When did Lucifer Fall?

[jhwatts]

My question is when did Lucifer fall? It was no doubt in the Garden of God but did it occur before the fall of man or after?

Isaiah 14 gives details of the account. Verse 12 states his fall.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Going further if we look at verse 25 we see God calls him “the Assyrian”. Does this mean his is of the city of Assyria or of the Assyrian people? Is Assyrian another name for the Lucifer. We see the Assyria (Assyrian Empire) was close to Eden in the Genesis account.

Genesis 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

If we read Ezekiel 31 we also see a description of his fall and we also him being referred to as the Assyrian.

Ezekiel 31:3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

The Ezekiel 31 account is also an account of the fall of the “Assyrian” in Eden. In verse 12 we see “the people of earth” and so I am drawing the conclusion that this is Adam and Eve and/or other people.

Ezekiel 31:12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.

We see in both accounts that the “nations” and “kingdoms” (Ezekiel 31:16 or Isaiah 14:16) shook at his fall. If there are nation then there must have been a lot “people of earth” or many other beings or "trees" to occupy these kingdoms and nations.

Any thoughts on when he fell? Was it before, during, or after Adam and Eve had fell?

 

[Colter]

My question is when did Lucifer fall? It was no doubt in the Garden of God but did it occur before the fall of man or after?

Isaiah 14 gives details of the account. Verse 12 states his fall.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Going further if we look at verse 25 we see God calls him “the Assyrian”. Does this mean his is of the city of Assyria or of the Assyrian people? Is Assyrian another name for the Lucifer.

Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

If we read Ezekiel 31 we also see a description of his fall and we also him being referred to as the Assyrian.

Ezekiel 31:3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

The Ezekiel 31 account is also an account of the fall of the “Assyrian” in Eden. In verse 12 we see “the people of earth” and so I am drawing the conclusion that this is Adam and Eve and/or other people.

Ezekiel 31:12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.

We see in both accounts that the “nations” and “kingdoms” (Ezekiel 31:16 or Isaiah 14:16) shook at his fall. If there are nation then there must have been a lot “people of earth” or many other beings or "trees" to occupy these kingdoms and nations.

Any thoughts on when he fell? Was it before, during, or after Adam and Eve had fell?

WOW! We both posted the same new thread about the fall of Satan at the same time?

Satan fell before Eve and Adam sinned. He was already evil when he suduced Eve into sin.

 

[Dave-W]

He fell from heaven which is outside of our time frame. So that question does not have an answer.

 

[jhwatts]

He fell from heaven which is outside of our time frame. So that question does not have an answer.

No. When in terms of mans fall?

 

[jhwatts]

WOW! We both posted the same new thread about the fall of Satan at the same time?

Satan fell before Eve and Adam sinned. He was already evil when he suduced Eve into sin.

WOW! We both posted the same new thread about the fall of Satan at the same time?

Satan fell before Eve and Adam sinned. He was already evil when he suduced Eve into sin.

That is a good point, as we see that the temptation performed by the serpent was a sin the exist before mans fall.

From the Ezekiel 31 we see "the people of earth" existed during the fall.

 

[Dave-W]

No. When in terms of mans fall?

Undefined. When was Christ crucified? In 33 ad, or before creation? Scripture supports both. It happened outside of our time line.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If you mean the Garden called Eden in Genesis - then I don't see how we can know it was doubtless in that Garden (I actually think it unlikely).

But what I think we can know is that it happened before Adam and Eve fell. Otherwise there would have been no tempter for them.

My question is when did Lucifer fall? It was no doubt in the Garden of God but did it occur before the fall of man or after?

Isaiah 14 gives details of the account. Verse 12 states his fall.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Going further if we look at verse 25 we see God calls him “the Assyrian”. Does this mean his is of the city of Assyria or of the Assyrian people? Is Assyrian another name for the Lucifer. We see the Assyria (Assyrian Empire) was close to Eden in the Genesis account.

Genesis 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

If we read Ezekiel 31 we also see a description of his fall and we also him being referred to as the Assyrian.

Ezekiel 31:3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

The Ezekiel 31 account is also an account of the fall of the “Assyrian” in Eden. In verse 12 we see “the people of earth” and so I am drawing the conclusion that this is Adam and Eve and/or other people.

Ezekiel 31:12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.

We see in both accounts that the “nations” and “kingdoms” (Ezekiel 31:16 or Isaiah 14:16) shook at his fall. If there are nation then there must have been a lot “people of earth” or many other beings or "trees" to occupy these kingdoms and nations.

Any thoughts on when he fell? Was it before, during, or after Adam and Eve had fell?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Undefined. When was Christ crucified? In 33 ad, or before creation? Scripture supports both. It happened outside of our time line.

This is true also ... I don't mean my reply to disagre with this.

 

[jhwatts]

If you mean the Garden called Eden in Genesis - then I don't see how we can know it was doubtless in that Garden (I actually think it unlikely).

The Garden as described in many scriptures including the ones I have provided. We should draw conclusion based on a single place in scripture but draw the conclusion made on many scripture through out scripture. In this not just Eden from Genesis but the ones from other like the ones such as Ezekiel 31, Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14, etc.

Its clear from Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 31 that its transpired in the Garden of God also called Eden in Ezekiel 31.

 

[jhwatts]

Undefined. When was Christ crucified? In 33 ad, or before creation? Scripture supports both. It happened outside of our time line.

So since it happen at time outside of our time line, is it same to assume that when it happened is of no consequence?

 

[Dave-W]

So since it happen at time outside of our time line, is it safe to assume that when it happened is of no consequence?

If I am reading your meaning right, I would agree.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The Garden as described in many scriptures including the ones I have provided. We should draw conclusion based on a single place in scripture but draw the conclusion made on many scripture through out scripture. In this not just Eden from Genesis but the ones from other like the ones such as Ezekiel 31, Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14, etc.

Its clear from Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 31 that its transpired in the Garden of God also called Eden in Ezekiel 31.

Actually, I don't agree with your conclusion, but I'm not really interested to argue.

Just curious then ... are you reading that Satan was "cast down" from out of Eden, and that maybe as the result of the temptation of Eve? How do you relate the leading of a revolt among the angels with that? Just curious.

As far as my own thoughts, I think some things we are given to know, some not, and while we could speculate on those things we don't know, I myself wouldn't argue them. So I'm not looking to argue with you. Just curious what you think, if you care to share. I'm sure others would be happy to give their points of view in agreement or disagreement, as the case may be.

 

[brinny]

My question is when did Lucifer fall? It was no doubt in the Garden of God but did it occur before the fall of man or after?

Isaiah 14 gives details of the account. Verse 12 states his fall.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Going further if we look at verse 25 we see God calls him “the Assyrian”. Does this mean his is of the city of Assyria or of the Assyrian people? Is Assyrian another name for the Lucifer. We see the Assyria (Assyrian Empire) was close to Eden in the Genesis account.

Genesis 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

If we read Ezekiel 31 we also see a description of his fall and we also him being referred to as the Assyrian.

Ezekiel 31:3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

The Ezekiel 31 account is also an account of the fall of the “Assyrian” in Eden. In verse 12 we see “the people of earth” and so I am drawing the conclusion that this is Adam and Eve and/or other people.

Ezekiel 31:12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.

We see in both accounts that the “nations” and “kingdoms” (Ezekiel 31:16 or Isaiah 14:16) shook at his fall. If there are nation then there must have been a lot “people of earth” or many other beings or "trees" to occupy these kingdoms and nations.

Any thoughts on when he fell? Was it before, during, or after Adam and Eve had fell?

It would've been BEFORE Adam and Eve, and BEFORE Adam and Eve fell. He was already a "tempter" before Adam and Eve were tempted. What is of note, is that he was "cast down" as light'ning. It is also interesting that Jesus Christ saw it happen and gives His own account of what He witnessed.

 

[Colter]

Adam and Eve arrived on the earth (incarnate from heaven) after the earth had fallen. The earth was already populated (Cain fears those out in the world).

Death was already on the earth, however Adam and Eve, who had immortality status, use of “the tree of life” , lost that for themselves specifically when the sinned also.

Our world has suffered a double default.

 

[Yekcidmij]

My question is when did Lucifer fall? It was no doubt in the Garden of God but did it occur before the fall of man or after?

Isaiah 14 gives details of the account. Verse 12 states his fall.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Going further if we look at verse 25 we see God calls him “the Assyrian”. Does this mean his is of the city of Assyria or of the Assyrian people? Is Assyrian another name for the Lucifer. We see the Assyria (Assyrian Empire) was close to Eden in the Genesis account.

Isaiah 14 is specifically about the king of Babylon:

Is 14:4 you will taunt the king of Babylon with these words:
14:22 “....I will blot out all remembrance of Babylon and destroy all her people

Isaiah 14 isn't a systematic theology about the fall of Satan; it's a prophecy against the king of Babylon.

 

[jhwatts]

It would've been BEFORE Adam and Eve, and BEFORE Adam and Eve fell. He was already a "tempter" before Adam and Eve were tempted. What is of note, is that he was "cast down" as light'ning. It is also interesting that Jesus Christ saw it happen and gives His own account of what He witnessed.

That is a very good point (Luke 10:18). The question is, when did he see him fall?

We see that in verse 23 that one that is being described here is Christ. He was the only one that was with the Father from the beginning. Notice he was with the sons of men on earth. This must be in Eden. This would make since he witnessed the fall described in Ezekiel 31 and Isaiah 14.

Proverbs 8: (22-31) 22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

 

[brinny]

That is a very good point (Luke 10:18). The question is, when did he see him fall?

We see that in verse 23 that one that is being described here is Christ. He was the only one that was with the Father from the beginning. Notice he was with the sons of men on earth. This must be in Eden. This would make since he witnessed the fall described in Ezekiel 31 and Isaiah 14.

Proverbs 8: (22-31) 22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

When Jesus describes Lucifer being cast down as light'ning, he was describing it as from above. Jesus witnessed it. But not from here on earth.

 

[Yekcidmij]

That is a very good point (Luke 10:18). The question is, when did he see him fall?

Seems to be connected to the mission of the 72.

 

[Colter]

Isaiah 14 is specifically about the king of Babylon:

Is 14:4 you will taunt the king of Babylon with these words:
14:22 “....I will blot out all remembrance of Babylon and destroy all her people

Isaiah 14 isn't a systematic theology about the fall of Satan; it's a prophecy against the king of Babylon.

Some theologians see an implication that Lucifer was in truth running Babylon.

 

[jhwatts]

Adam and Eve arrived on the earth (incarnate from heaven) after the earth had fallen. The earth was already populated (Cain fears those out in the world).

Death was already on the earth, however Adam and Eve, who had immortality status, use of “the tree of life” , lost that for themselves specifically when the sinned also.

Our world has suffered a double default.

I would probably disagree with you because those that Cain feared was not out the world but to a place where he would perceive his face would be hid from God.

If we look carefully at,

Ezekiel 31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

and,

Proverbs 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Ask the question, where are the inhabitable parts of the earth?

Notice through out Genesis 1:2 - Genesis 2:3 that the dominion of man is alway and everything discussed as "upon the earth".

Now lets look at,

Genesis 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Now, if Cain was driven from the "face of the earth" to "in the earth", who was there for him to be afraid of? The children of men in the nether parts of the earth. These are not the same as the "people of earth" either.