When Are Christians Going To Realize . . .

[KCKID]

When are Christians going to realize that NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE is there any such zeal aimed at a specific sin as that (the perceived sin of same-sex sex) which MANY CHRISTIANS claim to be 'the sin of sins'? It's true! While there may be scriptures that apply a negative view of same-sex sex it is NEVER singled out as being any 'worse' than the myriad of 'other sins' that the Bible speaks of. In fact, if there IS a greater sin than any other it is the sin of pride. If there IS a greater sin than any other it would involve certain HETEROSEXUAL practices that, by comparison, Christians ignore.

When are Christians going to realize that the repetetive quoting of selective scriptures presented in a self-righteous manner or otherwise are NOT going to make a 'gay' person 'straight'? When are they going to realize that by doing so they are, inadvertantly or not, telling a 'gay' person that they are not only unworthy human beings in their 'present state' but they are also 'demon possessed'? When are they going to realize that people become very defensive when they are continually told that they are basically 'scum'?

To the 'straight' Christian ...how would you feel if you were continually bomarded with scriptures - and there are probably MANY - that negatively 'describe' you? You would, of course, need to take ownership of these scriptures which, I feel, many of you would be reluctant to do. Christianity doesn't seem to work that way. Religion often results in a self-righteous and condemning attitude. Jesus spoke about this and likewise CONDEMNED it. Christians/people in general seem to be all too ready to apply labels to others but what about their OWN particular label? It might be 'hypocrite' (Jesus had MUCH to say about you if you take ownership of this particular 'sin') or it may be 'sanctimomious' (ditto) or it may be something else specific and personal to you.

While I realize that this IS a subforum devoted to the issue of homosexuality, why IS there more Christian zeal behind the condemnation of homosexuality than ANY OTHER 'perceived sin'? If such a subforum existed on Divorce and Remarriage, for instance (an issue spoken and disapproved of by Jesus Himself), I really can't imagine it going the distance. There is certainly something MORE SPECIAL about homosexuality than ANY OTHER issue.

Why?

 

[bsd13]

You claim Christian as your faith yet you use words like "perceived" sin. Maybe I got lost somewhere along the way, but how is it a perceived sin? Does God or does God not tell us in his Holy Word that it is a sin? We need to start on that common ground at least. So we will agree that it IS A SIN not because we say it is, but because God says it is.

As to why people single it out more than any others I've often wondered that myself. Many people like to point out it is an abomination to God (which apparently is more grievous an attack upon God's good name than other types of sin). Some will also point out because it is a sexual sin it is against your own body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

But the technicalities of it don't matter. What matters is that God has said it is sin and he's God and we're not so therefor it is sin.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

While I have a problem with the title of your thread, because you lump ALL Christians in together, I have to agree that in these forums I have noticed that there seems to be a definite majority of those who either feel homosexuality is not a sin at all or who treat as the worst sin of all.

I believe that homosexuality is a sin. As is adultery, drunkenness, pride, lust, and flipping off the guy that just cut me off. My reading of the Bible tells me that none of those are any worse than the others. The pastor of my church agrees. I would hope that we are not in the minority, and that the small, insular world of CF is not reflective of the Christian community at large.

My interpretation of Scripture is that the only sin that trumps them all is that saying that something of God, namely Jesus, is of the devil.

We are all unworthy - hence the need for a Saviour.

 

[KCKID]

You claim Christian as your faith yet you use words like "perceived" sin. Maybe I got lost somewhere along the way, but how is it a perceived sin? Does God or does God not tell us in his Holy Word that it is a sin? We need to start on that common ground at least. So we will agree that it IS A SIN not because we say it is, but because God says it is.

I'm afraid you DID get lost along the way. I say 'perceived' sin because the Bible never calls 'homosexuality' as such a sin. The Bible (apparently) refers to 'sodomy' as being an 'abomination' but not 'homosexuality'. If you check out the KJV you will not see the word 'homosexual' at all. It's only the later editions of the Bible which may have incorrectly replaced the word 'sodomy' for the more modern word 'homosexual'.

Homosexuality does NOT automatically equate to sodomy and therefore is not THE 'abomination' spoken of in the Bible. Homosexuality per se is the sexual attraction of one person toward another of the same gender. So, it's highly offensive to label a homosexual person as being a 'sodomizer' and this is what many Christians do with a flair. Surely one does not need to be a Rhodes Scholar to follow my line of thought.

Therefore, homosexuality is seen by many Christians as a 'perceived' sin.

As to why people single it out more than any others I've often wondered that myself. Many people like to point out it is an abomination to God (which apparently is more grievous an attack upon God's good name than other types of sin). Some will also point out because it is a sexual sin it is against your own body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.

If you don't keep the 7th-day Sabbath (Friday sunset - Saturday sunset) then you are committing an abomination. Yes, Christians will argue until the cows come home that the Sabbath command is no longer binding but it's STILL the 4th-commandment of the Big Ten. Lying (which most of us do in some form or another) is an abomination. I could go on and on - but I won't - as to the abominations toward God that Christians turn a blind eye to and those on which they target. Homosexuality (as in sodomy but Christians paint 'gays' with the same broad brush) is their favorite 'abomination'!

But the technicalities of it don't matter. What matters is that God has said it is sin and he's God and we're not so therefor it is sin.

See, you have the mind-set that homosexuality is a sin. You've probably been taught since day one that it is a sin so therefore IT IS. And, no matter how many times that one may try to explain to you that homosexuality per se is NOT a sin it will probably not register. This is why we're covering the same ground endlessly on this subforum. Besides, NO ONE unless they are without blemish can come on to a forum to talk about someone else's sins. "There is NONE righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10)."

Many Christians - some on this forum - don't believe that text, of course!

 

[KCKID]

While I have a problem with the title of your thread, because you lump ALL Christians in together, I have to agree that in these forums I have noticed that there seems to be a definite majority of those who either feel homosexuality is not a sin at all or who treat as the worst sin of all.

I believe that homosexuality is a sin. As is adultery, drunkenness, pride, lust, and flipping off the guy that just cut me off. My reading of the Bible tells me that none of those are any worse than the others. The pastor of my church agrees. I would hope that we are not in the minority, and that the small, insular world of CF is not reflective of the Christian community at large.

My interpretation of Scripture is that the only sin that trumps them all is that saying that something of God, namely Jesus, is of the devil.

We are all unworthy - hence the need for a Saviour.

Please read my response above.

I normally say 'the majority of' or 'many' or 'some' or 'most' when referring to what Christians believe. I just assume after a while that folks will know that I'm generalizing and that I'm not implying that EVERY Christian believes the same. Having said that, I don't know too many Christians who would NOT be condemning of homosexuals.

 

[katautumn]

And yet they can never come up with an answer when confronted with the question, "why do you have such an unhealthy fixation with gay sex?"

 

[bsd13]

I'm afraid you DID get lost along the way. I say 'perceived' sin because the Bible never calls 'homosexuality' as such a sin. The Bible (apparently) refers to 'sodomy' as being an 'abomination' but not 'homosexuality'. If you check out the KJV you will not see the word 'homosexual' at all. It's only the later editions of the Bible which may have incorrectly replaced the word 'sodomy' for the more modern word 'homosexual'.

Homosexuality does NOT automatically equate to sodomy and therefore is not THE 'abomination' spoken of in the Bible. Homosexuality per se is the sexual attraction of one person toward another of the same gender. So, it's highly offensive to label a homosexual person as being a 'sodomizer' and this is what many Christians do with a flair. Surely one does not need to be a Rhodes Scholar to follow my line of thought.

Therefore, homosexuality is seen by many Christians as a 'perceived' sin.



If you don't keep the 7th-day Sabbath (Friday sunset - Saturday sunset) then you are committing an abomination. Yes, Christians will argue until the cows come home that the Sabbath command is no longer binding but it's STILL the 4th-commandment of the Big Ten. Lying (which most of us do in some form or another) is an abomination. I could go on and on - but I won't - as to the abominations toward God that Christians turn a blind eye to and those on which they target. Homosexuality (as in sodomy but Christians paint 'gays' with the same broad brush) is their favorite 'abomination'!



See, you have the mind-set that homosexuality is a sin. You've probably been taught since day one that it is a sin so therefore IT IS. And, no matter how many times that one may try to explain to you that homosexuality per se is NOT a sin it will probably not register. This is why we're covering the same ground endlessly on this subforum. Besides, NO ONE unless they are without blemish can come on to a forum to talk about someone else's sins. "There is NONE righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10)."

Many Christians - some on this forum - don't believe that text, of course!

How's your attempt at rewriting the Bible going for you? Because that's exactly what you are trying to do. Rewrite it so it says what you want it to say.

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable - Leviticus 18:22

detestable

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. - Leviticus 18:24-25

If lying with a man as you would lie with a woman is not a sin how come God's admonishment that it is detestable is in a list of other things he tells them not to do and then is quickly followed with the warning that he punished the land for its sin because it was defiled?

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads - Leviticus 20:13

For the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23

If lying with a man as one lies with a woman is not a sin why has God ordered they be put to death? The word of the Lord says that the wages of sin is death...

The word sodomy has very little to do with homosexuality in the Bible. Qadesh was the original word and it means a male prostitute. But the issue isn't sodomy, it is homosexuality and no matter how hard you try you can't deny that the Bible says (paraphrased) "man shall not lie with man and if he does he will be put to death"

 

[katautumn]

If lying with a man as you would lie with a woman is not a sin how come God's admonishment that it is detestable is in a list of other things he tells them not to do and then is quickly followed with the warning that he punished the land for its sin because it was defiled?

If lying with a man as one lies with a woman is not a sin why has God ordered they be put to death?

It was a crime punishable by death in early Judaic culture, just as not observing the Sabbath and committing the act of fornication were.

The word of the Lord says that the wages of sin is death...

Meaning eternal separation from God. Not necessarily literal death. That verse pertains to a spiritual death.

The word sodomy has very little to do with homosexuality in the Bible. Qadesh was the original word and it means a male prostitute. But the issue isn't sodomy, it is homosexuality and no matter how hard you try you can't deny that the Bible says (paraphrased) "man shall not lie with man and if he does he will be put to death"

So should we execute gays and lesbians in today's society? After all, it's Biblical.

 

[bsd13]

It was a crime punishable by death in early Judaic culture, just as not observing the Sabbath and committing the act of fornication were.

And anyone who isn't saved by the blood of Christ is still under the law. Grace or law that's the only two options.

Meaning eternal separation from God. Not necessarily literal death. That verse pertains to a spiritual death.

Yep, it is referring to spiritual death. That's what I was talking about. Homosexual relations, if you are under the law (not saved) will be punished by death (separation).

So should we execute gays and lesbians in today's society? After all, it's Biblical.

If I say yes you will label me a monster. If I say no you will label me a hypocrite. Instead I will answer from the Bible -

It is mine to avenge; I will repay - Deuteronomy 32:35

In other words it is for God to decide how to avenge and how to repay. If he wants them put to death in the natural he will put in motion a change of the modern day laws. In the meanwhile we are told to obey the laws of the land.

 

[KCKID]

And yet they can never come up with an answer when confronted with the question, "why do you have such an unhealthy fixation with gay sex?"

You may or may not know this but in the majority of cases is has little or NOTHING to do with the Bible! The Bible is frequently used as an 'excuse' for one's personal (and oftentimes discriminatory) viewpoints. Furthermore, the intellectually honest will probably agree with me.

This (dishonesty) is one of the things that urks me about this topic. Dishonesty is an abomination to God. Strange how selective we are with our 'abominations' isn't it?

 

[katautumn]

The Bible is frequently used as an 'excuse' for one's personal (and oftentimes discriminatory) viewpoints.

You're absolutely correct. It's an unfortunate truth. It's unfortunate how many Christians refuse to apply the Bible in their lives (because they can always use the handy excuse, "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" to cover up their mean-spirited words) and instead use it as a weapon.

In terms of a personal relationship with Jesus, Christians should use the Bible as a means to reflect on their own lives. Instead many use it to beat people over the head to make them feel worthless and insecure. Individual understanding of the Scriptures should be personal, not used to dole out unsolicited condemnation and judgment.

Unfortunately, the Bible is one of the few books a person can hide behind whilst treating others disrespectfully and get away with it. People think, "Oh, it's in the Bible. That must make this person right!" Try perverting a text like the Koran to do and say unspeakable things. Then you have half of Western civilization pointing fingers and screaming, "see! See! I told you Islam was a religion of violence and hatred!" Or try using "Mein Kempf" as the basis of your actions toward others. You'd be automatically be labeled as a hatemonger, and rightfully so (even by many Christians). And yet it's deemed perfectly acceptable to use the Bible as a cloak of protection when acting in a discriminatory fashion against others.

People just need to be honest. I'd have a lot more respect for someone if they said, "yes, I argue against homosexuality because I secretly struggle with gay tendencies" or "yeah, I can't stop talking about how gays are sinful and an abomination because really I hate them. Not their sin. I literally hate the sinner." This whole, "well, I love the sinner, but hate their sin" line is bull. I never heard that cliche until I started participating in debates on homosexuality in Christian circles. I never heard it in the abortion debate. I never heard it in the pre-marital sex debate. I never heard it in the smoking pot debate.

 

[Zecryphon]

You're absolutely correct. It's an unfortunate truth. It's unfortunate how many Christians refuse to apply the Bible in their lives (because they can always use the handy excuse, "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" to cover up their mean-spirited words) and instead use it as a weapon.

In terms of a personal relationship with Jesus, Christians should use the Bible as a means to reflect on their own lives. Instead many use it to beat people over the head to make them feel worthless and insecure. Individual understanding of the Scriptures should be personal, not used to dole out unsolicited condemnation and judgment.

Unfortunately, the Bible is one of the few books a person can hide behind whilst treating others disrespectfully and get away with it. People think, "Oh, it's in the Bible. That must make this person right!" Try perverting a text like the Koran to do and say unspeakable things. Then you have half of Western civilization pointing fingers and screaming, "see! See! I told you Islam was a religion of violence and hatred!" Or try using "Mein Kempf" as the basis of your actions toward others. You'd be automatically be labeled as a hatemonger, and rightfully so (even by many Christians). And yet it's deemed perfectly acceptable to use the Bible as a cloak of protection when acting in a discriminatory fashion against others.

People just need to be honest. I'd have a lot more respect for someone if they said, "yes, I argue against homosexuality because I secretly struggle with gay tendencies" or "yeah, I can't stop talking about how gays are sinful and an abomination because really I hate them. Not their sin. I literally hate the sinner." This whole, "well, I love the sinner, but hate their sin" line is bull. I never heard that cliche until I started participating in debates on homosexuality in Christian circles. I never heard it in the abortion debate. I never heard it in the pre-marital sex debate. I never heard it in the smoking pot debate.

You don't have to pervert the text of the Koran to justify committing horrible acts. Mohammed commanded his followers murder both Jews and Christians.

 

[OllieFranz]

You don't have to pervert the text of the Koran to justify committing horrible acts. Mohammed commanded his followers murder both Jews and Christians.

Can you give us quotations from the appropriate Sura, or are you just repeating "common knowledge" that may or may not be true?

Also, what about the Biblical books of Joshua and Judges, and all the times that God commands the Israelites to destroy a people utterly? And don't answer that God decreed their destruction because of their unbelief, since you obviously would not accept that "excuse" from a muslim if it turns out your charge is true.

 

[KCKID]

How's your attempt at rewriting the Bible going for you? Because that's exactly what you are trying to do. Rewrite it so it says what you want it to say.

I offer one word. Absurd!

detestable

If lying with a man as you would lie with a woman is not a sin how come God's admonishment that it is detestable is in a list of other things he tells them not to do and then is quickly followed with the warning that he punished the land for its sin because it was defiled?

If lying with a man as one lies with a woman is not a sin why has God ordered they be put to death? The word of the Lord says that the wages of sin is death...

The word sodomy has very little to do with homosexuality in the Bible. Qadesh was the original word and it means a male prostitute. But the issue isn't sodomy, it is homosexuality and no matter how hard you try you can't deny that the Bible says (paraphrased) "man shall not lie with man and if he does he will be put to death"

We are talking about a particular piece of scripture that was written for a particular culture that we of today cannot relate to. It's absurd to apply these commands for we of today. For those who don't have a Bible or can't be bothered to look up and read Leviticus 18, I will print the entire chapter below. Please read it and apply your own logic.

Leviticus Chapter 18

1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: I am the LORD your God.

3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do; and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do; neither shall ye walk in their statutes.

4 Mine ordinances shall ye do, and My statutes shall ye keep, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.

5 Ye shall therefore keep My statutes, and Mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.

6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness. I am the LORD.

7 The nakedness of thy father, and the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or the daughter of thy mother, whether born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; for theirs is thine own nakedness.

11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.

13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister; for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.

14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy fathers brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law: she is thy son' wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter; thou shalt not take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness: they are near kinswomen; it is lewdness.

18 And thou shalt not take a woman to her sister, to be a rival to her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her lifetime.

19 And thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is impure by her uncleanness.

20 And thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

21 And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.

23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto; it is perversion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out from before you.

25 And the land was defiled, therefore I did visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land vomited out her inhabitants.

26 Ye therefore shall keep My statutes and Mine ordinances, and shall not do any of these abominations; neither the home-born, nor the stranger that sojourneth among you—

27 for all these abominations have the men of the land done, that were before you, and the land is defiled—

28 that the land vomit not you out also, when ye defile it, as it vomited out the nation that was before you.

29 For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, even the souls that do them shall be cut off from among their people.

30 Therefore shall ye keep My charge, that ye do not any of these abominable customs, which were done before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

The above is what bsd13 claims to be obedient to and he believes that YOU should be obedient to it also. This is the kind of nonsense that the anti-gays present on this subforum to support their bigotry.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

I'm trying to find adequate words to further explain my views, and hope that I am able to do so without offense.

I DO believe that acting on homosexual attractions is a sin, just as it would be sin for me to act upon every impulse I might have if it occurs outside of marriage. I do believe that the Bible condemns sexual relationships between same-sex partners, just as it condems sexual relationships between unmarried persons of the opposite sex.

I do believe that Scripture as a whole makes it very clear that marriage is between persons of the opposite sex. I have yet to find passages regarding marriage between persons of the same sex. If someone else has, please feel free to point them out to me.

I also believe that this side of heaven none of us will be free of having sinful lusts, so although I have to say I think it is sinful to lust after someone of the same sex it is not, to my understanding, any more sinful lusting after someone of the opposite sex. I don't believe that being attracted to persons of the same gender means you can't be saved, nor do I believe that if you act upon those attractions you can't be saved.

As I've stated in other places before, it's called "grace" for a reason. We all need it.

 

[katautumn]

You don't have to pervert the text of the Koran to justify committing horrible acts. Mohammed commanded his followers murder both Jews and Christians.

Verse, please. And be sure you don't isolate the infamous "slay the infidel" statement. And we could also say that the Bible says to execute witches and adulteresses. Wouldn't you say that it would be perverting the Scriptures if someone were to do that today?

 

[Zecryphon]

When I get the time I will post the appropriate verded from the Koran. It's interesting to note how both you and Ollie are already saying certain verses can't be used probably because you think they don't say what they clearly say. Do you guys have this habit of arguing against the clear teachings o every religion when you don't like the teachings? I'd say yes. I've seen you do it for Christianity and now you're attempting to do it for Islam. Tell me do you really believe the lie that Islam means peace and that Christians and Muslims worship the same God? Islam means submission, not peace.

 

[bsd13]

I offer one word. Absurd!




We are talking about a particular piece of scripture that was written for a particular culture that we of today cannot relate to. It's absurd to apply these commands for we of today. For those who don't have a Bible or can't be bothered to look up and read Leviticus 18, I will print the entire chapter below. Please read it and apply your own logic.

Leviticus Chapter 18

1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: I am the LORD your God.

3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do; and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do; neither shall ye walk in their statutes.

4 Mine ordinances shall ye do, and My statutes shall ye keep, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.

5 Ye shall therefore keep My statutes, and Mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.

6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness. I am the LORD.

7 The nakedness of thy father, and the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or the daughter of thy mother, whether born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; for theirs is thine own nakedness.

11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.

13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister; for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.

14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy fathers brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law: she is thy son' wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter; thou shalt not take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness: they are near kinswomen; it is lewdness.

18 And thou shalt not take a woman to her sister, to be a rival to her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her lifetime.

19 And thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is impure by her uncleanness.

20 And thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

21 And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.

23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto; it is perversion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out from before you.

25 And the land was defiled, therefore I did visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land vomited out her inhabitants.

26 Ye therefore shall keep My statutes and Mine ordinances, and shall not do any of these abominations; neither the home-born, nor the stranger that sojourneth among you—

27 for all these abominations have the men of the land done, that were before you, and the land is defiled—

28 that the land vomit not you out also, when ye defile it, as it vomited out the nation that was before you.

29 For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, even the souls that do them shall be cut off from among their people.

30 Therefore shall ye keep My charge, that ye do not any of these abominable customs, which were done before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

The above is what bsd13 claims to be obedient to and he believes that YOU should be obedient to it also. This is the kind of nonsense that the anti-gays present on this subforum to support their bigotry.

Yes I agree you are being absurd. In one breath you tell us that you are not twisting scripture to fit what you want it to say and in the next you say that it was written for a time and culture long ago and therefore isn't applicable to today.

I suppose to your way of manipulating the scripture to fall in line with your views reading them as they are actually written does seem absurd. It certainly would to me. God said he does NOT change, right? So how then is it that he does not change but somehow his commandments and warnings change to fit our culture? Sorry, but THAT idea is absurd!

And don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything to the effect of I was obedient to the law. You just decided to twist what I said the same way as you twisted what God said in order to fit what you wanted it to say to make your point.

Finally while I'm not "anti-gay" I'd certainly rather be anti-gay than anti-God if that was my only option. No doubt you too would agree with that as well. After all if you're anti-God you can't possibly be fulfilling the two great commandments.

 

[OllieFranz]

When I get the time I will post the appropriate verded from the Koran. It's interesting to note how both you and Ollie are already saying certain verses can't be used probably because you think they don't say what they clearly say. Do you guys have this habit of arguing against the clear teachings o every religion when you don't like the teachings? I'd say yes. I've seen you do it for Christianity and now you're attempting to do it for Islam. Tell me do you really believe the lie that Islam means peace and that Christians and Muslims worship the same God? Islam means submission, not peace.

Please do not lie and misrepresent my post.

I did not say certain verses could not be used. I did not argue for or against any teachings in the Quran. I made no claims about the meanings of the words Islam and muslim.

I did not even claim that your charge was wrong. I simply asked you to back it up with evidence in the form of a quotation from the Quran which says what you claim it says.

I did also point out that the Bible commanded the Israelites to do things very similar to what you called "horrible acts" commanded in the Quran. I then said that your analysis of any verse you quote be equally fair to both the Quran and the Bible with respect to those commands.

 

[Zecryphon]

Ollie, I'm sorry. You're correct. You did not forbid me to post certain scriptures. It was KatAutumn who said "don't post the 'slay the infidel' verse." All you did was ask for support of my claims. I found a page that lists many such verses that I believe support my claim. I am posting this from my Treo 700p smartphone and I can't copy & paste all the verses on that page, because it exceeds the capacity of the clipboard. So I will just post the web page address and let the people read for themselves. I don't wish to engage in a debate about these verses and to derail this thread. Once again, I'm truly sorry for bearing false witness about you. I hope you can forgive me. Here is the page: prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes.Islam.