What's wrong with 'Christian'?

[Henaynei]

And I think rather the burden is on you to show were the calling of the Jewish follower of Messiah had His G-d-given calling as a Jew changed.

 

[Higher Truth]

quote:
(even Rav Sha'ul was instructed to go make sacrifices in the Temple to show that he and the believing Jews that he taught in the Diaspora all still obeyed Torah) -

HT:
The question is, did he sacrifice?

 

[Henaynei]

quote:
(even Rav Sha'ul was instructed to go make sacrifices in the Temple to show that he and the believing Jews that he taught in the Diaspora all still obeyed Torah) -

HT:
The question is, did he sacrifice?

Hmmm... could it be?? and G-d did not think it important enough to clearly state so when so much else of Rav Sha'ul's actions and decisions are very clearly delineated? Or did HaShem make something clear, quite to the contrary?? Something that normative christianity has either willfully (much of the time) or ignorantly (some of the time) ignored or twisted?

Look here at scripture:

Acts [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:24 Them take, and purify thyself (see Numbers chapter 6 for what was required) with them, and be at charges with them (pay the costs of their purification), that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:26 Then Paul took the men (either he is a gross hypocrit or he is obedient to Torah), and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, [/font]

He went to the Temple and the priests TO perform the sacrifice as instructed by scripture. The only thing that prevented Rav Sha'ul from making the final required sacrifice was that the crowd nabbed him - thinking he had brought gentiles into the inner courts of the sanctuary - and he was taken away.

Now if it be accounted that a man has committed adultery just by thinking about it - how much more would he be held accountable for the sacrifice having gone to the Temple with the intent of doing the four sacrifices as specified in Numbers.

B'midbar 6
13 And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: 14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings, 15 And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings. 16 And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering: 17 And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering. 18 And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings. 19 And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven: 20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine. 21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

 

[Higher Truth]

So we have established that Paul did not sacrifice, and only did ritual cleansing.Many other people that I have discussed this with have had this wrong, and you are the first person to actually know.I must say that I am impressed.

Next question:

Do you shave your head at the beginning or at the end of the vow, and where did Paul shave his head?

 

[simchat_torah]

Higher Truth,

So you're telling me that you will rather simply ignore the bulk of Henaynei's post and just make quick statements of your opinion merely to defy her?

It would be the same as me reading your last post and saying:

"So you mean to tell me that you have red hair?"
You ignore the entire bulk of what Henaynei posted and went on to spout an opnion.
hehe, I guess old dogs don't learn new tricks after all.

Well, HT, Hen's point was that Sha'ul did in fact pay for the sacrafices to be made and was in the process of making those sacrafices AND more so had it publically noted that he was making the sacrafices for not only himself but 4 others.

Granted, Sha'ul was nabbed before the sacrafice had been completed... yet what was he doing???

he was making a public display before the believers in Jerusalem... and in return rebuking the idea that he was antinominian.

Then again, maybe he was just pulling our legs... maybe he was just deceiving us and never intended to finish the sacrafice.

Maybe you're right HT. maybe you're right...

 

[Higher Truth]

HT:

Next question.Were the Jews that Paul was with believers?

Unanswered question:

Where did Paul cut his hair, and do you cut the hair at the beginning of the vow, or after the vow is completed.

 

[Henaynei]

I believe simchat_torah responded eloquently to the first part of your post that totally ignores all but a few lines of my entire previous post, as well as the statement and essence of the post (proof that all the spin doctors don't all live in politics). I will keep myself to the response to your question.

Do you shave your head at the beginning or at the end of the vow, and where did Paul shave his head?

The End (which is just the beginning - LOL)

Acts 18:18
And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.

"The fact that [Sha'ul] was maintaining a Nazarite vow while in the Diaspora, and that he cuts his hair at Cenchrea, should not be considered a breach of the Torah requirement to offer the sacrifice at the Temple at the conclusion of the vow. It was understood that when a Nazarite vow was taken outside of the Land, he would cut his hair at the end of the vowed period, and upon returning to the Land would complete the ceremony with the prescribed sacrifice." The Letter Writer - Tim Hegg (First Fruits of Zion - (c) 2000 - foot notes pg 287)

Next question.Were the Jews that Paul was with believers?

It makes NO difference whether they were or not - the ONLY point is that Rav Sha'ul WAS a believer. But, yes they were believers.

Acts 21:23 [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Do therefore this that we say to thee: We (the Messianic Counsel @ Jerusalem headed by Ya'acov the brother of Yeshua) have (belonging with us and therefore believers) four men which have a vow on them; (non-believing Jews were the ones that were angry with what they thought they knew about Sha'ul)[/font]

 

[simchat_torah]

I had a long post ready to respond to HT, but I decided I didn't want to pamper to HT's arrogant, sarcastic, and obnoxious post. I decided it was best to simply ignore such rudeness.

He
Henaynei, thank you again for a solid answer.

shalom,
yafet.

 

[Higher Truth]

I have some more questions, and I appreciate all of the responses thus far. Thank you.


Is animal sacrifice always a part of purification?

Will animal sacrifice be necessary for believers if the Third Temple is built?

Did Paul author the book of Hebrews?

 

[iitb]

I have some more questions, and I appreciate all of the responses thus far. Thank you.


Is animal sacrifice always a part of purification?

Will animal sacrifice be necessary for believers if the Third Temple is built?

Did Paul author the book of Hebrews?

I'm curious as to where you're going with all of this. Not that I have a problem with any of your questions, I'm just having a little trouble seeing where this is leading.

 

[KelsayDL]

Did Paul author the book of Hebrews?

In my opinion, not a chance.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Will animal sacrifice be necessary for believers if the Third Temple is built?

If I may? Do you mean the third temple to be built by human hands or the temple in heaven that will descend? For if it is the latter I believe that Isaiah 19 and Ezekiel 40-44 may help.

If the former I would say consult Daniel 9 if you don't believe that is speaking of the future now, instead of when Messiah was cut off.

 

[simchat_torah]

I was born Jewish but raised secular. My grandfather's (mother's side) family escaped from Poland to America during WWII and ended up converting to christianity because of Antisemitism in the States. My father's side of the family is Jewish as well, but most are either secular Jews or are christians as of this last century. That's where the "dillman" name comes from.... an Austrian band of Jews.

I have returned to the faith of my ancestors, and I attend a synagouge... and no, not messianic. I feel that there is nothing wrong with this expression as the early believers also attended synagouges (while reserving the 'messianic' meetings for within their homes).

I certainly feel that there are problems with the way christianity has defined the trinity, yet I see a triune expression of HaShem's holiness. I might consider attending a messianic congregation if one were within my vacinity... I used to drive 2 hours before Shabbat just to go to a MJ congregation.

I have been married for 4 years and graduated with a BS in computer programming and a minor in philosophy, which originally I intended to use as a springboard into a Modern Orthodox Yeshiva.... those plans are on hold.

Now you have pics to go along with this description... lol:

http://www.christianforums.com/t61866

Just be nice, I know I'm a giant.

 

[simchat_torah]

I always like saying, "Hey Arabs, you wanna pick on a Jew? Start here first."

hmmm... none seem to do. Everyone just seems to run in the other direction screaming.

*sigh* this gentle giant will never have any friends.

=========================================

fyi, the above is sarcasm to those without a sense of humor... but I am a big man - 289 pounds worth.

 

[SonWorshipper]

I always like saying, "Hey Arabs, you wanna pick on a Jew? Start here first."

hmmm... none seem to do. Everyone just seems to run in the other direction screaming.

*sigh* this gentle giant will never have any friends.

=========================================

fyi, the above is sarcasm to those without a sense of humor... but I am a big man - 289 pounds worth.

Big Heart is all I see, you do emenate your name Yafet., although we must have a talk about that someday. I am on my way to the Sukkah.

Chag Sameach everyone!

 

[SonWorshipper]

Oh, one question Yafet, Katan or belt loop? Also does the techelet go to synagogue and if so what has been the reaction?

 

[simchat_torah]

Big Heart is all I see, you do emenate your name Yafet., although we must have a talk about that someday

Oh?

hmmm... Yafet in Hebrew means 'expressive light'... or alternatively translated as 'singing moutain', hahahahah. I'd like to think that either one fits the bill.

Oh, one question Yafet, Katan or belt loop? Also does the techelet go to synagogue and if so what has been the reaction?

1) Tallit Katan. Got it for my birthday last year from a student at a Yeshivah in Chicago.
2) Actually, I just wear my tallit to synagouge. It has all white tzitzit. The one I'm wearing in the picture came from Israel (the katan). -see below-

I don't know if anyone here knows this or not, but they have 'rediscovered' the supposedly extinct mussel (or is it a clam?) that the blue dye is made from. Anyway, they are kinda pricey, but you can get tzitzit that are Orthodoxyically (is that a word? lol) approved by the beit din in Jerusalem. The dye of the blue comes out to reflect exactly 613 ultraviolet under a spectrometer.

I firmly believe the Ruach has guided our sages down through the centuries... and this only more clearly shows so.

Oh, and I do have a funny story about tzitzit and beltloops that I might tell someday. haha, chalk it up to another 'messy' anic thing.

Well, shalom Mishpochah.
-Yafet.

 

[yod]

one can always "speak" without speaking evil.

 

[yod]