When did/will the old covenant end?

[betterorworse]

Jesus is proof of judgement on the world, no excuses.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Incorrect, the greek word is katargoumenēn καταργουμένην, which is a present participle. It is present. It is literally translated as 'is fading'



Incorrect, the greek word is katargoumenon καταργούμενον, which is a present participle. it is literally translated as 'is fading away'



Let's look at the tense of the verbs in hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is growing old and aging is ready to vanish away.

He has made obsolete - perfect indicative active - past tense
pepalaiōken πεπαλαίωκεν

Growing old - present participle - present tense
palaioumenon παλαιούμενον

Aging - present participle - present tense
gēraskon γηράσκον

Vanish away - Present participle - present tense
aphanismou ἀφανισμοῦ.




How could their be 2 peoples and under 2 different covenants, if the old was done away with.

Additionally are there any verses that specifically state the old covenant was done away with at the cross?



Just go back to the beginning of chapter 7, paul is speaking specifically to the Jews. A jew couldn't be bound to the law and to Christ, that would be adultery. How could a Jew be bound to law after the cross, if it ended when Christ died?

Romans 7:1-3 Or do you not know, brothersa—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.b 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.



For us, even if we wanted to attempt to serve the law of Moses in this present day, we couldn't as the temple was destroyed in 70 ad. It is literally impossible to follow the law of moses today.

Nobody truly knows Biblical Greek because they did not grow up writing and speaking Biblical Greek. Yet, folks seem to act like they grew up in Biblical times and know just as much as Paul did (which to me seems silly). God preserved His Word in the world language of today. For various reasons, I believe this to be the KJV (which has been translated into other languages). For we will not be held accountable to knowing God’s Word in another language we cannot truly know. But we will be held accountable to God in the Word of God in our own language.

Anyways, not that you probably care, or will ever check it out, there are actually many evidences that prove the KJV is divine in origin. For I have given you the plain meaning of God’s Word in the language we are now communicating in. If you don’t accept that, then that is your choice (but it will have consequences). If you are interested, I can provide them for you. But I know most do not want to hear that.

Anyways, Paul talked about the great plainness of speech (See 2 Corinthians 3:12). There was no mention of how we must understand God’s Word in some ancient older language. God was able to translate men’s languages just fine in Acts chapter 2.

 

[claninja]

Nobody truly knows Biblical Greek because they did not grow up writing and speaking Biblical Greek.

So, in other words, we have no idea if our current translations are correct. If nobody truly knows biblical greek, how could scholars translate it?

For we will not be held accountable to knowing God’s Word in another language we cannot truly know. But we will be held accountable to God in the Word of God in our own language.

So Jehovah Witnesses are not held accountable for believing an inaccurately translated bible?

Anyways, not that you probably care, or will ever check it out, there are actually many evidences that prove the KJV is divine in origin.

The KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus, which was Greek.

For I have given you the plain meaning of God’s Word in the language we are now communicating in.

You have given me your opinion on the KJV translation of the Greek word. It is not a fact though. The fact is that the greek word for καταργουμένην (is fading) is a present participle. You can choose to deny that if you want. but it doesn't change the fact.

If you don’t accept that, then that is your choice (but it will have consequences).

That's a subjective statement. I could say the same about you. If you don't accept the true meaning of the greek word that is your choice.

If you are interested, I can provide them for you. But I know most do not want to hear that.

Since this is not the topic of OP, here is not best place for that. But if you want to start a new thread, I would happy to hear it there.

 

[1stcenturylady]

If you have the Holy Spirit then all sin is willful. All of it.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...old-covenant-end.8078338/page-3#post-73091158

^^^ you agreed with my above post. So I'm going on this premise, that you understand that portion of the new covenant.

Prior to committing sin the Holy Spirit warns us, tells us x is wrong to do and to avoid x.

If, for any reason you still do x, then you have done so with full knowledge, and any time you do a thing with full knowledge then it was willful.

We are human, we are faulty. There are going to be times someone still does x.

God forgives us even so, if we go to God with a contrite spirit in full repentance..

Your doctrine attempt to deny God's people of forgiveness, and cut them off from the Throne of God.

Now, thank God you and your doctrine doesn't control who receives forgiveness from the Throne of God or else we'd all be in hell, but this is the point. There is no excuse for any sin, all sin if full of the Holy Spirit is willfull.

And, the fact is, there is still forgiveness for God's people even still so long as the repentance is sincere.

I go by what the word of God says. You can assume anything you want.

 

[1stcenturylady]

So you have never lied, cheated, hated, put things before God, stole, coveted....after becoming a Christian?

No. Why, have you??? If you have, you don't have a foundation to stand on.

 

[claninja]

No. Why, have you??? If you have, you don't have a foundation to stand on.

Wow, must be nice, I guess you can be thankful your not a sinner like me.

Yes, I have. I am not proud of my failings. I continue everyday to ask for forgiveness and the strength to overcome. I do not want to sin, but thanks be God that I have an advocate for when I do. I long for the day when God will rescue me from this wretched body.


Also, You didn't answer my question. Was John writing to the 'little children' so that they may not unintentionally sin?

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin

 

[1stcenturylady]

Wow, must be nice, I guess you can be thankful your not a sinner like me.

Yes, I have. I am not proud of my failings. I continue everyday to ask for forgiveness and the strength to overcome. I do not want to sin, but thanks be God that I have an advocate for when I do. I long for the day when God will rescue me from this wretched body.


Also, You didn't answer my question. Was John writing to the 'little children' so that they may not unintentionally sin?

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin

Unintentionally sinning is part of our imperfections. Jesus said to be perfect. That takes time.

 

[RDKirk]

So, in other words, we have no idea if our current translations are correct. If nobody truly knows biblical greek, how could scholars translate it?



So Jehovah Witnesses are not held accountable for believing an inaccurately translated bible?



The KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus, which was Greek.



You have given me your opinion on the KJV translation of the Greek word. It is not a fact though. The fact is that the greek word for καταργουμένην (is fading) is a present participle. You can choose to deny that if you want. but it doesn't change the fact.



That's a subjective statement. I could say the same about you. If you don't accept the true meaning of the greek word that is your choice.



Since this is not the topic of OP, here is not best place for that. But if you want to start a new thread, I would happy to hear it there.

We know it well enough.

When it gets to grammatical hair-splitting, those hairs are being split on points that are ultimately irrelevant.

Nobody's salvation hangs on being an advanced scholar of koine Greek.

 

[claninja]

Unintentionally sinning is part of our imperfections

We must ask forgiveness for all of our sins.

Jesus said to be perfect.

Well, since you state you have not broke any of the 10 commandments after becoming a Christian...
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’d ”
20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

Have you sold ALL of your possessions and given to the poor yet?
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

That takes time.

We can obtain perfection while living in our fleshly bodies?

It appears you are preaching the doctrine of perfectionism, which is a false doctrine.

*** AGAIN, you did not answer my question:
Was John writing to the 'little children' so that they may not unintentionally sin?
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin

 

[claninja]

When it gets to grammatical hair-splitting, those hairs are being split on points that are ultimately irrelevant.

I agree, but in a discussion of when did the old covenant pass away. Verb tenses make all the difference. and are very relevant to the topic. especially when certain Bible translations change the verb tense of the greek with regards to the passing away of the old covenant (topic of OP)

Nobody's salvation hangs on being an advanced scholar of koine Greek.

Amen to that! but it sure does help to study. Not sure why anybody would not want to study it if they had the chance?

 

[1stcenturylady]

We must ask forgiveness for all of our sins.



Well, since you state you have not broke any of the 10 commandments after becoming a Christian...
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’d ”
20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

Have you sold ALL of your possessions and given to the poor yet?
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”


We can obtain perfection while living in our fleshly bodies?

It appears you are preaching the doctrine of perfectionism, which is a false doctrine.

*** AGAIN, you did not answer my question:
Was John writing to the 'little children' so that they may not unintentionally sin?
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin

I agree, but in a general sense. You can't be specific if you don't know you've sinned.

Yes, the Spirit leads us into all truth, but not all on day one. It took me 23 years to get out of a false religion. Then another year to get me out of the legalistic denomination I was in next. Then 6 years to become filled with the Spirit. And only at that last point was I a true Christian. But even then I didn't know everything that God considered sin. The only thing that changed from before was my will to sin was gone. I was dead to sin.

My greatest concern for the Church is knowing that in all my attending church and studying the Bible for the first 30 years of my life, I wasn't saved from sin yet. I was merely in being drawn by the Holy Spirit. Many in the Church at large will know much, but with all their knowledge they have no power. To them Jesus will say, I never knew you. In our eyes they are saved. In God's eyes, they are not. Whose eyes matter?

 

[Adam Raffell]

The first question to answer is which 'Old' Covenant'?

There are at least five covenants in the Bible between God and human beings, usually the Noaic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic and the New Covenants, and possibly more. We might assume that by the 'Old' covenant we really mean the Mosaic one, since this relates to the giving of the Law/Torah. We find New Testament passages explaining clearly enough that its jurisdiction over believers in Christ does not remain after we have received Christ. Even that understanding though still leaves another four more 'Old' covenants in place.

These covenants are also interwoven historically and narratively. With Noah we have the institution of a basic moral code and God's commitment to the redemption of all humankind. The Abrahamic constitutes God's people and gives them a land, the Mosaic remembers that people and instructs specifically how they should live in that land, the Davidic then assures an eternal Kingdom for the people, in the land overseeing God's instruction from the line of David (often interpreted as a 'Messiah'), then we have Jesus born in David's line to establish said Kingdom.

So to my mind we reflect Scripture far better to speak of the 'Old' and 'New' covenants confirming and ratifying one another, not of the 'Old' covenant ending. We are after all doing theology here, and the reason we can debate this is because the Scriptures don't speak directly in these exact terms. We are offering interpretation.

In Hebrew, the word 'Berith', or Covenant, is indicative of an eternal and unconditional relationship - I can provide follow up examples to back this up if anyone is interested. When God makes a covenant, therefore, it doesn't end. The relationship and promises remain in place forever, incorporated into anything that follows. A covenant is different from a contract, which is a conditional relationship. With a contract, promises and benefits depend strictly on the involved parties abiding by certain conditions. A contract makes provision for it breaking. A covenant does not.

Suggesting the Old Covenant ended involves turning a covenant into a contract. I would argue that when God makes a covenant, that's irrevocable. Again, I can say loads more addressing possible objections that covenants surely have to still be conditional.

The direct implications of this for us if accepted would be: 1) The continued place of the Jewish people as God's people as well as a positive assessment both of Jewish faith-practice and the importance of a home in Israel. 2) The church being fully grafted in and sharing that Israel-status with them (we are fully Torah observant 'in Christ', who kept the Law on our behalf). This also gives us irrevocable assurance of our Salvation in Christ once received, and the universality of God's calling to receive that gift of salvation (though not necessarily that all will receive it).

Would love to hear if that resonates with anybody.

 

[1stcenturylady]

We must ask forgiveness for all of our sins.

Have you sold ALL of your possessions and given to the poor yet?
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Giving is not the problem. I'm broke from all the giving. But even Ananias and Saphira gave. They just didn't give all they said they were giving. They lied.

 

[1stcenturylady]

*** AGAIN, you did not answer my question:
Was John writing to the 'little children' so that they may not unintentionally sin?
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin

I did to. What more do you want? What don't you understand?

Chapter one is about the importance of walking in the light. Those are God's children. But as 1 John 1:7 shows, that even when you are walking in the light, the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse us from sin. THOSE are the sins 1 John 2:1 is talking about. They are not willful sins, as the Spirit will not lead you into willful sin. And not being ignorant of the different types of sin, there is only one conclusion - unintentional sin. But even unintentional sin can be avoided by cooperation with the Spirit. 1 John 2:1 is showing that is possible. How many posts have you read, or even written, that says it is impossible. To say that is anti-christ.

 

[claninja]

I agree, but in a general sense. You can't be specific if you don't know you've sinned.

Yes, the Spirit leads us into all truth, but not all on day one. It took me 23 years to get out of a false religion. Then another year to get me out of the legalistic denomination I was in next. Then 6 years to become filled with the Spirit. And only at that last point was I a true Christian. But even then I didn't know everything that God considered sin. The only thing that changed from before was my will to sin was gone. I was dead to sin.

My greatest concern for the Church is knowing that in all my attending church and studying the Bible for the first 30 years of my life, I wasn't saved from sin yet. I was merely in being drawn by the Holy Spirit. Many in the Church at large will know much, but with all their knowledge they have no power. To them Jesus will say, I never knew you. In our eyes they are saved. In God's eyes, they are not. Whose eyes matter?

So no one is a true Christian yet until they have received the power to no longer willfully sin?

Giving is not the problem. I'm broke from all the giving. But even Ananias and Saphira gave. They just didn't give all they said they were giving. They lied.

Correct, giving is not the problem. However, one saying they are 'doing' everything right is a problem. there is always something that we, even after becoming, Christian do not do perfectly, even if we say we follow the 10 commandments perfectly.

I did to. What more do you want? What don't you understand?

You did? maybe I missed it, Which post # before this did you answer my question?
Was John writing to the 'little children' so that they may not unintentionally sin?
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin

Chapter one is about the importance of walking in the light. Those are God's children. But as 1 John 1:7 shows, that even when you are walking in the light, the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse us from sin.

Amen! I agree.

THOSE are the sins 1 John 2:1 is talking about. They are not willful sins, as the Spirit will not lead you into willful sin.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to. To prove your opinion, Where does 1 john 2:1 state 'unintentional'?

But even unintentional sin can be avoided by cooperation with the Spirit

so if one can avoid unintentional sin and and wilfull sin, then you believe perfection can be obtained in the flesh prior to the resurrection? That is a false doctrine known as perfectionism.

 

[1stcenturylady]

So no one is a true Christian yet until they have received the power to no longer willfully sin?

Absolutely!

Correct, giving is not the problem. However, one saying they are 'doing' everything right is a problem.

"Everything right" to your knowledge.

there is always something that we, even after becoming, Christian do not do perfectly, even if we say we follow the 10 commandments perfectly.

I agree. We are not God and omniscient. But we follow after the Spirit who is.

We aren't under the Ten Commandments.

You did? maybe I missed it, Which post # before this did you answer my question prior to post 94?
Was John writing to the 'little children' so that they may not unintentionally sin?
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin

#91

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to. To prove your opinion, Where does 1 john 2:1 state 'unintentional'?

It doesn't there in so many words, but John does show us in the fifth chapter about sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death. Then in the Old Testament is shows what sins unto death are - willful sins. So, study the whole counsel of God. Taking verses out of context, and you will get into false doctrine like C.

so if one can avoid unintentional sin and and wilfull sin, then you believe perfection can be obtained in the flesh prior to the resurrection? That is a false doctrine known as perfectionism.

There are so many verses about "perfectionism in the New Testament, I don't know how you missed them all. But, of course, you must also believe them. Exactly what religion you are? Even modern Christianity is made up of different doctrines. Are you Calvinist? That would explain a lot.

 

[Ron Gurley]

When did/will the "old covenant" end?.

"old covenant" = conditional

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants.

"New covenant" = unconditional sacrifice in Jesus' blood.

NT does not "erase" anything. Jesus fulfilled the "Law". The OT was full of Law and conditional covenants and prophesy of the Messiah that were given to Israel..not to the other NATIONS.

Try to figger out the "NEW COVENANT"...Hebrews is the masterpiece onexplaining the differences in the promises. The NT is the final chapter and the "good news" ending to the Book.

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying,
“This cup which is poured out for you
is the new covenant in My blood.

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (new) covenant, which is poured out for many FOR forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24
And He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out FOR many. (who accept)

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant,
not of the letter (law)
but of the Spirit;
for the letter kills,
but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 9:1 [ The Old and the New ]
Now even the first covenant
had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary....

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant,
so that, since a death has taken place
for the redemption of the transgressions
that were committed under the first covenant,
those who have been called (believers)
may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the sprinkled blood,

The "CHURCH" is NOT the mediator / intervenor!

 

[claninja]

#91

I see your agreeing that we must ask for forgiveness of all sins:

I agree, but in a general sense. You can't be specific if you don't know you've sinned.

I see your testimony:

Yes, the Spirit leads us into all truth, but not all on day one. It took me 23 years to get out of a false religion. Then another year to get me out of the legalistic denomination I was in next. Then 6 years to become filled with the Spirit. And only at that last point was I a true Christian. But even then I didn't know everything that God considered sin. The only thing that changed from before was my will to sin was gone. I was dead to sin.

And I see your concern about the Church:

My greatest concern for the Church is knowing that in all my attending church and studying the Bible for the first 30 years of my life, I wasn't saved from sin yet. I was merely in being drawn by the Holy Spirit. Many in the Church at large will know much, but with all their knowledge they have no power. To them Jesus will say, I never knew you. In our eyes they are saved. In God's eyes, they are not. Whose eyes matter?

So where exactly in post #91 did you answer my question?

Was John writing to the 'little children' so that they may not unintentionally sin?
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin

 

[Dkh587]

The OT was full of Law and conditional covenants and prophesy of the Messiah that were given to Israel..not to the other NATIONS.

The new covenant is made with/for Israel, not the nations - Jeremiah 31:31-33

 

[claninja]

It doesn't there in so many words

Correct, it doesn't.

but John does show us in the fifth chapter about sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death.

There are not sins, as in plural, that lead to death. There is A sin (singular) that can lead to the death. John does not tell us what it is. Considering this is a highly debatable verse, I wouldn't build a doctrine on it.

1 John 5:16-17 16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and Goda will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin that does not lead to death.

Then in the Old Testament is shows what sins unto death are - willful sins.

Which can be forgiven by God.

Taking verses out of context, and you will get into false doctrine

absolutely agree. Which can be clearly seen in the doctrine of perfectionism.

There are so many verses about "perfectionism in the New Testament, I don't know how you missed them all. But, of course, you must also believe them. Exactly what religion you are? Even modern Christianity is made up of different doctrines. Are you Calvinist? That would explain a lot.

No not a calvanist. Just a sinner who needs a savior every day.