What's the point? Evolution...

[stevendrake]

Mock at your own risk. You know I meant people funnyman.

 

[necroforest]

So, since these words are obviously falling on deaf ears reread #221 and try very hard to comprehend the point. I'm sure you can do it if you try really hard. You want to argue and I elect to find better things to do with my time.

Translation: "I'm wrong and have no argument. In fact, I can't even respond to specific points in any type of coherent way beyond telling you to read some book. I don't care that I blatently misrepresent the opposition's vews, I'm sure jayzus would do the same thing"

 

[necroforest]

Mock at your own risk. You know I meant people funnyman.

Maybe you sure write in a manner so that people can actually tell what you're talking about?

 

[Patashu]

stevendrake, do you have any personal understanding of the issues surrounding the creationism vs evolution debate, or do you only know where to find stuff to copy and paste from so it looks like you do?

 

[Tomk80]

I am interested in what you have to say. But that wasn't what I started this about. Further science knowledge that points to creation was the original point so bash if you like but you are in the wrong forum for it. Technically.

There is no further science knowledge that points to creation. Sorry to break it to you, but that's how it is. Professional (ID-)creationists are crancks, frauds, quacks and snake-oil salesmen and their rubbish has no scientific validity whatsoever. Deal with it.

 

[Baggins]

Like I was saying... Read "Case for Faith" and talk to those (probably) much more educated than you and see where their claims come from.

Apologetics is down the hall. We do science and evidence here

 

[Tomk80]

Apologetics is down the hall. We do science and evidence here

Regarding "case for faith". As far as I'm concerned rubbish between (hard-)covers is still rubbish. Just as dog poo is still dog poo after you've rapped it in a nice pink ribbon. Although if it fossilizes and then is rapped in a pink ribbin it might make a paleontogist very happy.

 

[flatworm]

Wow, just when I thought this thread was dead the nonsense starts coming hard and fast.

First, with the spaghetti god thing... The next time you bring your sugar high in the room, bring lollipops for the rest of the class "child".

Gratuitous put-down... check.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is merely a tongue-in-cheek way of illustrating a very serious philisophical problem with apologetics in general. Briefly, there really aren't any arguments that believers use to support the existence of their God that cannot just as easily be turned to support any fictional character we care to imagine.

Next, no I didn't stray from the topic and if I did not by much. I want to know how you account for all the material around and in you. All this matter came from somewhere.

1) It's quite possible that the total mass/energy of the universe is zero.

2) It's possible matter always has been.

3) If it hasn't always been, not knowing how it came here does not imply the existence of a god, let alone your god. That's an argument from ignorance and it's a logical fallacy. If you don't know, you don't know- you don't just get to plug in your favourite mythology.

The matter you say evolved somehow by itself. We can approximate when but not truly and definitively where it came from. There will never be enough proof for either argument anyway. Not in this life anyway. I am a Christian not by proof but by faith. Same as you ( atheist by faith ), not by proof...

No, I disbelieve in God in exactly the same way as I disbelieve in fairies, ghosts, goblins, and intergalactic space hamsters... and Flying Spaghetti Monsters.

Proof of non-existence it called "proving a universal negative" and is well-nigh impossible to come by. There is a potentially infinite number of things that we cannot prove do not exist. Since it is impossible to even grant them all serious consideration, we dismiss them all equally until such time as evidence requires that we change our evaluation. So it is with your god and every other god.

At best all these things pointing toward our coming from monkeys, fish or sludge pools of whatever are not proof.

They are evidence, which is all any scientific idea ever has. The evidence for evolution is probably the strongest there is for any scientific theory in history.

Vague pictures to give you hope that life has no consequences or meaning is all they are.

It's amazing how you're able to both mischaracterize atheists and conflate them with people who accept evolution, all in one sentence.

I've already explained the difference; do you think it's honest to continue perpetuating that misunderstanding?

If you want to believe you are here for absolutely no reason other than to take up space, that's your choice.

I decide reasons for my own existence. You do too, you just tell yourself they come from elsewhere.

I would hate think of my life that way. It saddens me but you are not my burden. I'll pray for you as I do for anyone who is not saved but that's as much as you will effect my life.

I don't particularly feel the need to affect your life. In return I'll ask you not to affect mine, i.e. not voting for creationists who seek to keep everyone stupid along with their own kids.

Also this is for every Atheist reading and posting!!! I started this post in the interest of fellowship with other christians. "Any suggestion for literature along the same lines?" Just because you came along and thought it was your duty to run a Satan parade in here doesn't change the intent of the forum.

Your Satan doesn't exist either, and I therefore am not doing his bidding. You waltzed into a debate and discussion forum with a post full of ignorance and arrogance. Do you expect everyone else to just let it slide by uncontested?

You may call it what you want but in my faith I call it as I sees it. I'll break it down for you since you seem to retain propaganda but lack comprehension.

If there's one thing you've demonstrated, it's that you never have understood basic biology, let alone evolution specifically. What's more it appears you're not interested in understanding, only preaching and apologetics. That's down the hall, if you please.

I don't care who posts in here but get "YOUR" facts straight.

Your hypocrisy is noted.

 

[Nathan Poe]

So, since these words are obviously falling on deaf ears reread #221 and try very hard to comprehend the point. I'm sure you can do it if you try really hard. You want to argue and I elect to find better things to do with my time.

If that were true, you wouldn't still be here, trying to convince yourself that you're smarter than us.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

You are the ones with no real proof how things started. When not how.

Creationism is dead in the water; its just people want leave go of the wreckage for fear of sinking into the ocean of knowledge.

 

[Vene]

Also this is for every Atheist reading and posting!!! I started this post in the interest of fellowship with other christians. "Any suggestion for literature along the same lines?" Just because you came along and thought it was your duty to run a Satan parade in here doesn't change the intent of the forum. You may call it what you want but in my faith I call it as I sees it. I'll break it down for you since you seem to retain propaganda but lack comprehension. First reread the original post. Ah... Sounded a lot like a call for others of the same belief to point me in the direction of literature to further my understanding God's complexity. Biased it may be but that is my interest. So get off of your high horse - And next time don't "YOU" change the subject. I don't care who posts in here but get "YOUR" facts straight.

Satan parade? Are you being serious? I guess this is what happens when you get presented evidence against your lies and you have nothing in return. Even your wife's copypasta was shot down.

God Bless

No.

 

[FishFace]

Read "Case for Faith" and then argue with the "scientists" that came up with their ideas.

A case for faith is incoherent. If there were a (rational) case for it, it wouldn't be faith.

 

[FishFace]

First, with the spaghetti god thing... The next time you bring your sugar high in the room, bring lollipops for the rest of the class "child". Your rhetoric have no place here. I have a good sense of humor but that was just idiotic and bad taste. Save it for someone who will be impressed.

It's not funny, it's deadly serious. Your God is no more or less believable, no more or less ridiculous than this flying spaghetti monster.

Next, no I didn't stray from the topic and if I did not by much. I want to know how you account for all the material around and in you. All this matter came from somewhere. The matter you say evolved somehow by itself.

How do I account for it? I say it, or rather, the energy that it is made from, has always existed. It didn't "come from" anywhere.

We can approximate when but not truly and definitively where it came from. There will never be enough proof for either argument anyway. Not in this life anyway. I am a Christian not by proof but by faith. Same as you ( atheist by faith ), not by proof... At best all these things pointing toward our coming from monkeys, fish or sludge pools of whatever are not proof. Vague pictures to give you hope that life has no consequences or meaning is all they are.

I don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster. If you want to say you take it on faith that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, well then go ahead.

Also this is for every Atheist reading and posting!!! I started this post in the interest of fellowship with other christians. "Any suggestion for literature along the same lines?" Just because you came along and thought it was your duty to run a Satan parade in here doesn't change the intent of the forum. You may call it what you want but in my faith I call it as I sees it. I'll break it down for you since you seem to retain propaganda but lack comprehension. First reread the original post. Ah... Sounded a lot like a call for others of the same belief to point me in the direction of literature to further my understanding God's complexity. Biased it may be but that is my interest. So get off of your high horse - And next time don't "YOU" change the subject. I don't care who posts in here but get "YOUR" facts straight.

God Bless

Haha, he calls us a Satan Parade and then says "God Bless." If there's one thing that ticks me off it's the smug, superior feeling I bet you get when you say you'll pray for someone or you bless them. Regardless of whether you admit to it.

And no, it's not just biased - it's closed-minded and intellectually dishonest.

 

[AngusArgyle]

I know I am not adding to this 'debate' but just wanted to note that I read every post on this thread and loved every minute of it..

To see such flagrant ignorance combined with such arrogance was truly enjoyable.

Anyway, I just hope those two don't reproduce.

 

[Cabal]

I think that's a tad optimistic.

 

[atomweaver]

First, with the spaghetti god thing... The next time you bring your sugar high in the room, bring lollipops for the rest of the class "child". Your rhetoric have no place here. I have a good sense of humor but that was just idiotic and bad taste. Save it for someone who will be impressed.

To engage in the creo vs. evo debate, and yet pretend to have not heard of the "Flying Spaghetti Monster"..? Color me not impressed.

Next, no I didn't stray from the topic and if I did not by much. I want to know how you account for all the material around and in you. All this matter came from somewhere. The matter you say evolved somehow by itself. We can approximate when but not truly and definitively where it came from.

Here's a subject actually worth treating for a few minutes with a bit of seriousness. Implicit in your comments, above, is the following assumption; in order for biological evolution to be valid, one must know thoroughly the universal origin of all matter. To which I respond; Why?

This assumption has been made by quite a few creationists, and I think it is simply wrong. Knowledge is parsable at a certain level, and we see that fact all the time.
Does a person working a forge need to know all of the particulars of the universal origin and complete atomic nature of iron and carbon in order to produce good steel? No, his limited knowledge serves him perfectly well.
Does an electronics engineer need to know where the silicon in the microchips comes from, in a theological sense, to make a working computer? Again, no. It is possible to make a working computer without such knowledge.
If we needed to know everything about a subject, before we could assert that we know anything, there would be no progresssion of knowledge at all, in any subject... Fortunately, there are examples of the progressive nature of the accumulation of knowledge in just about every field of inquiry (including Christian theology), so we know that this assumption is wrong.

Likewise, biological evolution does not require biologists to know all about the origin of all matter, in order for its predictions and conclusions about biological life to have value.

So, if you want to assert that someone needs to know the universal origin of everything in order to make some mundane statements about things as they are, you've got a lot work to do in justifying that assumption. There are more disciplines to apply that point of view to than just the theory of biological evolution, and in each case you'll end up with the same conclusion; such universal, absolute knowledge is actually not necessary, in order for the discipline to produce useful things...

There will never be enough proof for either argument anyway. Not in this life anyway. I am a Christian not by proof but by faith.

Fortunately, proof is not needed. What you do need, though, for good science, is a good working model, ie one whose predictions are useful in some way. With a good working knowledge of the theory of evolution, one can, among other things, 1) make better medicines, 2) determine the hereditary origin of something or someone, 3) add knowledge of geology, and the ToE can help you find oil. Many more examples exist...

I am not aware of any practical advantage to a good working knowledge of creationism. There may be theological advantages for some, but thats more or less it.

Same as you ( atheist by faith ), not by proof... At best all these things pointing toward our coming from monkeys, fish or sludge pools of whatever are not proof. Vague pictures to give you hope that life has no consequences or meaning is all they are.

..? You've got some strange ideas about what other people think the theory of evolution is used for. You'd be better off actually asking someone what evolution means to them, rather than jumping to these absurd conclusions. Evolution is not a system of morality. Its just a mundane theory about how biological diversity happened... and that is all it is, nothing more.

If you want to believe you are here for absolutely no reason other than to take up space, that's your choice.

What on Earth is it about the theory of evolution, which makes you (or other creationists) jump to this conclusion..?

I would hate think of my life that way. It saddens me but you are not my burden. I'll pray for you as I do for anyone who is not saved but that's as much as you will effect my life.


Also this is for every Atheist reading and posting!!! I started this post in the interest of fellowship with other christians.

Then you should have posted it in a "christians-only" section. I think you want the Creationist-only subforum of the General Theology. Your opinions will go completely unchallenged, there, if that is what you desire...

"

Any suggestion for literature along the same lines?" Just because you came along and thought it was your duty to run a Satan parade in here doesn't change the intent of the forum. You may call it what you want but in my faith I call it as I sees it. I'll break it down for you since you seem to retain propaganda but lack comprehension. First reread the original post. Ah... Sounded a lot like a call for others of the same belief to point me in the direction of literature to further my understanding God's complexity. Biased it may be but that is my interest. So get off of your high horse - And next time don't "YOU" change the subject. I don't care who posts in here but get "YOUR" facts straight.

Common sense would indicate that before posting in a forum, you would read the forum guidelines and a few extant posts before diving in. You are in the wrong sub-forum, if you want your views to be posted without discussion or debate. Now you know better. I hope that helps you out in the future...