Whats your opinion?

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

Jesus is very clearly about love for evil people, non-violence, and turning the other cheek.

Jesus is also very clear about the responsibility for sinners to answer for their sins. He is about love and justice. You can't embrace the former without also accepting the latter.

The NT turns back most OT laws.

You're going to have a tough time making that stand in light of the fact that Jesus said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Have you ever read that and attempted to understand what it means?

The NT is about being loving and non-violent, even to bad people. It's one of it's main points.

Not exactly. That's only part of the New Testament message.

You can't base your legal ideas on the Bible and be in favour of unnecessarily killing criminals... you just can't. It's one of the most obvious things in the Bible.

Not in my Bible it isn't. You want to embrace only part of Jesus' message, the part that makes you feel warm and fuzzy. You need to read and understand that quote I posted above. It is Matthew 10:34. It pretty much negates your entire premise in this post. None of the verses you cite will contradict the thoughts I've given you as to the entire of Jesus' message. Learn it. It will force you to make a decision I don't believe you've made yet.

 

[Kalevalatar]

I find it strange that some Christians are very fine with bringing their religious morality into law with things like same sex marriage, but with unnecessary state killings, their religion goes out the window.

Likewise, I find it strange when the same Christians who don't trust their government to run health care, education, food security or even postal service for them, inexplicably and unconditionally trust their government when it comes to killing.

 

[Paradoxum]

You realize there are a wide variety of interpretations of "turn the other cheek," right? It doesn't mean we should ignore evil. But as you put it "don't repay evil with evil."

Whatever you're interpretation, it doesn't mean to shoot them in the head.

Personally I think the death penalty served its purpose well in the OT-ish days. Certainly there was not much you could do to insane psychopathic killer other than execute him, considering there were no prisons or mental hospitals. I think the death penalty is pretty much obsolete today.

Maybe it was necessary back then, but it isn't today. The problem is applying rule for then to now, without thinking.

Jesus is also very clear about the responsibility for sinners to answer for their sins. He is about love and justice. You can't embrace the former without also accepting the latter.

Jesus doesn't seem to be that concerned with justice. Those with faith will just go to heaven without punishment (unless you believe in purgatory). That is mercy and forgiveness, not justice.

Also, murderers can be punished by God after death (if you really believe in God); it isn't necessary for us to kill them in the name of justice.

You're going to have a tough time making that stand in light of the fact that Jesus said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Have you ever read that and attempted to understand what it means?

He wasn't talking about violence. 'If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword'. The sword represent division. Jesus then goes on to talk about divisions within families.

So I'd say it's quite easy to understand that as part of Jesus' non-violent message.

Not exactly. That's only part of the New Testament message.

I said it was only part.

Not in my Bible it isn't. You want to embrace only part of Jesus' message, the part that makes you feel warm and fuzzy. You need to read and understand that quote I posted above. It is Matthew 10:34. It pretty much negates your entire premise in this post. None of the verses you cite will contradict the thoughts I've given you as to the entire of Jesus' message. Learn it. It will force you to make a decision I don't believe you've made yet.

I've already explained that Jesus isn't talking about killing people with swords.

Do not repay evil with evil. Don't kill criminals.

Likewise, I find it strange when the same Christians who don't trust their government to run health care, education, food security or even postal service for them, inexplicably and unconditionally trust their government when it comes to killing.

Yeah, I find that strange too. If anything is 'big scary tyrannical government', unnecessarily killing people is.

 

[Joykins]

Likewise, I find it strange when the same Christians who don't trust their government to run health care, education, food security or even postal service for them, inexplicably and unconditionally trust their government when it comes to killing.

We trust it to do bad things like war and killing and tax collection.

 

[interpreter]

Yes. Christians are to support the death penalty, as commanded in Luke 19:27

 

[StephanieSomer]

It's generally been my observation that those against the death penalty object because they see that it isn't a very good deterrent. Deterrence is not the purpose of the death penalty. God Himself instituted it for cases of murder after the Flood, which makes this the only command that is universal. He did so because murder is the malicious and unwarranted destruction of a person created in God's image. And whosoever destroys the image of God in that manner, God demands be destroyed.
Gen 9:5,6 "5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. 6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind."

There are those who object because of the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". However, that is a very poor rendering of the command God gave. It should more correctly read, "Thou shalt not murder." Murder is a premeditated, unwarranted, act of malice, not a punishment. Some object because of the possibility of 12 people making a mistake. Mistakes do happen, but rarely. I'd point out, however, that God only required the witness of 2 or 3 people to initiate the death penalty. The death penalty is an act of the state, not a person. And according to Romans 13:1-5, it is acting according to the will of God.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."

Perhaps Christians who oppose the death penalty for murder would do well to reconsider their opinion in light of this passage, especially verse 2. I, for one, would not like to find myself in opposition to God's command.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Yeah, I find that strange too. If anything is 'big scary tyrannical government', unnecessarily killing people is.

In certain conservative attitudes, the US seems closer to Muslim autocracies than other liberal western democracies.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

It's generally been my observation that those against the death penalty object because they see that it isn't a very good deterrent.

...

I, for one, would not like to find myself in opposition to God's command.

Bring God down here to judge DP cases, and I'll happily go along with whatever sentence He hands out.

Twelve random people and a judge aren't qualified to make that sort of decision.

In your mind, picture the average citizen. Now realize that half of the population are both dumber and meaner than that average citizen. Six people from that half will be on the jury.

 

[interpreter]

We trust it to do bad things like war and killing and tax collection.

The US is the 4th horseman, founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse. Our weapons bring hell and death to the enemies of Jesus.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

The US is the 4th horseman, founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse. Our weapons bring hell and death to the enemies of Jesus.

Ignored.

 

[Psalm 91]

I lean toward being against the death penalty. I think life in prison is worse. I also think way too many innocent people have been executed too.

It would be nice, however, if prisoners were given something to do instead of sitting around or cleaning the bathrooms so that prison wouldn't be three meals and a bed. If a person has committed murder, he needs to pay for it in some way, like hard work every day in addition.

I also am against the death penalty because those things are decided by a jury of our peers. If that is fair, why did Casey Anthony get off? I heard it was because she was an attractive young female. What if you're an unattractive young man? We as people are not perfect and don't always make the right decisions. OJ got away with murder because most of the jury was African American and the one white hold-out was intimidated by the majority, though she really thought he was guilty. We would never in this country put a famous athlete to death. But we put many poor people who aren't famous to death. The system is very unfair so I think it's better to just give the murderer life in prison without parole. Then if he's later found to be innocent, he can be released and no mistakes are made, other than false imprisonment.

 

[Smidlee]

I believe the government has the right and even duty of executing justice including the death penalty. Death penalty is on the same level as war ; sometimes a necessary "evil". As a Christian my support of the death penalty and war heavily depends on the circumstances.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

I lean toward being against the death penalty. I think life in prison is worse.

I hear a lot of people say that kind of thing. Both pro- and anti-DP go on about I'd rather die than be locked up for life. Their reasoning is different, but their conclusion is the same.

Spend some time in the medical field, though, and you'll see that even patients who can't walk, who can't go to the bathroom, who can't do anything much at all still want to live.

When it actually comes down to it, to a choice between spending your life in near-constant pain, restricted to one little room with wires and tubes hooked to you or dying, they almost always choose to live.

 

[ForJesusChrist]

It would be nice, however, if prisoners were given something to do instead of sitting around or cleaning the bathrooms so that prison wouldn't be three meals and a bed. If a person has committed murder, he needs to pay for it in some way, like hard work every day in addition.

Really good idea. I agree.

 

[katautumn]

Likewise, I find it strange when the same Christians who don't trust their government to run health care, education, food security or even postal service for them, inexplicably and unconditionally trust their government when it comes to killing.

The government doesn't sentence people to the death penalty. A jury of one's peers does.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Bring God down here to judge DP cases, and I'll happily go along with whatever sentence He hands out.

Twelve random people and a judge aren't qualified to make that sort of decision.

In your mind, picture the average citizen. Now realize that half of the population are both dumber and meaner than that average citizen. Six people from that half will be on the jury.

Perhaps you missed the quote from Genesis?

 

[SepiaAndDust]

Perhaps you missed the quote from Genesis?

Don't much care what Genesis has to say.

 

[Belk]

It's generally been my observation that those against the death penalty object because they see that it isn't a very good deterrent. Deterrence is not the purpose of the death penalty. God Himself instituted it for cases of murder after the Flood, which makes this the only command that is universal. He did so because murder is the malicious and unwarranted destruction of a person created in God's image. And whosoever destroys the image of God in that manner, God demands be destroyed.
Gen 9:5,6 "5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. 6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind."

There are those who object because of the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". However, that is a very poor rendering of the command God gave. It should more correctly read, "Thou shalt not murder." Murder is a premeditated, unwarranted, act of malice, not a punishment. Some object because of the possibility of 12 people making a mistake. Mistakes do happen, but rarely. I'd point out, however, that God only required the witness of 2 or 3 people to initiate the death penalty. The death penalty is an act of the state, not a person. And according to Romans 13:1-5, it is acting according to the will of God.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."

Perhaps Christians who oppose the death penalty for murder would do well to reconsider their opinion in light of this passage, especially verse 2. I, for one, would not like to find myself in opposition to God's command.

So is it your contention that because it is rare for an innocent to be put to death by the state it is OK to continue doing so?

 

[interpreter]

So is it your contention that because it is rare for an innocent to be put to death by the state it is OK to continue doing so?

Exactly.

 

[Paradoxum]

In certain conservative attitudes, the US seems closer to Muslim autocracies than other liberal western democracies.

Which conservatives attitudes do you think that about? jw