When did empty space, matter, energy, come into existence?

[Assyrian]

While even the YECs have to struggle with this text, it remains quite hard to get away from a surface text: six days is equivalent to six earth revolutions. The measure of time having been instituted before there were revolutions of earth to coincide with them.

Odd how your idea of surface text reads Genesis as if it was speaking Copernican cosmology, which came in thousands of years after the text was written.

You seem to be reading the text from a very different cultural perspective, not realising the cultural baggage you bring into its interpretation, and thinking your interpretation is the surface text.

Isn't it possible that Moses had a better understanding of what Genesis meant when he wrote Psalm 90 and told us about God's days, than your modern culture laden concept of surface text?

 

[busterdog]

Odd how your idea of surface text reads Genesis as if it was speaking Copernican cosmology, which came in thousands of years after the text was written.

You seem to be reading the text from a very different cultural perspective, not realising the cultural baggage you bring into its interpretation, and thinking your interpretation is the surface text.

Isn't it possible that Moses had a better understanding of what Genesis meant when he wrote Psalm 90 and told us about God's days, than your modern culture laden concept of surface text?

What can I say. I was indoctrined by the Beatles.

#9
#9
#9
#9
#9
#9
"Revoution" #9

 

[Assyrian]

[pong]You say you want an evolutioooon....[/pong]

 

[busterdog]

[pong]You say you want an evolutioooon....[/pong]

"Well, you know
You'd better free your mind instead"

Touche!

 

[epyon]

Around 13.7 billion years.

 

[Assyrian]

"Well, you know
You'd better free your mind instead"

Touche!

When we were talking about how your perceptions were tied up with cultural baggage?

 

[busterdog]

When we were talking about how your perceptions were tied up with cultural baggage?

Let it never be said that I ever denied having baggage!

 

[StevenMerten]

This agreement did not always exist. Numerous philosophies and theologies assume the universe is eternal, extending into infinite past and future. Until big bang cosmology came along, science acted as though the universe was eternal too. For without the big bang, there is no scientific way to support the finite existence (temporally or spatially) of the universe.

Hello gluadys,

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I have been busy.

Would infinite past and infinite future equal "eternal" existance of the physical time? I believe our spiritual God is eternal but infinite past and infinite future are not eternal.

If our eternal God created infinite past and infinite future thousands of years ago, would that make infinite past and infinite future "eternal"?

God is eternal and exists outside of physical time which He created. I think we would agree that it could be considered a scientific fact that God can see the future. We have ancient Old Testament prophecies coming true in Jesus Christ.

How can science or theology ever equate infinite physical past as being "eternal" as our spiritual God, who exists outside of physical time and created physical time, is eternal?

I will study more of what you have posted latter. I have to run. Take care and God bless.

 

[gluadys]

Hello gluadys,

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I have been busy.

Would infinite past and infinite future equal "eternal" existance of the physical time?

Most people would not see a difference between infinite time and eternity.

I believe our spiritual God is eternal but infinite past and infinite future are not eternal.

But I think I see what you are getting at. Infinite time is still time, and eternity is timeless, so they are not quite the same thing.

However, ever since Einstein, we have understood time to be a property of space: the space-time continuum. Time measures movement and movement is a change of position in the space-time continuum. So without space, energy or matter, there is no time either. Hence, under big bang theory, time is not infinite.

Furthermore, traditional Christian theology denies an infinite past and an infinite future to a temporal world. The temporal world had a beginning a finite time ago and will have an end a finite time in the future. When it ends, all will be subsumed into eternity.

If our eternal God created infinite past and infinite future thousands of years ago, would that make infinite past and infinite future "eternal"?

No, since eternity is timeless and infinite time is still time. But the basic problem here is that neither Christian theology nor science allow for time to be infinite.

The idea of God creating past time (whether infinite or not) thousands of years ago is also very problematical. It sounds like an "appearance of age" or Omphalos argument aka last Thursdayism. (You can check out those terms on google if you are unfamiliar with them.) Most Christian theology rejects the concept because it effectively turns God into a deceiver whose creation cannot be relied on to be a trustworthy revelation.

I think we would agree that it could be considered a scientific fact that God can see the future.

No, to be a scientific fact one would need evidence of God and God is beyond scientific observation. That doesn't mean it is not a fact that God can see the future. Just not a fact that has or can have scientific support.

We have ancient Old Testament prophecies coming true in Jesus Christ.

We have OT prophecies which were interpreted after the fact to apply to Christ. Again, this doesn't mean those interpretations were necessarily wrong.

But it does mean this is not scientific evidence. You can do the same sort of thing with astrology (say after the fact that event B is a fulfillment of prediction A) and I don't think many Christians or scientists would accept that as evidence that astrology works.

 

[StevenMerten]

Most people would not see a difference between infinite time and eternity.

But I think I see what you are getting at. Infinite time is still time, and eternity is timeless, so they are not quite the same thing.

However, ever since Einstein, we have understood time to be a property of space: the space-time continuum. Time measures movement and movement is a change of position in the space-time continuum. So without space, energy or matter, there is no time either. Hence, under big bang theory, time is not infinite.

Hello gluadys,

In Mark 12 Jesus talks about the interaction between physical world "time" and spiritual world existence. Jesus, before His death and ressurection (in physical time), tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead waiting to rise from the dead, but alive in heaven (spiritual world). Moses and Elisha (spritual world) also visit Jesus before His death and ressurection (physical time).

We know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can only go to heaven (spiritual world), through the death of Jesus, a specific point in physical time which had not happened yet in the physical world "time". We know that, "Time measures movement and movement is a change of position in the space-time continuum", only effects the physical world not the spiritual world. We know that saints in heaven (spiritual world) are not bound, limited or controled by physical time (physical world) in any way. "time" is an attribute of the physical world and has no control or effect on the spiritual world.

Would you agree that the thrust of Jesus teaching to the Sadducees, about the Power of God, is that our spiritual eternal God exists outside of physical time in the spiritual world and that saints born into eternal life in the spiritual world also exist outside of physical time and that physical time has no effect on our spiritual world God or the spiritual world saints?

Abraham, upon his death, crossed over from the physical world at a specific point in physical time to the spiritual world, where he exists outside of physical time. Abraham, in the spiritual world, can be present at any point in physical time, even infinite past, because he, as a saint in the spiritual world is not bound by physical time.

Creation is similiar to Abraham's crossover interaction bettween physical world to spiritual world, but the reverse direction. Where saints cross over into eternal life, at Christ's death on the cross, where they live outside of physical time and unrestricted to all of past, present and future, physical time, God Who lives outside of physical time, poured forth all of physical time, both infinite past and infinite future physical time, from a specific point in physical time, at the time of Adam.

Do you agree that our spiritual God, and saints in the spiritual world, live outside of and unrestricted by physical time, physical time which is only an attribute of the physical world (movement and change between empty space, matter, energy and strings) and physical time is not an attribute of the spiritual world?

Would you agree that a, spiritual world/physical world, interaction from God, Who exists outside of and Omni-Present to the whole of physical time, can bring infinite past and infinite future physical time into existance at a specific point in physical time, similiar to Abraham, who at a specific point in physical time, crosses over from the physical world, where he is bound by time, to the spiritual world, where he exists outside of, and unrestricted by, physical time?

Would you agree that God who exists outside of and unrestricted by physical time, "Time measures movement and movement is a change of position in the space-time continuum" (physical world, not spiritual world), canbring infinite past and infinite future physical time into existence at any point in physical time which He chooses?
NAB MAR 12:18

Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question ...\\...12:24 Jesus said: "You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob'? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken." ​

NAB LUK 20:37

Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him. ​

​

​

 

[gluadys]

Would you agree that God who exists outside of and unrestricted by physical time, "Time measures movement and movement is a change of position in the space-time continuum" (physical world, not spiritual world), canbring infinite past and infinite future physical time into existence at any point in physical time which He chooses?
NAB MAR 12:18

Brief answer: no.

Long-winded answer:

I think you are quite right to make a distinction between physical existence and spiritual existence. However, there are two problems with what you are saying.

First, you seem to be suggesting that just as there is physical time in the physical world, there is an analog we can call spiritual time in the spiritual world. However, this is to make the same error I mentioned in my last post. It is to equate timeless eternity with infinite time. No amount of time amounts to timelessness, not even infinite time. The spiritual realm is one in which we experience eternity, not infinite time, not even infinite spiritual time.

God is truly outside of time. Eternity is truly outside of time. It does not have a time of its own. Eternity is timeless, experienced as a single, ever-present "now". It is best, IMO, to visualise the single moment of eternity as embracing all the moments of physical time. With this in mind it is meaningless to say that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob cannot go to heaven before the moment in physical time when Jesus died on the cross. That is only true in physical time, but in the spiritual realm, the death of Abraham did not precede the death of Jesus. Both occurred in the same moment, the only moment of eternity. (This is why in Revelation, John can also say that Jesus is the Lamb slain "from the foundation of the world". In eternity, the founding of the world, and the death of Jesus occurred in the same instant, even though in the physical time stream these events are billions of years apart.)

Secondly, once we understand that eternity is truly timeless, and that time only exists on the physical plane, then it follows that there is no infinite time at all. The physical world is finite. It had a temporal beginning a finite time ago and will have a temporal end a finite time in the future. And outside of that finite stream of physical time there is no time at all. So there is no infinite past or infinite future. There is physical time which is finite and there is eternity which is timeless.

Does that make sense to you?

 

[StevenMerten]

Brief answer: no.

Long-winded answer:

I think you are quite right to make a distinction between physical existence and spiritual existence. However, there are two problems with what you are saying.

First, you seem to be suggesting that just as there is physical time in the physical world, there is an analog we can call spiritual time in the spiritual world. However, this is to make the same error I mentioned in my last post. It is to equate timeless eternity with infinite time. No amount of time amounts to timelessness, not even infinite time. The spiritual realm is one in which we experience eternity, not infinite time, not even infinite spiritual time.

God is truly outside of time. Eternity is truly outside of time. It does not have a time of its own. Eternity is timeless, experienced as a single, ever-present "now". It is best, IMO, to visualise the single moment of eternity as embracing all the moments of physical time. With this in mind it is meaningless to say that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob cannot go to heaven before the moment in physical time when Jesus died on the cross. That is only true in physical time, but in the spiritual realm, the death of Abraham did not precede the death of Jesus. Both occurred in the same moment, the only moment of eternity. (This is why in Revelation, John can also say that Jesus is the Lamb slain "from the foundation of the world". In eternity, the founding of the world, and the death of Jesus occurred in the same instant, even though in the physical time stream these events are billions of years apart.)

Secondly, once we understand that eternity is truly timeless, and that time only exists on the physical plane, then it follows that there is no infinite time at all. The physical world is finite. It had a temporal beginning a finite time ago and will have a temporal end a finite time in the future. And outside of that finite stream of physical time there is no time at all. So there is no infinite past or infinite future. There is physical time which is finite and there is eternity which is timeless.

Does that make sense to you?

Hello glaudys,

I am glad we agree that time is only a function of the physical world and not the spritual world. Our spiritual eternal God exists outside of time. We in the physical world live under the confines of time.

The saints, such as Abraham, cross over from the physical world to the spiritual world, through, let us call it, a port hole, between the two existences. Some people do not cross over from the physical world into eternal life. It is this port hole between the physical world and the spiritual world that we are interested in.

Creation of the physical world also comes through this port hole between spiritual and physical existence.

We know when, in physical time, Abraham crosses over from the physical world into the spiritual world (where this port hole exists in physical time). Now the question is, at what point in physical time did God's creation flow forth from the spritual world into the physical world through a similiar port hole?

It is the place in physical time, the port hole through which creation flows into the physical world from the spritual world, that we are looking for. Do you agree?

 

[gluadys]

Hello glaudys,

I am glad we agree that time is only a function of the physical world and not the spritual world. Our spiritual eternal God exists outside of time. We in the physical world live under the confines of time.

The saints, such as Abraham, cross over from the physical world to the spiritual world, through, let us call it, a port hole, between the two existences. Some people do not cross over from the physical world into eternal life. It is this port hole between the physical world and the spiritual world that we are interested in.

Creation of the physical world also comes through this port hole between spiritual and physical existence.

We know when, in physical time, Abraham crosses over from the physical world into the spiritual world (where this port hole exists in physical time). Now the question is, at what point in physical time did God's creation flow forth from the spritual world into the physical world through a similiar port hole?

And the answer is 13.7 billion years ago.

It is the place in physical time, the port hole through which creation flows into the physical world from the spritual world, that we are looking for. Do you agree?

Yes.

 

[StevenMerten]

And the answer is 13.7 billion years ago.

Yes.

Hello gluadys,

"Because science says so!" is this your answer?

I think we agree that science has no proof, nor do many scientists believe, that there was nothing, no empty space, no strings, no energy existing before the "big bang". The very scentific concept of the physical existence of strings before the "big bang" tells us that even science does not see the big bang as being preceeded by nothing physical. Nothing, no strings, branes, empty space, energy, is the era preceeding God's creation. If something physical exists before what a deciever is terming (God's) "creation" then this is not God's creation.

The key factor is that the big bang is the starting point about our knowledge of the universe. Whatever state existed "before" the big bang (though "before" is not the correct term) is unknowable. But scientists readily speculate on what it might have been, hence all the ideas about strings and 'branes, etc...

...But this does not mean that some sort of originating state could not exist which formed the conditions for the big bang to occur. We just can't tell if such a state existed or discover its properties.

Does science have proof that strings and branes flow out into past existence from a spiritual world to physical world port hole 13.7 billion years ago as you are indicating?

Why would science pick 13.7 billion years ago as the port hole between the spiritual and physical world through which God created strings, branes and empty space, possibly, trillions of years into the past? Why would not science simply agree that they do not know when God, who exists outside of and has complete power and control over creation and physical time, brought all of past existence, including strings and branes which existed before the big bang, into existence? Why would science pick 13.7 billion years ago, rather than the time of Adam, as to when trillions of years of physical existence (when we include physical strings and branes which existed before the big bang) flowed forth from the Power of God's Hand?

What proof does science have that God created strings, branes and empty space into, possibly, trillions of years of past existance or more, at what they define as (God's) "creation" 13.7 billion years ago?

What do you think?

 

[KerrMetric]

13.7 was not picked out of someones rear end.

 

[Jadis40]

13.7 was not picked out of someones rear end.

Exactly.

There is a lot of scientific study that comes up with the figure of 13.7 billion years.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101age.html

and

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html

also

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article374.html

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I think we agree that science has no proof, nor do many scientists believe, that there was nothing, no empty space, no strings, no energy existing before the "big bang". The very scentific concept of the physical existence of strings before the "big bang" tells us that even science does not see the big bang as being preceeded by nothing physical. Nothing, no strings, branes, empty space, energy, is the era preceeding God's creation. If something physical exists before what a deciever is terming (God's) "creation" then this is not God's creation.

For all intents and purposes, what occured "before" the point singularity cannot be known after the point singularity, and equally, what ever was happening "before" the point singularity, has no effect after the singularity.

Your premise is flawed on a number of levels. All I can do, once again, is ask you and anyone else who thinks "before" the Big Bang produces some sort of philosophical conundrum, to study as much of the appropriate physics as possible.

"Brief History of Time", Hawking,

"Hyperspace" Michio Kaku,

or even "A Brief History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson, will give you some direction on this

 

[gluadys]

Hello gluadys,

"Because science says so!" is this your answer?

No. Because the evidence leads to this conclusion.

I think we agree that science has no proof, nor do many scientists believe, that there was nothing, no empty space, no strings, no energy existing before the "big bang".

Of course not. There is no "before the big bang". "Before the big bang" is a meaningless concept since time began with the big bang. You can't have any "before" preceeding the existence of time.

The very scentific concept of the physical existence of strings before the "big bang" tells us that even science does not see the big bang as being preceeded by nothing physical.

Science may posit initial conditions which are physical, but they don't precede the big bang because there is no time outside of the universe created by the big bang. I realize it is very difficult to get one's head around the idea of timelessness. But you have to get clear that you can only have a "before", one thing can only "precede" another, within the stream of time. So once you get back to the beginning of time, there is no "before", there is no order of precedence.

The same problem exists with spatial dimensions as well. We understand that the universe is expanding, and our normal imagination leads us to think of it expanding into space. But wait a minute. All space is within the universe. There is no space for the universe to expand into because all the space is already part of the universe. It is getting bigger, but not filling any space outside of the universe, because there is no space outside of the universe. Even the concept "outside the universe" is nonsensical, just as "before the beginning of time" is nonsensical.

Nothing, no strings, branes, empty space, energy, is the era preceeding God's creation. If something physical exists before what a deciever is terming (God's) "creation" then this is not God's creation.

See above. There is no era preceeding God's creation. There is only timelessness in which there is no order of precedence. Time came into existence with creation.

Does science have proof that strings and branes flow out into past existence from a spiritual world to physical world port hole 13.7 billion years ago as you are indicating?

Science has no evidence concerning anything spiritual. It does not have the capacity to deal with spiritual realities. It deals solely with the physical realities of creation.

Why would science pick 13.7 billion years ago as the port hole between the spiritual and physical world through which God created strings, branes and empty space, possibly, trillions of years into the past?

Well, science doesn't think in terms of your porthole analogy since it doesn't deal with spiritual realities. But it "picked" 13.7 billion years ago as the beginning of the physical universe because of a)the mathematics of the big bang theory and b) the evidence confirming the accuracy of the mathematics. In particular, evidence confirming a prediction of big bang theory that was not explicable by any other theory.

Why would not science simply agree that they do not know when God, who exists outside of and has complete power and control over creation and physical time, brought all of past existence, including strings and branes which existed before the big bang, into existence?

Because scientists do have evidence of when the physical universe began. It makes sense, if one is a theist, to say that God brought the universe into existence at the moment it began. To suggest otherwise is to propose the Omphalos theory. If that is taken seriously, we could just as well say the universe began last Thursday and only looks as if it began 13.7 billion years ago. If the Omphalos theory is correct, you can pick any number from a hat and say the universe started then.

It is far more parsimonious to hold that the universe began at the time it appears to have begun. Why pick any different time? And why pick a particular time among all the different times available?

Why would science pick 13.7 billion years ago, rather than the time of Adam, as to when trillions of years of physical existence (when we include physical strings and branes which existed before the big bang) flowed forth from the Power of God's Hand?

There is no trillions of years. There are no years at all until time begins and time began with the big bang 13.7 billion years ago. So that is all the time that has ever been. (Unless there are other universes which have their own time frames.)

What proof does science have that God created strings, branes and empty space into, possibly, trillions of years of past existance or more, at what they define as (God's) "creation" 13.7 billion years ago?

Science has no proof that God created anything at all or even that God exists. It does have evidence that the universe (including time) came into existence 13.7 billion years ago.