When did the church start?

[JacktheCatholic]

Not really. You could debate when the faith started, when salvation was made possible, when many other things relating to our religion started, but when we speak of the start of the "church," it can only be when there is an assembly. Otherwise, we aren't talking about that which the word itself means.

This is why Pentecost is called the "Birthday of the Church" although it's more an expression and nothing to argue over.

Yes... Church or Assembly of God.

But the Church is also the Bride of Christ. When we see Jesus as the New Adam then we can see a certain poetic correlation between Adam and the creation of Eve as well as Jesus and the creation of his Bride.

I can also see Pentecost as the beginning when 3,000 souls were added and it was more than the Disciples. Though the Disciples were assembled for some time in the room together fasting and praying before Pentecost.

 

[Albion]

Yes... Church or Assembly of God.

But the Church is also the Bride of Christ. When we see Jesus as the New Adam then we can see a certain poetic correlation between Adam and the creation of Eve as well as Jesus and the creation of his Bride.

I appreciate the point, but it's more symbolism--meaningful as that is--than something definite.

Until there is an assembly, though, people gathered around and in fullfilment of what you are speaking of, there isn't a "church."

I can also see Pentecost as the beginning when 3,000 souls were added and it was more than the Disciples. Though the Disciples were assembled for some time in the room together fasting and praying before Pentecost.

That's true, of course, but that's why this birthday designation is more a saying than anything else. We don't know exactly how many people constitute an assembly.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I appreciate the point, but it's more symbolism--meaningful as that is--than something definite.

Until there is an assembly, though, people gathered around and in fullfilment of what you are speaking of, there isn't a "church."



That's true, of course, but that's why this birthday designation is more a saying than anything else. We don't know exactly how many people constitute an assembly.

Symbolism is important in scripture. We see that often and so it should not be dismissed.

As to assembly I think you will find many will say when 2 or 3 are gathered in Jesus Christ's name.

 

[Albion]

Symbolism is important in scripture. We see that often and so it should not be dismissed.

I already agreed with you there. I called symbolism "meaningful" not something that should be dismissed. It still doesn't define church.

As to assembly I think you will find many will say when 2 or 3 are gathered in Jesus Christ's name.

Maybe, but I think that more people will say that this is the number needed for holding formal worship, not for there to be a church.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Maybe, but I think that more people will say that this is the number needed for holding formal worship, not for there to be a church.

I think we need to have Mass for it to be a Church. So when can we show the first Mass took place?

 

[JoabAnias]

I think we need to have Mass for it to be a Church. So when can we show the first Mass took place?

We have a precursor with the miracle of the loaves and fishes when the Lord sent the 12 to feed the masses then we have the Lord giving the bread of His body in John 6 where some departed and then the last supper.

It wasn't until after the decent of the Holy Spirit at the first Pentecost that the 12 began assembling on the Lords day breaking bread in memory of Him as seen in the book of Acts. Though they continued to frequent the synagogs until they were eventually expelled and forced out of Jerusalem.

Act 2:42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers.

Act 2:46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart:

Act 20:7 And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow. And he continued his speech until midnight.

1Co 5:8 Therefore, let us feast, not with the old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness: but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Peace.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Hello brothers and sisters in Christ,

I hope that this video will help all christians to be able to understand why we catholics beilieve all this about the mass and the holy sacrifice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm2Eqk9fkbg

peace and fellowship in Jesus our Lord and Savior

 

[vangelicmonk]

I am in agreement that it began at Pentacost as well. According to scripture that seems like the most Biblical explination. To say that the Exodus was a "typology" would be reasonable.

-Ted.

 

[Iosias]

Taking this off of another thread I thought this would be a good discussion . When Moses led the Isrealites out of Egypt was this the beginning of the Church? Was those who Moses led out of Egypt mixed or were they Isrealites?

The Church started with Adam.

 

[simonthezealot]

When were people called Christians?

After Pentecost.

At Antioch.

Acts 11:26 (New American Standard Bible)

New American Standard Bible (NASB) 26and when he had found him, he brought him to (A)Antioch And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and (B)the disciples were first called (C)Christians in (D)Antioch.

 

[CatholicFlame]

That is true that they were first called christians in Antioch, but of course they were Christians before they ever came up with the name.

The became the church when Jesus put them together as teh community that would spread the gospel to all the world. And they really did just that, and still are!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

That is true that they were first called christians in Antioch, but of course they were Christians before they ever came up with the name.

The became the church when Jesus put them together as teh community that would spread the gospel to all the world. And they really did just that, and still are!

Antioch...

Peter was the first Bishop and then the third Bishop was Irenaeus.

You forgot that "Catholic", as far as we know, was first coined in Antioch in a letter from Irenaeus around 100 AD.

I thought that was cool when I first heard it.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Jack you don't mean that you believe that they weren't the church before St. Paul came to preach at Antioch???


Maybe I am misunderstanding your last post

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Jack you don't mean that you believe that they weren't the church before St. Paul came to preach at Antioch???


Maybe I am misunderstanding your last post

You are misunderstanding me.

I was only stating that not only do we see the word Christian originating from Antioch but also the word Catholic.

Also I see the birth of the church when Jesus died on the cross and bleed from his side. Kind of a symetry to Adam giving from his side for Eve, Jesus giving from his side for his spouse the Church.

 

[JoabAnias]

I have seen the text of the Liturgy as written by St. Jerome from the 3rd century before and its almost identicle to what we have today. I just did an extensive search for it again but couldn't find it. Wish I had saved it now.

There is some great history here on the Liturgy of the Mass and here Historical roots of Catholic Eucharistic theology. Complete with early quotes proving the Church existed long before we were called Christians or Catholics and in fact upon Christs words that:

Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is advantageous for you that I should go; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you.

Joh 14:26 but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things

and then is witnessed to in the book of Acts:

Act 2:3 And tongues as of fire appeared to them, being distributed, and it sat on each one of them.

at the first Pentecost which brought to fulfillment the great commission to:

Act 1:8 But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.

Another thing I found in this search is that there are some great books about the subject like this one

The breaking of the bread now known as Mass by the Church as an institution from Jesus began immediately after the first Pentecost. (Though it did occur before as well while Jesus was still in the flesh walking with us).

The Marks of the Church


Peace.

 

[JoabAnias]

Antioch...

Peter was the first Bishop and then the third Bishop was Irenaeus.

You forgot that "Catholic", as far as we know, was first coined in Antioch in a letter from Irenaeus around 100 AD.

I thought that was cool when I first heard it.

I think you mean Ignatius bro.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

Irenaeus, wrote "Against Heresies", and died (A.D. 180).

Peace.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Indeed I believe the "great commision" given to the the church began at pentecost.

Jesus sadi to go out to all nations and preach the gospel and teach everyone to obey His commandments. Of course that is just waht happened starting at pentecost, when the power of the Holy Spirit descended upon them in tongues of fire and with the sound of a mighty rushing wind.

 

[CatholicFlame]

That is a very early letter of what the church should be doing. It looks like the frames of a house, the first columns to support the rest of the building.

The Church was truly built up since the day of Pentecost!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I think you mean Ignatius bro.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

Irenaeus, wrote "Against Heresies", and died (A.D. 180).

Peace.

LOL

Yeah I do that all the time. I do not know if it is because Ignatius and Irenaeus both start with an "I" or what. Usually I catch my error in my proof read but every once in awhile I make myself look foolish.

Thanks for catching that one.

 

[JoabAnias]

LOL

Yeah I do that all the time. I do not know if it is because Ignatius and Irenaeus both start with an "I" or what. Usually I catch my error in my proof read but every once in awhile I make myself look foolish.

Thanks for catching that one.

Honest mistake. I figured as much but just didn't want it to get confused or would have let it ride, besides it gave me an opportunity to paste the quote.

Peace.