What's with all the 'racist uncles'?

[Trogdor the Burninator]

The healthcare system isn't responsible for your health...you are. When you fail to care for your health it patches you up, nothing more.

Including when you contract a disease or get a cancer diagnosis? How are people "responsible" for those?

The irony is, that attitude to health care undermines your own economy, meaning everyone pays in the end. Having healthier, more productive citizens pays off for everyone.

 

[All Englands Skies]

I know your question wasn't directed toward me but I wanted to say that I do believe in genetically influenced behavior. I have studied it on a personal level for many years and I have also been in professional care for it as well. I'm not going to go into further detail about my personal experiences with it in this thread but I do believe in genetically influenced behavior. I know it is a reality.

I think traits and behaviour is determined by what we experience, right from the moment we are born, so we sometimes repeat behaviours of those who we grow up around or sometimes we can form new "traits" and behaviours as well as human beings we are multi-layered.

I don't believe genetics are the driving force, my Father could be capable of great violence and cruelty towards my mother, me and my siblings, that would mean I would be doomed to be just like him, something I shudder to imagine. But some people do become what those they are raised around are like, but I think its behaviour, not genetics.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The irony is, that attitude to health care undermines your own economy, meaning everyone pays in the end. Having healthier, more productive citizens pays off for everyone.

I agree. And if people took better care of themselves there would be enough healthcare to go around for everyone, at reasonable prices.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Including when you contract a disease or get a cancer diagnosis? How are people "responsible" for those?

Who is responsible if not the people themselves? I guess if you can pass the responsibility off to someone else you can demand that someone else pay for your treatment. And if you get away with it you now have a license to abuse your health from then on. And if enough people do this the healthcare system will collapse, and you will need socialized medicine, which is where we're heading it seems.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Who is responsible if not the people themselves? I guess if you can pass the responsibility off to someone else you can demand that someone else pay for your treatment. And if you get away with it you now have a license to abuse your health from then on. And if enough people do this the healthcare system will collapse, and you will need socialized medicine, which is where we're heading it seems.

Sometimes people just get sick. That how health works. Not very one who gets cancer smokes or abuses alcohol.

As for the link between healthcare and health, if "paying your own way" encouraged people to take better care of their health, America would be the healthiest country in the world. Yet the opposite is true, countries with socialised healthcare in most cases have healthier populations.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Sometimes people just get sick. That how health works. Not very one who gets cancer smokes or abuses alcohol.

As for the link between healthcare and health, if "paying your own way" encouraged people to take better care of their health, America would be the healthiest country in the world. Yet the opposite is true, countries with socialised healthcare in most cases have healthier populations.

Or that healthier peoples can afford socialized healthcare (it's chicken/egg thing). The very fact that Americans don't care as much about their health means that we cannot afford socialized healthcare.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The part where we acknowledge 1.) that educational attainment correlates highly to the educational attainment of our parents (because they're the ones who teach us how important education is) and 2.) that we deliberately prevented generations of blacks from getting an education.

And now that generations haven't been prevented from getting an education...who exactly are you blaming for attitudes towards education?

The part where we pushed black communities into poverty and then over-policed and over-incarcerated them.

Or under-police and under incarcerate....depending on which numbers you're looking at.

 

[Ana the Ist]

"Smart" is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I think everyone is a genius; many people on these forums here would disagree.

That should stand alone, but would it matter if I said I was a mathematician, and I though everyone was a genius? Why should it matter

The fundamentals for success in regards to the poor and minorities are full of stuff and things; very few of those entities have ever experienced what it means to be poor and a minority. Otherwise, what they propose wouldn't be as laughable as it is.

With regards to schooling, blacks perform lower than whites at every income level. That means even the wealthy black children underperform compared to whites.

You might be inclined to think that means it must be because of racism....but the same studies also looked at black children adopted by white parents....and found they perform as well as their white peers.

That really only leaves black culture as a reasonable explanation.

 

[iluvatar5150]

And now that generations haven't been prevented from getting an education...who exactly are you blaming for attitudes towards education?

I still blame the white establishment. We are only barely at the point of being able to pluralize the "generations" who haven't been legally prevented from getting an education (not accounting for the institutional barriers that existed after the legal ones fell). Appreciation for education is learned from the people around you, especially the people in your life who are older than you. If your parents were prevented from getting an education, you're less likely to get one yourself. This is a problem that will take many generations to fix - maybe even a century or more.

 

[essentialsaltes]

You might be inclined to think that means it must be because of racism....but the same studies also looked at black children adopted by white parents....and found they perform as well as their white peers.

That really only leaves black culture as a reasonable explanation.

Surely any effects of racism on the children would be likely to affect 'all black' families more than in cases where the child has been adopted into a white family.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I still blame the white establishment.

How is that going to change black cultural attitudes towards education?

We are only barely at the point of being able to pluralize the "generations" who haven't been legally prevented from getting an education (not accounting for the institutional barriers that existed after the legal ones fell). Appreciation for education is learned from the people around you, especially the people in your life who are older than you. If your parents were prevented from getting an education, you're less likely to get one yourself. This is a problem that will take many generations to fix - maybe even a century or more.

Let's say that it's true that a parent who doesn't value education will have a child with the same attitude....

Even if you want to blame this on whites (and I think that's a ridiculous assertion, you can only present people with opportunities...it's their own fault if they choose not to make the most of them)....it's still a problem that has to be fixed in the black community. Whites can't read books to all the little black children, they can't speak proper grammar with a large vocabulary to all the little black babies.

This is a problem that the black community has to fix.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Surely any effects of racism on the children would be likely to affect 'all black' families more than in cases where the child has been adopted into a white family.

Sorry, I don't know what you're saying here. We're talking about test scores.

Racism is generally ruled out by the fact that it doesn't matter if a black child goes to a predominantly black school (even a poor one) or a predominantly white school. When we compare that child's scores to that of the white children in an equally poor school (even when the white children are the minority) the white children do better.

Even when we test them prior to beginning school....the black children are already lagging behind the whites.

I know that liberals like to blame white people and racism for everything...but that's not what the data shows.

If you really are interested in helping the black community, then you'll need to stop to make trying to come up with ridiculous theories to make racism fit the data. Instead, try looking at what white parents are doing with their children that black parents aren't....and figure out how to change the black parents accordingly.

You know, that....or just keep beating a dead horse.

 

[RDKirk]

This is a problem that the black community has to fix.

Going back to the South of the early 60s, one thing "separate but equal" had done was provide that separation that to the extent possible, black southerners had built upon. That's what you saw in the movie "Hidden Figures." I, as a young child, had around me a family of college graduates, a school of black teachers and administrators, small business owners, a community of HBCU educated black professionals--who were forced to to be a part of my childhood by segregation. All the authority figures in my life up to middle school were black.

But our parents believed we would be the generation of blacks that would get our piece of the pie, and they were preparing us to take that bite.

That was good for me and other black Boomer children, but not good for our parents and ultimately it would not be good for us, either. The problem with "separate but equal" is that the white power structure only allowed "separate" as long as it was "unequal." Whenever blacks built themselves up to equality, whites moved to press them back down again, steal it or destroy it. It served as an incubator, but eventually the baby must leave the incubator.

Racism in the north, however, had prevented even that much. Those children weren't surrounded by HBCU graduates. They didn't have the black small business owners, the doctors and pharmacists.

For better or for worse, Malcolm X was correct about the need for the urban black communities to have a period of separation and radical self-correction.

 

[iluvatar5150]

How is that going to change black cultural attitudes towards education?

I didn't say it would. I wasn't prescribing a solution. The discussion was about the initial cause. OWG initially stated that the cause of underachievement in the black community was a result of holding them to lower standards. I responded by pointing out that that's an odd way to describe a deliberate policy of under-educating them.

Let's say that it's true that a parent who doesn't value education will have a child with the same attitude....

Even if you want to blame this on whites (and I think that's a ridiculous assertion, you can only present people with opportunities...it's their own fault if they choose not to make the most of them)....it's still a problem that has to be fixed in the black community. Whites can't read books to all the little black children, they can't speak proper grammar with a large vocabulary to all the little black babies.

This is a problem that the black community has to fix.

I don't pretend to know what the fix is, but I fail to see how its ridiculous to assert that the current segregation and levels underachievement by blacks are a result of a history of policies enacted by whites. You can't undo centuries of wrongs inside of a couple decades.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I didn't say it would. I wasn't prescribing a solution. The discussion was about the initial cause. OWG initially stated that the cause of underachievement in the black community was a result of holding them to lower standards. I responded by pointing out that that's an odd way to describe a deliberate policy of under-educating them.

I included 'them' in that critique.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Why not?

Why not indeed. I am pretty great (in a humble sort of way).

 

[Ana the Ist]

Going back to the South of the early 60s, one thing "separate but equal" had done was provide that separation that to the extent possible, black southerners had built upon. That's what you saw in the movie "Hidden Figures."

I don't think I saw that one.

I, as a young child, had around me a family of college graduates, a school of black teachers and administrators, small business owners, a community of HBCU educated black professionals--who were forced to to be a part of my childhood by segregation. All the authority figures in my life up to middle school were black.

Good lord RD, how old are you? I was always under the impression you were in your 40s....though I'm not sure why.

But our parents believed we would be the generation of blacks that would get our piece of the pie, and they were preparing us to take that bite.

That was good for me and other black Boomer children, but not good for our parents and ultimately it would not be good for us, either.

I'm highlighting this sentence cuz I'd like it if you could reword it. It was either good for you or it wasn't.

The problem with "separate but equal" is that the white power structure only allowed "separate" as long as it was "unequal."

Right, the separate part worked....just not the equal part.

Whenever blacks built themselves up to equality, whites moved to press them back down again, steal it or destroy it. It served as an incubator, but eventually the baby must leave the incubator.

Well....let's not say every time. There were those times when blacks destroyed it themselves.

Racism in the north, however, had prevented even that much. Those children weren't surrounded by HBCU graduates. They didn't have the black small business owners, the doctors and pharmacists.

Yeah....I think we agree the civil rights movement was a good thing.

For better or for worse, Malcolm X was correct about the need for the urban black communities to have a period of separation and radical self-correction.

Separation from??

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't say it would. I wasn't prescribing a solution. The discussion was about the initial cause.

"Initial cause" is a funny phrase on the left. Cause and effect are long chains of events that go back to the beginning of written history and what little we can know of before then.

I'm a little skeptical of anyone who points to an event in the last century and says "initial cause". It feels more like the cause that's politically expedient or useful.

OWG initially stated that the cause of underachievement in the black community was a result of holding them to lower standards. I responded by pointing out that that's an odd way to describe a deliberate policy of under-educating them.

What deliberate policies are we talking about? Pre-civil rights?

I don't pretend to know what the fix is, but I fail to see how its ridiculous to assert that the current segregation

Current segregation? Like the safe spaces that minorities ask for in college?

and levels underachievement by blacks are a result of a history of policies enacted by whites. You can't undo centuries of wrongs inside of a couple decades.

Easy....because they aren't. When we look at blacks in the upper levels of affluence and compare them to whites at the same levels....we see the same under achieving. So poverty isn't the issue. When we look at black babies adopted by white parents, those levels of achievement are equal to the white children....so racism isn't the issue.

When we look at black parents and white parents....there are consistently recognized patterns that one might call "culture". They show up in how many hours a child spends watching tv. They show in how often the parents talk to the child, how they talk to the child, and what they talk about. They show up in how often parents read to the child.

These are all things that are proven to affect just how intelligent the child can become and how well they do in school. You can blame whites all you want....but when it comes down to it, how often a black parent talks to their child isn't something affected by "white people" in any way.

So again, if you'd rather stick your head in the sand and pretend it's all the fault of "evil white people" go ahead....but I don't see it achieving anything other than encouraging racist whites and blacks. If you actually want to help black people, start spreading a new narrative based on the facts.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I agree. And if people took better care of themselves there would be enough healthcare to go around for everyone, at reasonable prices.

Indeed -- all those careless, selfish people going off and giving themselves cancer and diabetes...

Why didn't they think of you before growing that tumor?