

A simple question for those who think that a human's life does not begin at conception:

When does a Homo sapiens become a Homo sapiens?


Wikipedia tells me that

"A zygote is always synthesized from the union of two gametes, and constitutes the first stage in a unique organism's development."

​

Those who think otherwise are being unscientific.

Human rights should be granted to humans on basis that they are members of the species Homo sapiens:

human being

noun

1. any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.

2. a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species: living conditions not fit for human beings; a very generous human being.

​

Dictionary definition courtesy of dictionary dot com.

Any live birth would be a Homo sapiens, I suppose.

 

[Tom White]

Huh, a valid point. Still, I don't think the argument from the pro choice side is that they are not Homo sapiens (or Homo sapiens sapiens if you want to get technical) but that they are not "persons" under the law who are capable of living autonomously.

Well that's interesting because I've been told by enough of them that the unborn are not "humans", at least not in the early stages of development, yet the dictionary defines human in terms of species. As do I.

 

[Belk]

Well that's interesting because I've been told by enough of them that the unborn are not "humans", at least not in the early stages of development, yet the dictionary defines human in terms of species. As do I.

I believe you will find there are multiple dictionary definitions one of which is synonymous with "Person".

 

[Tom White]

I believe you will find there are multiple dictionary definitions one of which is synonymous with "Person".

Yeah fair enough. One of the definitions of "person" is "Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being."

I was only thinking of this from a biological point of view.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I've already had this discussion with you before. Didn't really feel like going over it again, oh well.

If you think that an animal - a rat, or perhaps a worm - should be given rights like human rights, yet not actual humans provided they're at an early stage of development, then we will not be able to agree on this issue. I am "racist" because I think the human race is superior to animals. I hope you would prove yourself to be the same too if put to the test. For example, if you had an opportunity in saving either a child or a cat from deadly harm, with no other external circumstances threatening you for failure to save either or motivation due to some kind of reward or anything else, I hope you would all the same freely choose the child.

Just out of curiosity, should a person who is in a braindead or vegetative state be kept of life-support indefinitely? I'm speaking of those unfortunate incidents where someone is kept alive by modern medicine where unplugging the machines that regulate bodily functions would kill them. Those people who have received such brain trauma they are not conscious or not capable of intelligence?

 

[Belk]

Yeah fair enough. One of the definitions of "person" is "Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being."

I was only thinking of this from a biological point of view.

No worries. Seems a common misconception. Hence why I make sure to distinguish my terms when debating this topic.

 

[Skaloop]

Because they're called human rights, not person rights.

So everything that is human has those rights?

 

[yasic]

Is that how you justify killing those humans that don't matter to you?

Take the rare but real case of a twin polymelial arm. This is where twins with unique DNA start forming in the womb but for whatever reason one of the twins gets absorbed by the other; in some situations you end up with a lone body part such as an arm 'growing out of' the 'main twin'.

This arm acts as a parasite on the main twin taking blood and nutrients, but biologically it is a unique human being.

In virtually all cases, operations have been taken to remove this arm, which kills this unique human. Tell me, how do you justify killing these humans, or are you in favor of granting these arms full human rights?

 

[Dave Ellis]

A simple question for those who think that a human's life does not begin at conception:

When does a Homo sapiens become a Homo sapiens?


Wikipedia tells me that

"A zygote is always synthesized from the union of two gametes, and constitutes the first stage in a unique organism's development."

​

Those who think otherwise are being unscientific.

Human rights should be granted to humans on basis that they are members of the species Homo sapiens:

human being

noun

1. any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.

2. a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species: living conditions not fit for human beings; a very generous human being.

​

Dictionary definition courtesy of dictionary dot com.

Actually, to quote the late great George Carlin, life began about a billion years ago and since then it's been one long ongoing process.

Life didn't start at conception, the sperm and egg that formed the Zygote, and later fetus were alive long before conception. In fact the egg is almost as old as the mother carrying the egg.

The fact an egg meets a sperm cell doesn't add up to anything overly special in itself. It's simply a fertilized egg. Once it develops to the point where it would be self sufficient, self aware etc... that's when we can start talking about it as a baby.

 

[Jade Margery]

So, unable to answer my questions then? In fact you barely responded to my posts at all. I feel most unloved.

Here they are again, in case you need a refresher:

Should every single miscarriage be investigated as a possible homicide or manslaughter case? Yes or no.

Should all fertility treatments that involve creating more than one embryo at a time, knowing most of them will die, be illegal? Yes or no.

Should all birth control methods which could possibly prevent a fertilized egg from implanting (therefore aborting it) be illegal, even if their primary use is to prevent ovulation? Yes or no.

Just three simple questions Tom! What do you say?

 

[quilbilly]

A simple question for those who think that a human's life does not begin at conception:

When does a Homo sapiens become a Homo sapiens?/QUOTE]


When does a homo sapien become a homo sapien with a soul?

 

[Lethe]

Except that abortion is not simply withdrawing support; it involves use of deadly force against an individual.

And you would consider a drug to induce labor at 6 weeks... what?

 

[Dave Ellis]

A simple question for those who think that a human's life does not begin at conception:

When does a Homo sapiens become a Homo sapiens?/QUOTE]


When does a homo sapien become a homo sapien with a soul?

How do you know there is such thing as a soul?