When did the predators come on the scene?

[GoodNewsJim]

I know God exists.

I'm just curious when and how pure Creationists figure when the predators happened? Were lions meat eaters from the get go, or did God guide them to become predatory slowly after Noah's ark?

 

[HypnoToad]

They were likely not created carnivorous, as it specifies that all animals were given plants for food.

When they changed isn't specified. The two probable candidates are after the fall or after the flood. After the flood may be more probable, as that's when man was first told to eat meat.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

They were likely not created carnivorous, as it specifies that all animals were given plants for food.

Where does it say this?

I have often wondered why this is a dilemma. What is the problem with carnivorism? I don't recall the Bible saying that no animals died before the Fall.

 

[NathanCGreen]

I have often wondered why this is a dilemma. What is the problem with carnivorism? I don't recall the Bible saying that no animals died before the Fall.

What dilemma? Have you actually read what the book of Genesis says? It is plainly revealed that God gave all animals a vegetarian diet at the beginning before the fall and subsequent curse.

Why would death be around before sin, when God has said that death is the last enemy that is to be destroyed?

 

[Molal]

I think Wiccan was asking where it says that in the bible.

Wiccan is looking for chapter and verse, I assume.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

What dilemma? Have you actually read what the book of Genesis says? It is plainly revealed that God gave all animals a vegetarian diet at the beginning before the fall and subsequent curse.

Why would death be around before sin, when God has said that death is the last enemy that is to be destroyed?

Hey, it's your faith. Don't ask me.

I think Wiccan was asking where it says that in the bible.

Wiccan is looking for chapter and verse, I assume.

Bingo. It's been a long while since I last read the Bible, so I hope you'll forgive me that I haven't got it the whole thing memorised.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

I've always wondered how these animals went from being vegitarians to carnivores. After all, there are a lot of contemporary animals that are physiologically incapable of being vegitarians (the cat family, many forms of marine life, snakes, etc).

Going from veggie to meat would require some major genetic and physiological rewiring.

 

[Molal]

What about fish and seafood? The bible doesn't mention anything about water dwelling creatures.

Wiccan, I assume they are going to quote Genesis 1:29-30. Still, nothing about seafood.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

What about fish and seafood? The bible doesn't mention anything about water dwelling creatures.

Wiccan, I assume they are going to quote Genesis 1:29-30. Still, nothing about seafood.

I'm not sure I understand how they got that interpretation of those verses. As far as I can see, God is saying that terrestrial animals are allowed to eat plants. It doesn't say anything about them eating only plants.

 

[HypnoToad]

I'm not sure I understand how they got that interpretation of those verses. As far as I can see, God is saying that terrestrial animals are allowed to eat plants. It doesn't say anything about them eating only plants.

Because it's a really odd statement if they can eat anything.

I've always wondered how these animals went from being vegitarians to carnivores. After all, there are a lot of contemporary animals that are physiologically incapable of being vegitarians (the cat family, many forms of marine life, snakes, etc).

Going from veggie to meat would require some major genetic and physiological rewiring.

There's already physiological changes occurring at the fall.

People starting to age and die, increased pain in childbirth - those require physiological changes.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Because it's a really odd statement if they can eat anything.

Why? The Torah (like most antique religious texts) is poetic. Hell, Genesis 1 and 2 are repetitions of the same thing, and the second reverses the order of how some things were created (birds and animals, I think).

There's already physiological changes occurring at the fall.

People starting to age and die, increased pain in childbirth - those require physiological changes.

It is one thing to simply age and die, but quite another to have an entirely different metabolism and digestive tract. Indeed, why did animals change? Surely the curse was layed upon humans?

 

[busterdog]

Why? The Torah (like most antique religious texts) is poetic. Hell, Genesis 1 and 2 are repetitions of the same thing, and the second reverses the order of how some things were created (birds and animals, I think).

Brother, what you are going to find one day is that there is an enormous body of evidence on the literal truth of the Bible. Lots of us have studied the type of sholarship you refer to, which is like taking to an agronomist about orthopedic surgery. Its like they are different fields nearly incapable of exchanging meaningful information. You may think you have us pegged. But, there is an enormous amount to know in this area.

I also know a very great deal about the kinds of things that lead you to choose a pentagram to identify yourself. I know what and how this is taught from either the esoteric old world traditions, Indian/Vedic or the Native American traditions. I have read and read and practiced it, unfortunately.

A word to the wise: have a caution about what you are into. I understand why it makes so much sense to so many. I understand how much of Christianity looks by comparison. I remember what happens inside a persons head. I also know why it is that the Bible very specifically advises folks like yourself: run, dont walk away from it -- and not to give you guilt or restriction or punishment, but to give you real life now and eternal life. God doesn't say it to be mean, but because he wants you to walk with the only perfect love in the universe. Embrace Jesus, the Son of God, and the truth of his resurrection.

From Galatians 5:

19Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
20Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
21Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
23Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[f]that can bring a charge].
24And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
25If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [g]we have our life in God, let us go forward [h]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]


By the way, this forum is not the place to argue your positions. It is for fellowship posts only by those who are not creationists.

 

[HypnoToad]

Why? The Torah (like most antique religious texts) is poetic. Hell, Genesis 1 and 2 are repetitions of the same thing, and the second reverses the order of how some things were created (birds and animals, I think).

Parts of the Old Testament are poetic (like Psalms, Job), but the creation account is not. The grammar and syntax is that used in Hebrew prose, not Hebrew poetry.

It is one thing to simply age and die, but quite another to have an entirely different metabolism and digestive tract.

So what? We are specifically told there were physiological changes. It's irrational to think God is capable of some physiological changes but not others.

Indeed, why did animals change? Surely the curse was layed upon humans?

Scripture specifies that all of creation suffers from the curse:
"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now." - Romans 8:22

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Parts of the Old Testament are poetic (like Psalms, Job), but the creation account is not. The grammar and syntax is that used in Hebrew prose, not Hebrew poetry.

Upon research, I concur.

So what? We are specifically told there were physiological changes.

Where, exactly? Verse-wise, I mean.

It's irrational to think God is capable of some physiological changes but not others.

Oh, I accept that he can do it. It just seems utterly arbitrary. Why alter things to become something other than vegitarian?

Scripture specifies that all of creation suffers from the curse:
"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now." - Romans 8:22

That answers one question, but the other remains: why? I'm baffled.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Brother, what you are going to find one day is that there is an enormous body of evidence on the literal truth of the Bible. Lots of us have studied the type of sholarship you refer to, which is like taking to an agronomist about orthopedic surgery. Its like they are different fields nearly incapable of exchanging meaningful information. You may think you have us pegged. But, there is an enormous amount to know in this area.

Indeed. That is why I am asking questions, not denouncing your faith as demonstratably false.

I also know a very great deal about the kinds of things that lead you to choose a pentagram to identify yourself. I know what and how this is taught from either the esoteric old world traditions, Indian/Vedic or the Native American traditions. I have read and read and practiced it, unfortunately.

Looks like you've got me pegged.

A word to the wise: have a caution about what you are into. I understand why it makes so much sense to so many. I understand how much of Christianity looks by comparison. I remember what happens inside a persons head.

Well, since you know me so well, I guess I can trust everything you say, can't I?
I appreciate you have my best intentions at heart, but you are not the first Christian to talk to me about my faith, nor will you be the last. I do not appreciate being patronised and talked down to. I know the Christian faith very well, and I know exactly what it says about Pagan idolaters like me. But I do not consider the Bible to be any more truthful than the Vedic texts or the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, so my conscience isn't particularily perterbed.

Moreover, while I am more than happy to discuss this or any other topic with you, I would prefer to do it either in the formal debate forum, or via PM: this is a thread about Creationist views on when predators first arose, not about your disapproval of me.

I also know why it is that the Bible very specifically advises folks like yourself: run, dont walk away from it -- and not to give you guilt or restriction or punishment, but to give you real life now and eternal life. God doesn't say it to be mean, but because he wants you to walk with the only perfect love in the universe. Embrace Jesus, the Son of God, and the truth of his resurrection.

I've walked that path. I cannot comment on my experiances without breaking CF rules, so I'll hold my tongue.

From Galatians 5:

19Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
20Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
21Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
23Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[f]that can bring a charge].
24And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
25If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [g]we have our life in God, let us go forward [h]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]

Yes, I'm well aware of what the Bible says about me. Leviticus 18:22 would be more pertinant, though.

By the way, this forum is not the place to argue your positions. It is for fellowship posts only by those who are not creationists.

...
You do realise that I made no mention of my faith, right? You know that it is only you who seem to have a problem with my being here, and who attempted to derail the thread?

I was asking questions as to the topic at hand; what 'position' was I trying to argue?

 

[HypnoToad]

Where, exactly? Verse-wise, I mean.

The curse is Gen.3:14-19. It includes increased pain of childbirth and death. There's also a part about the ground starting to produce weeds, which could be other plants changing into weeds, or introduction of new plant species, which would be on a level similar to herbivores becoming carnivores.

Oh, I accept that he can do it. It just seems utterly arbitrary. Why alter things to become something other than vegitarian?

Part of the introduction of death into the world.

That answers one question, but the other remains: why? I'm baffled.

Again, part of the introduction of death into the world.

 

[Tinker Grey]

The curse is Gen.3:14-19. It includes increased pain of childbirth and death. There's also a part about the ground starting to produce weeds, which could be other plants changing into weeds, or introduction of new plant species, which would be on a level similar to herbivores becoming carnivores.


Part of the introduction of death into the world.


Again, part of the introduction of death into the world.

If I understood the sequence of posts correctly, Wiccan_Child asked why God arbitrarily changed [some] herbivores into carnivores.

Based on the way you answered the question, it sounds as if you would agree with the idea that death is not a natural conseqeunce of sin, but rather God created/introduced death, perhaps as a punishment.

Is that what you believe?

 

[HypnoToad]

Based on the way you answered the question, it sounds as if you would agree with the idea that death is not a natural conseqeunce of sin, but rather God created/introduced death, perhaps as a punishment.

Is that what you believe?

I don't really see a difference, death wasn't "natural" until sin became "natural".

 

[Tinker Grey]

The distinction I'm trying to make is this: There are two statements. 1) Death is a natural consequence of sin; and 2) God created death in response to sin.

I'm attempting to clarify which you believe. Did sin somehow change animals into carnivores, or did God make animals carnivores as a kind of judgement in response to sin? Did God intervene in nature to make carnivores or did nature -- of its own accord (maybe because God designed it to response this way) -- suddenly spawn carnivores?

It's like asking this question: if I swing a bat and hit a ball, does the ball fly away because of design of the universe or because God intervened in nature and moved the ball across space (resulting in a home run, of course)?

 

[HypnoToad]

I don't believe your example quite fits, as I would expect a ball to behave the same whether in the sinless world or in the fallen world.

In this case I still don't see much difference, or at least any meaningful difference.

Death was not natural in the sinless world. Death is natural in the fallen world.