What's the difference?

[JEBrady]

Brady, the gift of prophecy is defined as I stated it from Paul in the scriptures, but you can find places where that word "prophecy" or "to prophesy" is used over situations. Does that mean the gift of prophecy was in operation at that point? No it doesn't.

Yes it does. By definition. It's the same Gk word.

For instance, the passage I quoted tamara,..



Would this be the gift of prophecy in action? No it wouldn't because it is revelation bein shown through The Lord Jesus. This was the word of knowledge in operation because it dealt with facts to the lady, both current and past.

Correct. Jesus didn't appear to be prophesying, just speaking a word of knowledge. More than that, the word doesn't term it as prophecy. However, I gave you more than 2 or 3 witnesses in NT scripture that termed something other than edification, exhortation or comfort specifically as prophecy.

The gift of prophecy deals with inspiration, not revelation.

And yet the scripture states that revelation is by inspiration:

16 uAll Scripture is given by inspiration of God, vand is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for 3instruction in righteousness, 17 wthat the man of God may be complete, xthoroughly equipped for every good work.​

The catagories of these gifts are particular, and they are also individual. These gifts do not blend. No matter what a person may call something, we must look at the action happening and understand what the gift was that was in operation at that moment.

This is where you're missing it. It is the same Spirit that works all these manifestations together. He isn't limited- there are many operations and they can come simultaneously. Once you're under the anointing, you can get revelation while prophesying. It doesn't suddenly stop being prophecy just because it went into word of wisdom and/or word of knowledge. The clincher though, is that the Word shows this specifically by stating that other things come through prophecy. And they always have. I limited my comments to NT only, because that's where you seemed to be hung up.

Examples,..

When someone is healed by the gifts of healings, do we call that prophecy?

When someone calls out a demon from someone and they are delivered by the gift of faith, do we also call this prophecy?

If they called out the demon, that was a word of knowledge, and possibly faith at the same time.

Do you have much experience in this practically? Have you operated in these gifts or seen them operate? Because healing can come by a word of knowledge. I've seen it. I've operated in word of wisdom through prophecy and when not prophesying, and it manifests differently. If not prophesying, I get the word in my understanding, and then share it just as Jesus did in the case with the woman at the well. If it comes through prophecy, I don't know it until I hear my own voice speak it. The operation is different. Do you remember in 1 Co 12 where it says there are different operations?

What gift do you think is operating when the dead are raised? Certainly, that is the working of miracles. But the body needs to be healed, so is it not gifts of healings?

Pentecostals have understood that simple prophecy is just as you insist- edification, exhortation and comfort. But in more than 20 years and a respectable amount of study and experience, I have never seen anyone outside of you that doesn't understand that revelation can come during prophecy, or that when the Holy Spirit manifests, these things can and do come together by the same Spirit.

But who cares about experience in the Spirit. Bottom line, the word shows, and I posted it, that prophecy is definitely not limited to edification, exhortation and comfort. If you won't accept what the scripture says, you will definitely not receive what I have said.

 

[ARBITER01]

Also, does not the scripture say that one can be taught by prophecy as well:

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

I came back to this section Brady because GOD brought to rememberance something that happened during prophecy last Sunday.

We had a prophecy from a lady in one of my church's where The Holy Spirit started quoting the book of revelation through her. She almost quoted a whole chapter. Now,.... is that teaching through prophecy? Yes it very well could be considered teaching for our spirit that way, but is teaching now considered a part of the definition of the gift of prophecy? No it is not.

When The Holy Spirit spoke scripture through her by the gift of prophecy, it was still inspired utterance that fell under the ministry of edification from this gift.

 

[ARBITER01]

Yes it does. By definition. It's the same Gk word.




Correct. Jesus didn't appear to be prophesying, just speaking a word of knowledge. More than that, the word doesn't term it as prophecy. However, I gave you more than 2 or 3 witnesses in NT scripture that termed something other than edification, exhortation or comfort specifically as prophecy.



And yet the scripture states that revelation is by inspiration:

16 uAll Scripture is given by inspiration of God, vand is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for 3instruction in righteousness, 17 wthat the man of God may be complete, xthoroughly equipped for every good work.​

This is where you're missing it. It is the same Spirit that works all these manifestations together. He isn't limited- there are many operations and they can come simultaneously. Once you're under the anointing, you can get revelation while prophesying. It doesn't suddenly stop being prophecy just because it went into word of wisdom and/or word of knowledge. The clincher though, is that the Word shows this specifically by stating that other things come through prophecy. And they always have. I limited my comments to NT only, because that's where you seemed to be hung up.



If they called out the demon, that was a word of knowledge, and possibly faith at the same time.

Do you have much experience in this practically? Have you operated in these gifts or seen them operate? Because healing can come by a word of knowledge. I've seen it. I've operated in word of wisdom through prophecy and when not prophesying, and it manifests differently. If not prophesying, I get the word in my understanding, and then share it just as Jesus did in the case with the woman at the well. If it comes through prophecy, I don't know it until I hear my own voice speak it. The operation is different. Do you remember in 1 Co 12 where it says there are different operations?

What gift do you think is operating when the dead are raised? Certainly, that is the working of miracles. But the body needs to be healed, so is it not gifts of healings?

Pentecostals have understood that simple prophecy is just as you insist- edification, exhortation and comfort. But in more than 20 years and a respectable amount of study and experience, I have never seen anyone outside of you that doesn't understand that revelation can come during prophecy, or that when the Holy Spirit manifests, these things can and do come together by the same Spirit.

But who cares about experience in the Spirit. Bottom line, the word shows, and I posted it, that prophecy is definitely not limited to edification, exhortation and comfort. If you won't accept what the scripture says, you will definitely not receive what I have said.

I'm going to make a short and sweet statement to this post because I'm tired of my material being gobbled up when I try to provide a point by point refutation of your false assertions,..

Yes it does. By definition. It's the same Gk word.

No your wrong, even if it is the same word, and this can be proven,..

In Ezekiel, GOD commands the prophet to prophesy over the dead bones, he does as GOD says, and new bodies are restored upon them. Now is that the gift of prophecy in action? Not at all, that was the gift of the working of miracles in action because GOD's power was called into the scene and HE did the work for the prophet.

Now do we add raising the dead onto the definition of the gift of prophecy here and complicate the scripture definition we have over in 1 Cor, or do we go by the definition given there and try to understand what gift is doing what by revelation from The Holy Spirit?

In your eyes, we should have a big huge list of things that fall under what the gift of prophecy is, and all that will do is cause confusion, and all of us know who confusion comes from.

I would suggest that you take your 20 years worth of study and chuck it out the window and go buy some material from victorious saints who walked the walk without failure, who were taught by GOD themselves, such as Lester Sumrall, Howard Carter, ect. In their material, you will find the same teachings that I expound here, separate gifts doing great things, not simultaneous gifts having confusing definitions and outcomes.

And no, I won't listen to such nonsense from you since it has no witness in my spirit from The Holy Spirit. He witnesses to truth, and you are not posting that here on this subject whatsoever.

 

[JEBrady]

I have Howard Carter's book, Spiritual Gifts and Their Operation. On p. 70 of that book, Carter states, "If a revelation comes through the gift of prophecy, it is not the gift of prophecy that is functioning alone, but two gifts are in manifestation".

I said, "This is where you're missing it. It is the same Spirit that works all these manifestations together. He isn't limited- there are many operations and they can come simultaneously. Once you're under the anointing, you can get revelation while prophesying. It doesn't suddenly stop being prophecy just because it went into word of wisdom and/or word of knowledge. The clincher though, is that the Word shows this specifically by stating that other things come through prophecy."

So, a word of wisdom can come through prophecy. That doesn't make the word of wisdom prophecy, but it came through prophecy. You said, "In your eyes, we should have a big huge list of things that fall under what the gift of prophecy is, and all that will do is cause confusion, and all of us know who confusion comes from." That's nowhere near what I said, and I begin to think you deliberately misunderstand.

To continue, on p. 71, Carter continues (my bold): "Now prochecy can have revelation in it, but then there will be two gifts functioning together; there is the gift of prophecy, which is the simplest form of inspired utterance in a known language, and there is the revelation by the word of wisdom or the word of knowledge."

I'm glad you brought up Carter, since you seem to hold him in some esteem. I believe God used him pivotally to help restore some understanding of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit back into the church. He and I said the same thing, and I have him to thank, along with others like Harold Horton, who God used to help me to come to some understanding of the word on this subject.

 

[ARBITER01]

That don't sound like the same Howard Carter that was quoted in his book "Questions & Answers on Spiritual Gifts." Lester Sumrall doesn't say anything like that in his book eithr. You sure we are talking the same person here?

For instance on Page 12 of this same book,..

Is there no revelation in prophecy?
-We shall deal with this gift fully when we come to it but sufficient to say at the moment that in the simple gift of prophecy itself there is no revelation.

But is it not generally accepted that prophecy and prediction are the same?
-Yes this is genreally accepted because the term prophecy is a general one as well as specific; but as previously stated, we shall deal with this subject later.

Page 29,..

How are we using the term "prophecy" in these studies?
-We shall use the term "prophecy" to signifiy the prophetic gift of utterance, and the prophetic gift which is the sixth in the catalogue has no prediction in it. It is the simplest form of inspired utterance, which we shall deal with more specifically when we come to it. So when we use the phrase "word of wisdom" we mean predictions, which are so often called prophecy.

And over in page 30,..

Prophecy, therefore, specifically speaking, is not prediction.
-Prophecy is not the word of wisdom, and it is not the word of knowledge, and yet the word of wisdom and the word of knowledge may come into prophecy. When the word of wisdom, or the word of knowledge, is heard in a prophetic utterance, we call it prophecy, but it is not SPECIFICALLY prophecy.

Page 69,..

If a person who had the gift of faith laid hands on someone for healing, would they be healed?
-As previously stated, one gift will not function in the place of another. The fact that a person had the gift of faith gives him no perogative to exercise the gifts of healing. Because an individusl possessses the working of miracles, he will not be able, by the gift of miracles, to discern spirits. Faith to believe that a person will be healed lies in the gifts of healing. The faith necessary for the working of miracles to operate, is in the gift of miracles. The faith for speaking in tongues lies in the gift of tongues. One gift will not help another to operate.

Page 74,..

Is it possible to spend the whole night praying for a sick person and yet nothing happen, while a man with the gift of faith prays for a few minutes only and experiences great delieverances?
-Two gifts are now being confused. The gift of faith is not for healing the sick. That belongs to the gifts of healing. In the same way, it does not follow because we can speak with tongues that by the gift of tongues we can discern spirits. Gifts are separate and distinct one from the other. Every gift, like each lamp on the lampstand, is a separate one, and in no sense dependant upon another.

It is like that throughout his whole book, so I don't know what person you are talking about. He never says a single gift is combined with another, never, and I agree with him only because The Holy Spirit witnesses it as truth to my spirit and the scriptures testify to it.

 

[JEBrady]

Of course it's the same Howard Carter. Practically anyone in the AoG who looks into this subject knows who he was. He was God's choice to restore this understanding, which he claimed to have received while in prison. Sumrall met him when he was half Carter's age and they traveled extensively.

This is from the forward to Spiritual Gifts and Their Operation, p.3:

"The author's [Carter] former book on the subject, Questions and Answers on the Gifts of the Spirit differs considerably from this one, chiefly in that it deals with questions on the subject answered with the utmost brevity; whereas this book is concerned more with specific instances and stories that make for easy reading."

Essentially, you're quoting from the "Cliff's Notes" version of Carter's writing. Carter goes into more detail in my book. None of your quotes contradict the excerpts I posted, and if you would look closer you could see it. For instance:

Is there no revelation in prophecy?
-We shall deal with this gift fully when we come to it but sufficient to say at the moment that in the simple gift of prophecy itself there is no revelation.

Did you see he says in the "simple gift of prophecy itself". There's more to say about it, since a word of wisdom/word of knowledge can come through prophecy, as he directly states in the later book, which I posted previously.

I'm really having to bite my tongue, because I don't want to make it difficult for you to come around to a proper understanding. I am just as stubborn as you, but with one difference. If someone shows me in the Word, I'll change. I stayed in the beginner Sunday School class for 9 years under a man of great patience, who made no statement that he couldn't back up in scripture. I would question him, and he always just showed me in the Word. That's how I got established.

Here is a link to the book. It's twice the price it was when I bought it, but still pretty cheap at $5.95:

Spiritual Gifts and their Operation
by Howard Carter
Gospel Publishing House
Springfield, MO 65802
5th Printing 1988
ISBN 0-88243-593-0

 

[ARBITER01]

Brady, I appreciate the link you provided and will purchase that book to add to the material to gleen from.

I'm going to suggest that you go over those quotes I posted again to see if he mentions about the gifts combining somehow. I don't see it, and unless he changed his mind later on, it is not in this book I have or in Lester's book, and he traveled up close with him.

Now,...does that mean that Mr. Carter was always correct in all of his discriptions? No,..especially over his desciption of the word of wisdom. The Holy Spirit can use a person's teaching to help another, but where they did not get it right, The Holy Spirit can provide revelation on what is correct. He and His word must be the only true source.

Again, I appreciate the information you provided and will look into it soon.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I read many things labeled a "prophetic word" here and I would simply call it an inspirational thought about God/scripture.

That is being very generous . I have seen them as no more than being excited about a doctrine or teaching that they heard in their group or that they came up with in their own reading . The latter does look like what you were discussing ) . Yet , I have seen very few in the latter category and most ( by far the most ) in the former category as I have heard those ideas over and over before .

Where do we draw the line between a prophetic word and an inspirational thought? Why do we throw around the phrase "prophetic word" like we do? No one has a problem with inspirational thoughts. If we didn't have to get all particular in calling things "prophetic words", then we wouldn't have polls and wikis and controversies.
Those who do not think that prophetic words should be allowed on the forum (like myself) most certainly do NOT want for inspirational thoughts to cease. I am simply tired of having to fancy things up by calling them fancy names. I've often heard that a true sign of a Prophet or Apostle is that they do not insist on being called such. If that it is true (which it may not be), then wouldn't it also be true that a prophetic word should not insist on being called such?

A true prophecy doesn't need to have itself thrown out there as something special . The Lord will get to the people He wants . When people need to have their idea considered as special , they are trying to make it about them and not about the Lord nor about those to whom He is speaking ( if He is speaking ) .

 

[Enter]

That is being very generous . I have seen them as no more than being excited about a doctrine or teaching that they heard in their group or that they came up with in their own reading . The latter does look like what you were discussing ) . Yet , I have seen very few in the latter category and most ( by far the most ) in the former category as I have heard those ideas over and over before .




A true prophecy doesn't need to have itself thrown out there as something special . The Lord will get to the people He wants . When people need to have their idea considered as special , they are trying to make it about them and not about the Lord nor about those to whom He is speaking ( if He is speaking ) .

Ask Jesus!

 

[New_Wineskin]

Ask Jesus!

Yep .

 

[JEBrady]

Brady, I appreciate the link you provided and will purchase that book to add to the material to gleen from.

I'm going to suggest that you go over those quotes I posted again to see if he mentions about the gifts combining somehow. I don't see it, and unless he changed his mind later on, it is not in this book I have or in Lester's book, and he traveled up close with him.

Now,...does that mean that Mr. Carter was always correct in all of his discriptions? No,..especially over his desciption of the word of wisdom. The Holy Spirit can use a person's teaching to help another, but where they did not get it right, The Holy Spirit can provide revelation on what is correct. He and His word must be the only true source.

Again, I appreciate the information you provided and will look into it soon.

There's no discrepancy between the two works. You've drawn an inaccurate conclusion based on your incomplete understanding of the subject. Maybe that's due to inexperience.

As for now doubting Carter, please remember, it was you who rather rudely told me what I posted was nonsense, and that I needed to toss 20 years of study and pay attention to him. So now that you perceive he doesn't support your position, you want to say he's wrong. Originally, though, you recommended him as a victorious saint who was taught by God Himself. How things change.

You know, there's something else going on here that has nothing to do with the subject under discussion, and it's of extreme importance for you to discern it. I spent this morning before church praying for you, because I believe God wants to use you. But He isn't going to be able to until you're willing to humble yourself.

 

[Adammi]

Whom are you asking?

IMO, yes but only insofar as you define "inspirational" to mean uplifting/edifying and not "inspired by God."

I was asking anyone.

It seems to me that most here would say that the difference between a spiritually uplifting thought and a prophetic word is that a prophetic word is from God.

In that case, I much more strongly oppose prophetic words being used on CF.
While I do believe in prophetic words, I do not think that CF is the place for people to be using them because it screams for abuse. I do not think that people on CF should be allowed to say that God told them something supernaturally.

 

[ARBITER01]

There's no discrepancy between the two works. You've drawn an inaccurate conclusion based on your incomplete understanding of the subject. Maybe that's due to inexperience.

As for now doubting Carter, please remember, it was you who rather rudely told me what I posted was nonsense, and that I needed to toss 20 years of study and pay attention to him. So now that you perceive he doesn't support your position, you want to say he's wrong. Originally, though, you recommended him as a victorious saint who was taught by God Himself. How things change.

You know, there's something else going on here that has nothing to do with the subject under discussion, and it's of extreme importance for you to discern it. I spent this morning before church praying for you, because I believe God wants to use you. But He isn't going to be able to until you're willing to humble yourself.

Brady, quit trying to use my honesty against me. The ony reason I would point out that Carter would have an area wrong is 1) he is only a man, and 2) The Holy Spirit and His word are the only real truth.

Just because The Holy Spirit revealed an area that he was flawed in doesn't mean his works are to be tossed out and never used. I never said that, you did. I stand by what he said about the gifts being distinctive in their operations because both Carter AND Sumrall state the same thing about it, but most of all, The Holy Spirit witnesses to their assertions and His word never says anything different.

And let me help you out with something here Brady, you keep your little so-called words that you think are from The Holy Spirit and your judgements of me to yourself. You are only allowed to judge my fruit, not me, just like I can't judge you according to scripture. I certainly didn't ask for any sort of guidance from you by The Holy Spirit, nor would I. I will follow HIS will, not yours.

If you want to mix these things up before folks and be confused about it and confuse others, be my guest, but don't think that I or anyone else has to follow your example, we are to conform to the image of HIS Son, not you.

 

[JEBrady]

Brady, quit trying to use my honesty against me. The ony reason I would point out that Carter would have an area wrong is 1) he is only a man, and 2) The Holy Spirit and His word are the only real truth.

Just because The Holy Spirit revealed an area that he was flawed in doesn't mean his works are to be tossed out and never used. I never said that, you did. I stand by what he said about the gifts being distinctive in their operations because both Carter AND Sumrall state the same thing about it, but most of all, The Holy Spirit witnesses to their assertions and His word never says anything different.

And let me help you out with something here Brady, you keep your little so-called words that you think are from The Holy Spirit and your judgements of me to yourself. You are only allowed to judge my fruit, not me, just like I can't judge you according to scripture. I certainly didn't ask for any sort of guidance from you by The Holy Spirit, nor would I. I will follow HIS will, not yours.

If you want to mix these things up before folks and be confused about it and confuse others, be my guest, but don't think that I or anyone else has to follow your example, we are to conform to the image of HIS Son, not you.

I was hoping for something better out of you, but I'm really not surprised.

 

[ARBITER01]

I was hoping for something better out of you, but I'm really not surprised.

Brady, discussing things with me, providing information and such, even bantering between ourselves about what we hold to in true scripture is fine, just don't place yourself into that position where you think you are one of his servants that HE has pointed out to me that I can trust. You are not.

GOD already has particular people placed around me that are quite spiritually mature, that HE speaks through and has me listen to on a regular basis.

Just don't think you are empowered to speak for GOD to me, and we will be fine. I'm not going to hear and accept that on a message board.

 

[JEBrady]

Brady, discussing things with me, providing information and such, even bantering between ourselves about what we hold to in true scripture is fine, just don't place yourself into that position where you think you are one of his servants that HE has pointed out to me that I can trust. You are not.

GOD already has particular people placed around me that are quite spiritually mature, that HE speaks through and has me listen to on a regular basis.

Just don't think you are empowered to speak for GOD to me, and we will be fine. I'm not going to hear and accept that on a message board.

Maybe you should have one of them review this thread. Just a thought.

 

[ARBITER01]

Maybe you should have one of them review this thread. Just a thought.

Maybe you just don't like being told not to do that. People want to be controlling, and I just don't let them be that way with me, especially on a message board.