What's Up With This Forum? What's It All About? Need clarification...

[SackLunch]

Ostensibly this forum is a place to debate Creationism verses Evolution. But in reality, it is simply a place to discuss all things evolution and ferociously attack anyone who dissents or brings their talk of God and "pseudoscience" into the mix. This was verified by another poster recently, that some members of this board have banded together in an effort to "purge" this forum of anyone who holds Christian Creationist views.

NEWSFLASH: This is a Christian board. This is not a secular scientific board. You should expect such views.

Why is this? Why can't you guys handle a good 'ol fashioned Creationsim vs. Evolution debate which is supposed to be what this forum is all about? Why do you constantly trash God and the Bible, then when confronted with it, you say, "Ah no, it's okay, people can believe what they want to believe." Then you turn around and trash God and the Bible some more, calling it all "pseudoscience" and "fairy tales." What's up with your double-talk? Can you own up to what you say?

Are you afraid of God? He's not afraid of you.

 

[NamesAreHardToPick]

So you think there is some kind of conspiracy to get rid of Creationists? And what is your evidence to back this up? I like how you build a wonderful strawman by assuming that because we are evolutionists we can't be Christians and serve God.

NEWSFLASH: Evolutionists can be Christians too.

If your literalistic interpretation of the Bible is not a fairy tale, then please provide solid evidence to support it. However, if you cannot, don't try to claim that because you "believe it" that some how makes it valid.

NEWSFLASH: This debate is a scientific debate and thus views are held up to scientific falsification/infalsification.

If you can't handle the fact that your literalistic interpretation has no evidence to support it, don't start topics complaining about how so many people are "out to get you." We aren't, we are just people who are interested in science and would like to see you provide solid evidence for your assertions. And when you do, your evidence will be subject to scrutiny as well.

 

[notto]

I think the only thing that there is a 'conspiracy' about is to weed out creationists who post misleading titles for their threads or who post lies and false information in their effort to support their ideas.

Strawmen and claims that evolution=atheism are particularly hard to weed out it would seem. Just like weeds, they keep coming back.

 

[Tomk80]

That you are a christian creationist, does not excuse you from making incorrect statements. Every time you make an incorrect statement, you'll get called on it. By christians and atheists alike.

That creationists (again, creationists, not christians) get more criticism then evolutionists is generally because they feel safer about making statements on topics they don't know much about (and because of that make more incorrect statements).

 

[FSTDT]

SackLunch,

Really, what was the point in starting this thread? By your own admission, this is a board to "to debate Creationism verses Evolution", but this thread doesnt serve that purpose at all - it takes a potshots at the members of this board without inviting much room for debate at all.

I see no other reasons to start a thread like this except to get a rise out of the people on this board and draw attention to yourself - that makes your actions trollish and makes you a troll. Please, if you want to contribute to the discussion of and debate of creationism vs evolution, start threads on creationism vs evolution - dont start threads like these.

My two cents.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Ostensibly this forum is a place to debate Creationism verses Evolution.

And so it is.

But in reality, it is simply a place to discuss all things evolution and ferociously attack anyone who dissents or brings their talk of God and "pseudoscience" into the mix.

Since Creationism is nothing but appeals to the supenatural and other pseudosicence, this board is exactly what it claims to be.

Creationism vs. Evolution -- Nobody ever said it would be an even match.

This was verified by another poster recently, that some members of this board have banded together in an effort to "purge" this forum of anyone who holds Christian Creationist views.

NEWSFLASH: This is a Christian board. This is not a secular scientific board. You should expect such views.

NEWFLASH: This is a scientific board. Be scientific or be gone.

Why is this? Why can't you guys handle a good 'ol fashioned Creationsim vs. Evolution debate which is supposed to be what this forum is all about? Why do you constantly trash God and the Bible, then when confronted with it, you say, "Ah no, it's okay, people can believe what they want to believe." Then you turn around and trash God and the Bible some more, calling it all "pseudoscience" and "fairy tales." What's up with your double-talk? Can you own up to what you say?

What does God have to do with scientific study?

<Spam snipped>

 

[raphael_aa]

Ostensibly this forum is a place to debate Creationism verses Evolution. But in reality, it is simply a place to discuss all things evolution and ferociously attack anyone who dissents or brings their talk of God and "pseudoscience" into the mix. This was verified by another poster recently, that some members of this board have banded together in an effort to "purge" this forum of anyone who holds Christian Creationist views.

NEWSFLASH: This is a Christian board. This is not a secular scientific board. You should expect such views.

Why is this? Why can't you guys handle a good 'ol fashioned Creationsim vs. Evolution debate which is supposed to be what this forum is all about? Why do you constantly trash God and the Bible, then when confronted with it, you say, "Ah no, it's okay, people can believe what they want to believe." Then you turn around and trash God and the Bible some more, calling it all "pseudoscience" and "fairy tales." What's up with your double-talk? Can you own up to what you say?

Are you afraid of God? He's not afraid of you.

There is a diversity of views within Christianity about origins. To adequately discuss and debate these, one must present evidence and persuasive argument. You might notice that a significant number of people who argue against some of your views are christians.

The only way you can avoid this is to rededfine Christianity so that it only includes people who agree with your interpretation of scripture. In other threads that you have started I have asked you whether this is indeed your position. You have chosen not to answer.

If this is your position and it is only the rules of this forum that prevent you from saying so, then I don't understand why you choose to continue to post here. If you simply want agreement and 'amens' then you could post in the christians only section in the creationist forum. (You might note there is also a theistic evolution forum there also.) http://www.christianforums.com/f143-origins-theology.html

 

[Hydra009]

Why do you constantly trash God and the Bible, then when confronted with it, you say, "Ah no, it's okay, people can believe what they want to believe." Then you turn around and trash God and the Bible some more, calling it all "pseudoscience" and "fairy tales."

Creationism =/= Christianity.

 

[Illuminatus]

NEWSFLASH: Evolutionists can be Christians too.

But True Christians (TM) are Hovind-watchin', Hamm-readin' Creationists! If you're not, you're aren't a True Christian (TM).

 

[YellowStar]

I know what you mean SackLunch, already only 3 out of 8 people who have replied to this are Christians. Its really boring, this forum because you can't have a proper debate when your ganged up on by athiests. Also the athiests must be REALLY sad because all they do is waste their life coming on to a CHRISTIAN forum for hours upon end, they say theres no meaning to life, so i don't see why their not out there livin' it up rather than sitting at home attacking christians... what an exciting life they lead .

What else is damn annoying about this forum is we're not even arguing about the same thing!

Basic definitions-

The evolutionists say Microevolution is - Variations within a species
Macroevolution - Changing into different species

The creationists say Microevolution is - Variation within a kind
Macroevolution is chagning into another kind

Of course by the way the evolutionists describe evolution, it is a fact.
Species do change into other species but the creationists aren't denying this they are saying that one kind of animal doesn't change into another! Then the evolutionist will say what is a kind and then the creationist will say what is a species, so the argument is never ending and quite frankly boring.

And what else will happen now is someone will be sad enough to waste time and quote my post and start replying to make comments about it .

 

[mikeynov]

Most of us evil atheists smack down creationists because they're a real problem in this country right now. They're hurting public policy, they're hurting science standards, and they're hurting people's opportunity to be exposed to actually good science instead of nonsense.

While I'm normally a fan of the "ignore it and hopefully it'll go away" tactic of not empowering lunatics, creationists are just stubborn enough to warrant an occasional smackdown.

Observe the course of debate on basically every thread on this board. Here's the standard format:

Step 1: creationist makes outrageous claim
Step 2: a large number of people rebut that claim, which 90% of the time has nothing to do with evolution and the other 10% is a quote-mine or simple PRATT
Step 3: creationist ignores most of the well written rebuttals, instead focuses on one or two, misdirects and winds up repeating the claim in step 1.
Step 4: people re-rebut the points, and point out the creationist is probably ignoring literally everything.
Step 5: Creationist complains about evil atheists, talks about true Christianity, and winds up disappearing
Step 6: creationist waits an appropriate period of time and then comes back and starts a new thread, either with another ridiculous claim or spouting the same **** that got smacked down in the first place.

Over and over and over again. Now, granted, it could be argued people who actually understand science are wasting their time on such people.

But given the societal attitues we face here in America, at least, somebody needs to speak up. A lot of the science-minded people that are being insulted in this thread for "wasting their time" by coming here are actually doing these creationists a favor, though they don't realize it. Most try to explain to them that there's no need to abandon their faith. Many spend literally hours trying to explain rudimentary concepts of relevent subjects. And, 98% of the time, it's all ignored.

So yah, some of us eventually get a bit bitter and crack jokes. But most here are sincerely interested in trying to stop the flow of BS coming from creationist sources. That seems a worthwhile cause.

 

[nabiscothejerd]

I know what you mean SackLunch, already only 3 out of 8 people who have replied to this are Christians. Its really boring, this forum because you can't have a proper debate when your ganged up on by athiests. Also the athiests must be REALLY sad because all they do is waste their life coming on to a CHRISTIAN forum for hours upon end, they say theres no meaning to life, so i don't see why their not out there livin' it up rather than sitting at home attacking christians... what an exciting life they lead .

What else is damn annoying about this forum is we're not even arguing about the same thing!

Basic definitions-

The evolutionists say Microevolution is - Variations within a species
Macroevolution - Changing into different species

The creationists say Microevolution is - Variation within a kind
Macroevolution is chagning into another kind

Of course by the way the evolutionists describe evolution, it is a fact.
Species do change into other species but the creationists aren't denying this they are saying that one kind of animal doesn't change into another! Then the evolutionist will say what is a kind and then the creationist will say what is a species, so the argument is never ending and quite frankly boring.

And what else will happen now is someone will be sad enough to waste time and quote my post and start replying to make comments about it .

" Species do change into other species"

Isn't that macroevolution?

"One kind of animal doesn't change into another"

That is macroevolution!

 

[MartinM]

Species do change into other species but the creationists aren't denying this they are saying that one kind of animal doesn't change into another! Then the evolutionist will say what is a kind and then the creationist will say what is a species, so the argument is never ending and quite frankly boring.

If you know that species change into species, then why would a creationist need to ask for the definition of 'species?'

Looks to me like you're just deflecting attention from your utter inability to define kind, which renders your claim that evolution cannot go beyond the boundary of kinds literally meaningless.

 

[SackLunch]

The problem with PRATTS is that the point is refuted but never explained properly. For example evolutionists cannot properly explain away the complexity of our bodily structures simply by random mutations and natural selection. There IS no explanation for this in evolution.

I tried to ask you about the human eye, and all I received in return is this crazy story on how, because we have other creatures in nature with light-sensitive patches, our eyes developed from light-sensitive patches on the brain, which made a depression, which made a slit, which fell into already-formed eye sockets, which somehow made rods, cones, retinas, pupils, muscles, blood vessels, eye lids, etc.

But it goes on and on. I ask you how the human body can be comprised of many organs - all compex in and of themselves - and all working together in harmony - how all this complexity can come about simply by random mutations and natural selection. I ask you how the information was coded into DNA, because that information could NOT have been coded into DNA from nothingness (all information has an original source). You guys have no answer, because evolution does not provide an answer. Just slap the 'ol PRATT label on anyone who disagrees with your evolutionist philosophy.

Then there is the dreaded "godditit." Oh no, we can't say God did it. That would be "pseudoscience." But in reality, you guys KNOW you don't have these answers regarding origins, and yet you still reject the very answer that is the most logical. That yes, in fact - God DID do it. What's there so hard to believe??

 

[raphael_aa]

The problem with PRATTS is that the point is refuted but never explained properly. For example evolutionists cannot properly explain away the complexity of our bodily structures simply by random mutations and natural selection. There IS no explanation for this in evolution.

I tried to ask you about the human eye, and all I received in return is this crazy story on how, because we have other creatures in nature with light-sensitive patches, our eyes developed from light-sensitive patches on the brain, which made a depression, which made a slit, which fell into already-formed eye sockets, which somehow made rods, cones, retinas, pupils, muscles, blood vessels, eye lids, etc.

But it goes on and on. I ask you how the human body can be comprised of many organs - all compex in and of themselves - and all working together in harmony - how all this complexity can come about simply by random mutations and natural selection. I ask you how the information was coded into DNA, because that information could NOT have been coded into DNA from nothingness (all information has an original source). You guys have no answer, because evolution does not provide an answer. Just slap the 'ol PRATT label on anyone who disagrees with your evolutionist philosophy.

Then there is the dreaded "godditit." Oh no, we can't say God did it. That would be "pseudoscience." But in reality, you guys KNOW you don't have these answers regarding origins, and yet you still reject the very answer that is the most logical. That yes, in fact - God DID do it. What's there so hard to believe??

As a christian I have no problem saying 'God did it'. The question then becomes HOW did God do it. The evidence overwhelmingly supports evolution as His method of choice.

You have had things explained to you. I have been in threads where link after link is posted to show you pathways of evolution. You have yet to define what 'complexity' is and how you measure it and why mutation and natural selection cannot produce it. Its ok if you don't like the explanation. Its ok if you feel your christianity must be literal to be valid. The fact that others do not should not give you a heart attack.

 

[gladiatrix]

Ostensibly this forum is a place to debate Creationism verses Evolution. But in reality, it is simply a place to discuss all things evolution and ferociously attack anyone who dissents or brings their talk of God and "pseudoscience" into the mix. This was verified by another poster recently, that some members of this board have banded together in an effort to "purge" this forum of anyone who holds Christian Creationist views.


NEWSFLASH: This is a Christian board. This is not a secular scientific board. You should expect such views.

This is a forum for ALL members, not just Christians. If all you want is to have your creationist sensibilities stroked and not challenged, then there's a forum here just for you:

Creationism Forum in the Christians-only section

Since you are here with people with a wide range of views, don't be surprised if your creationist views get called on the scientific carpet (got evidence, Sack?), since a number of us really are scientists (both atheists and theists) or are very well-read laypersons (again both atheists and theists). God, by definition is NOT a subject for scientific investigation. Science can't say yes or no to such a thing as God(s?). Why that is so is given below

Part 1--Basic Scientific Definitions and Methodology (Since you don't seem to know what science is and how it is used)

Part 2--Philosophical Naturalism vs Methodological Naturalism or Why Science Can't be Used to Investigate God Claims

Why is this? Why can't you guys handle a good 'ol fashioned Creationsim vs. Evolution debate which is supposed to be what this forum is all about?

Oh, the irony... It looks like you are the one who "handle a good 'ol fashioned Creationsim vs. Evolution debate" with this persecution whine. Projection, MUCH!

Why do you constantly trash God and the Bible, then when confronted with it, you say, "Ah no, it's okay, people can believe what they want to believe." Then you turn around and trash God and the Bible some more, calling it all "pseudoscience" and "fairy tales." What's up with your double-talk? Can you own up to what you say?

"Trashing the Bible?" Look in the mirror and realize that by touting a particular interpretation of a story written by scientifically ignorant Bronze Age humans as scienctifically accurate , it is you/other YECs who are ultimately responsible for "trashing the Bible". IOW, if you are going to tout your "literal" interpretaion of Genesis as scientifically accurate, the EXPECT to have your claim of scientific accuracy and "literally truth" disproven. If disproving YOUR claim of scientific accuracy/"literal truth" is "trashing the Bible" then realize that by tying the credibility of your god claims to a particular intepretation of Genesis it is you/YECs who are ultimately responsible for setting up the credibility of your god-claims for taking that "Fall". By tying the credibility your god claims to a particular interpretation of your deity's alleged Holy text it is YECs who is ultimately responsible making your religious beliefs appear false when your claims of scientific accuracy are disproven. That is why creationism is the one of the biggest enemies of Christianity and a legion of atheists couldn't do more to discredit the faith than this linkage of the faith to a long discredited hypothesis (YEC).

If YEC was really science then you would not have to bring your deity (a very unscientific element) into the picture because the supernatural (your god-claims) and science are totally incompatible because science can only investigate that which is perceptible to the 5 senses. To call your claims "pseudoscience" is an accurate characterization because your entire origin hypothesis rests on a completely unscientific premise, i.e., God-did-it! the YEC way! (no way to use science to investigate this claim). In addition, your particular hypothesis was disproven by scientists who themselves were creationists (often ministers as well), but like the honest men they were, had to admit to themselves that the empirical evidence (the foundation of a scientific theory) simply didn't support their creationist views. I posted an example of this to you before (again, since you seem to have ignored it).

Post #45--Falsification of the Flood by Creationists

What I don't see is the wholesale departure of most of them from their theist views, i.e., evolution was simply God's method for "tooling creation". Evolution, in and of itself, is NOT disproof of God UNLESS you insist of tying credibility of your God-claims to a particular interpretation of Genesis. Realize that by doing so, such an "obligatory" association between Christainity and YEC (can't be a TRUE Christian™ unless one is also a YEC) is simply setting Christianity up for a big hit in the credibility department, because YEC is without any kind of scientific support. Look at it this way, can I claim that your god doesn't exist if YEC is false? (you made the connection here, so my question is a valid one). Hopefully you will see the risk associated by this kind of association.

Are you afraid of God? He's not afraid of you.

It's really ridiculous to suppose that an atheist, who lacks belief in your God would be afraid of something that s/he doesn't believe exists.

Oh, and BTW evolution DOES NOT equal atheism. I used to be a devout Christian and my departure from Christianity had nothing to do with evolution.

Remember that there are plenty of Christians on this board who are also evolutionists as well and their belief that evolution is valid has not shaken their faith in God.

 

[JoshDanger]

I really wish people would stop using the word "evolutionist". I hold much stock in the theory of evolution, about as much as I do with the theory of gravity. Neither of these things makes me an "evolutionist" nor a "gravatationist" or whatever. They are made-up buzzwords.

Also, I really don't see where people get the idea that complexity is some sign for intelligence. Our bodies are anything but efficient, how is that proof that we were designed?

 

[Nymphalidae]

I really wish people would stop using the word "evolutionist". I hold much stock in the theory of evolution, about as much as I do with the theory of gravity. Neither of these things makes me an "evolutionist" nor a "gravatationist" or whatever. They are made-up buzzwords.

Also, I really don't see where people get the idea that complexity is some sign for intelligence. Our bodies are anything but efficient, how is that proof that we were designed?

I don't understand why complexity automatically means there must be a designer. It's counterintuitive to me.

 

[f U z ! o N]

I know what you mean SackLunch, already only 3 out of 8 people who have replied to this are Christians. Its really boring, this forum because you can't have a proper debate when your ganged up on by athiests. Also the athiests must be REALLY sad because all they do is waste their life coming on to a CHRISTIAN forum for hours upon end, they say theres no meaning to life, so i don't see why their not out there livin' it up rather than sitting at home attacking christians... what an exciting life they lead .

ROFL what a dumb statement! your ganged up on because hardly any creationists EDUCATE themeselves before coming on here. and what about the christians who come on here for hours on end? what about Christians attacking athiests? think before you type.

 

[Big Rob]

SackLunch said:

Ostensibly this forum is a place to debate Creationism verses Evolution. But in reality, it is simply a place to discuss all things evolution and ferociously attack anyone who dissents or brings their talk of God and "pseudoscience" into the mix. This was verified by another poster recently, that some members of this board have banded together in an effort to "purge" this forum of anyone who holds Christian Creationist views.

NEWSFLASH: This is a Christian board. This is not a secular scientific board. You should expect such views.

Why is this? Why can't you guys handle a good 'ol fashioned Creationsim vs. Evolution debate which is supposed to be what this forum is all about? Why do you constantly trash God and the Bible, then when confronted with it, you say, "Ah no, it's okay, people can believe what they want to believe." Then you turn around and trash God and the Bible some more, calling it all "pseudoscience" and "fairy tales." What's up with your double-talk? Can you own up to what you say?

Are you afraid of God? He's not afraid of you.

but all I heard was:

Waah Stop persecuting me. Stop calling me out when I make rediculous and completely baseless claims about things I don't understand