What's the difference between Satan and Lucifer?

[yeshuasavedme]

This is one of the most convoluted understandings of Ezekiel I have heard. Adam wasn't in heaven until Jesus defeated death on the cross. Adam never walked among the stones of fire or upon the mountain of God before he sined. Adam nor any King of Tyrus was ever called the anointed cherub that covers. Adam was a human being and so was a king of Tyrus no matter how long ago he lived. They were not created covered with diamonds, topaz, sardius, jasper, and sapphires. This cherub that covers shined brightly. Twice in these passages this being is called the cherub that covers. If you don't want to simply read what is written instead of making up stories about what is written I see no reason to talk about this anymore. Thanks for the discussion none the less, it was interesting.

Psalm 82, I've studied it in the Hebrew, is about the devine council and how God first mocks the higharchy angels, and then in how He is going to deal with the highacrhy angels who sin. Adam was not a god in the assembly, 82 is not about Adam at all.

Wait! Don't go yet....there is a lot of information in the passage you are missing.

Firstly: Adam was removed from earth below and set in Paradise above. Genesis 2
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took/laqach [-to go get, fetch, marry, remove from one place to another....] Adam, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

The Tree of Life is in the midst of the Garden. The Garden is Paradise.
Paradise is in the third heaven.

There is a throne in Paradise for the Son of Man, as seen in Enoch, who is God the Word, and in whose image to come Adam was made [Genesis 1:26-28; Romans 5:14]: the Son of Man is in Paradise even when He is in the flesh of incarnation. He did not cease being The Son of Man in heaven when He put on human flesh prepared for Him to don like a garment [Isaiah 59; John 3:13]

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

. So the Son of Man was in flesh on earth, and in Paradise above still, as the Son of Man.

The thief on the cross who repented died after Jesus said: "It is finished!", and that man went right into the presence of the Son of Man in Paradise above, and did not go to Sheol below because when Jesus died, no man who died in faith descended to Sheol from that time.


So Paradise is above, and is the Garden of God, and is in Mount Eden of the heavenly realm.
Also, the heavenly realm is stretched out from the earth on day 2 of creation week, between the divided in two waters of creation.

So in the NT we read [because it was already stated in ancient texts written before], that Paradise/ the Garden of God -here the Tree of Life is- is in the third heaven".




And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


And Adam was there, in the third heaven, and got cast down in death of spirit, when he became defiled:

Gen 3:24 So he drove out/garash Adam; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

garish:to drive out, expel, cast out, drive away, divorce, put away, thrust away, trouble, cast up

Before Adam was "cast out" of Paradise, he was "taken/laqach" to Paradise

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took/laqach [-to go get, fetch, marry, remove from one place to another....] Adam, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

So there is a marriage going to take place of the Lamb and His bride; and His bride will be "laqach" to Paradise above, from earth below; but the first Man/Adam, was "laqach" to there, and the building up of the spiritual City of God did not happen through him because of the casting out of the Adam as a dead in spirit no longer son of God human being.

Redemption is about being bought back in the New Man name to be what the old man was first created to be and to do.


Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art Adam and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Verse 9 in the Hebrew: you are Adam, and not God/El

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

Who got cast out of Eden? -Adam did, the "one, dead, fallen, prince": Psalm 82:
vs 1:´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים standeth in the congregation of ´ël he judgeth among the ´élöhîm ...

vs 6: I have said, Ye [are] ´élöhîm and all of you ben `Elyôn
But ye shall die/muwth like Adam, 120 and fall like [the] one/echad prince/sar.

vs 7:In Psalm 82, Adam is the one prince who is fallen/naphal, - dead, and cast down and out of Eden.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...

Verse 9 in the Hebrew: you are Adam, and not God/El

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

Who got cast out of Eden? -Adam did, the "one, dead, fallen, prince": Psalm 82:
vs 1:´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים standeth in the congregation of ´ël he judgeth among the ´élöhîm ...

vs 6: I have said, Ye [are] ´élöhîm and all of you ben `Elyôn
But ye shall die/muwth like Adam, 120 and fall like [the] one/echad prince/sar.

vs 7:In Psalm 82, Adam is the one prince who is fallen/naphal, - dead, and cast down and out of Eden.

It is good to build one's belief system on the actual Word of God, from the original language.
Note in Psalm 82 that the warning to the congregation of the elohim -the sons of the Most High God- in charge of the earth as rulers and judges [the Dan, who are the Watchers] -is warning them they are in danger of dying like Adam, and falling like the "one prince" -Adam.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Okay I went back and re-read your thoughts on the matter ... you believe Satan and the being described in Isaiah 14:12, and the King of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28 etc, are the same.

This may sound uneducated, idk ... but from what I can tell, Satan is continually and directly referred to as a serpent/dragon/devil or equated with a serpent/dragon/devil.

I don't see equating the being in Isaiah 14 with Satan/dragon/serpent, or the cherub/King of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28. I know you feel you have said enough on the matter, but if you'd like to say more, I wouldn't mind it being explicitly shown why all three are equal. They seem like three distinct beings to me.

Ok, I don't see 3 beings but 2. I believe the same being is being talked about and prophesied about in both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. It's the same being who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden. It's the same being in Job, and the same being in Revelation called the dragon. It's the same being who tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Jesus refered to him multiple times.

In Ezekiel 28, the King of Tyrus is the metaphoric name the author is giving this being. In Isaiah 14, Lucifer is not written by the original author and is not his name.

Somewhere in eternity, perhaps eons ago, God created the angels, they were all good. I do believe in a hiarchy of angels. Within this hiarchy He created one that was the most beautiful of all, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. He is discribed in Ezekiel 28. At some point this being corrupted himself with pride and sinned. In Isaiah he is sort of nick named "son of the morning", but after his fall he became know as the devil. He turned from being the most beautiful to the most horrendus and became God's number one enemy, the adversary, the accuser. Yes there are many more but he is the number one guy.

The two discriptions in Isaiah and Ezekiel are talking about a leader among the angelic host that has sinned in heaven and is being prophesied that he will be cast out of heaven and thrown to the ground, to earth. Both discriptions show very similarities in judgement upon this being.

One of the things that yeshuasavedme said that I do agree with is that this being you saw that called himself Lucifer probably only named himself this so to create fear in you, because the angel who is the devil was never named Lucifer and no angel ever was.

I know I'm talking in bits and pieces but it's late and I need to get to bed. The guy I work with that I told you about does not have internet but I can ask him to tell me more and relay that info back to you here tomorrow.

 

[TillICollapse]

Ok, I don't see 3 beings but 2. I believe the same being is being talked about and prophesied about in both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. It's the same being who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden. It's the same being in Job, and the same being in Revelation called the dragon. It's the same being who tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Jesus refered to him multiple times.

In Ezekiel 28, the King of Tyrus is the metaphoric name the author is giving this being. In Isaiah 14, Lucifer is not written by the original author and is not his name.

Somewhere in eternity, perhaps eons ago, God created the angels, they were all good. I do believe in a hiarchy of angels. Within this hiarchy He created one that was the most beautiful of all, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. He is discribed in Ezekiel 28. At some point this being corrupted himself with pride and sinned. In Isaiah he is sort of nick named "son of the morning", but after his fall he became know as the devil. He turned from being the most beautiful to the most horrendus and became God's number one enemy, the adversary, the accuser. Yes there are many more but he is the number one guy.

The two discriptions in Isaiah and Ezekiel are talking about a leader among the angelic host that has sinned in heaven and is being prophesied that he will be cast out of heaven and thrown to the ground, to earth. Both discriptions show very similarities in judgement upon this being.

I know I'm talking in bits and pieces but it's late and I need to get to bed. The guy I work with that I told you about does not have internet but I can ask him to tell me more and relay that info back to you here tomorrow.

No worries on relaying info back quickly, take your time, as you are able. I may not even have much time to go online Wed anyway, and starting Fri my weekends are jam packed with little time to read/post.

So let me qualify: I am/was already familiar with the word "Lucifer" not being written by the original author, etc. I was also already familiar with the tradition that Satan was created beautifully within the hierarchy, fell from grace, etc. ... and that Isaiah 14 was often used to further this view, and that he worshipped beautifully with music or something based on Ezekiel 28 (for those who equate this with Satan), etc.

So I originally understood you to mean that the dragon/serpent/Satan was one and the same as the Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 being (all 3 are one in the same). Now you say you are seeing 2 beings ... but it still looks like you are equating Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14, and Dragon/serpent etc.

So assuming I am understanding you, and that you are equating them all as being the same being.

My thing, is that if I toss the tradition aside (and not taking into account origin stories) ... I see where the Dragon/serpent-Garden of Eden/Satan/Devil is one being, but not necessarily those other two. This being gets cast to the earth with other angels, and this specific being (I'll just say Dragon) eventually gets locked up for 1000 years, then released, then goes to the Lake of Fire.

Does the Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 beings ever get referred to in some fashion as getting locked up for 1000 years and then released again ? Getting thrown to the earth ... the Dragon gets thrown to the earth with other angels, so there are multiple beings getting thrown to the earth. Is it possible these passages are referring to some of the various beings that are getting thrown to the earth (the Dragon, a cherub, and the Isaiah 14 being), and not just one and the same being ?

Assuming you will have time to fill in more of the pieces, more definitive evidence as to why those passages are all talking about the same being would be cool.

One of the things that yeshuasavedme said that I do agree with is that this being you saw that called himself Lucifer probably only named himself this so to create fear in you, because the angel who is the devil was never named Lucifer and no angel ever was.

I think the choice of the name is significant and not random or solely based on fear, beyond that I may agree with this ... need more info

 

[Rev Randy]

Aw, man, is this thread going to be about Enoch and angelic genetics, too?

Seems that way. Aw nuts (or lack thereof).
Unsubscribing.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...

I think the choice of the name is significant and not random or solely based on fear, beyond that I may agree with this ... need more info

I do not think that the name you understood was from the devil, himself. You did not mention it named in an evil feeling of his presence, but was said to you by probably your guardian angel so that you could identify what you saw as a Satan....not that Lucifer is Satan or is a proper name, but your own want to identify was granted with that, just as a point of understanding based on your own "traditions received from your fathers".

There is an entire class of satans who are "evil spirits in heaven" created to do what they do, and the Lake of Fire is their kingdom of darkness prepared for the chief Satan and his angels of darkness. That is their kingdom and their eternal home. They will not be tormented, but will be the tormentors forever of those given to them because they believed their lies and acted upon them.


They were never holy and never meant to be holy. They are made to test and try the holy Watchers and the Adam creation. That is their job; and their reward is that they get more food laid up for their eternal feasting on in their kingdom of darkness.

Their food and drink is to torment and afflict the fallen angels, the demons -the spirits of the fallen angels/their offspring, that is- and the unrepentant seed of Adam who got their names blotted out of the Book of Life for unbelief; or for total rejection of the Light that lights every human being when they come into the world; or for seeking that Light and finding Him in the revelation of Christ to them, but then denying Him as God, and as the Light, in Christ, whose blood is the only Way to heaven and eternal Life.

The satans want lots of food stored up, and they have a short time to get as much as they can because once the boundaries of the Lake of Fire are closed, there will be no going in or coming out, forever. -They are the original "Preppers" you see, laying up for that day of eternal blackness of darkness, when there will be no more harvest to gather up for themselves.

The OT is filled with the doctrine of the evil spirits in heaven, which was laid foundationally in the Book of Enoch and which Jesus referred to.

 

[TillICollapse]

I do not think that the name you understood was from the devil, himself. You did not mention it named in an evil feeling of his presence,

Yeah I didn't think I got that name from the enemy, that's why I thought the choosing of that name specifically had significance

but was said to you by probably your guardian angel so that you could identify what you saw as a Satan

Yes perhaps ... the topic of Guardians is perhaps for another thread (although I have a feeling when I say this, you are going to formulate a long post in response to what they are ) ...

....not that Lucifer is Satan or is a proper name, but your own want to identify was granted with that, just as a point of understanding based on your own "traditions received from your fathers".

Well I didn't hold the tradition that Lucifer=Satan. I actually had a simplistic view that the word "Lucifer" as a proper name was a misnomer, and that the reference in Isaiah 14 stood on it's own and may not have equated to anything other than itself. I mean, I'm familiar with the tradition, I just didn't hold to it one way or another and until I had further revelation on it, I left it "as-is". This is one reason I was a little blown away by the name, and since I didn't believe I got the name from a wayward spirit, I assume it had significance. I keep relating it to "shining", and perhaps an anti-christ type of spirit.

There is an entire class of satans who are "evil spirits in heaven" created to do what they do, and the Lake of Fire is their kingdom of darkness prepared for the chief Satan and his angels of darkness. That is their kingdom and their eternal home. They will not be tormented, but will be the tormentors forever of those given to them because they believed their lies and acted upon them.


They were never holy and never meant to be holy. They are made to test and try the holy Watchers and the Adam creation. That is their job; and their reward is that they get more food laid up for their eternal feasting on in their kingdom of darkness.

Their food and drink is to torment and afflict the fallen angels, the demons -the spirits of the fallen angels/their offspring, that is- and the unrepentant seed of Adam who got their names blotted out of the Book of Life for unbelief; or for total rejection of the Light that lights every human being when they come into the world; or for seeking that Light and finding Him in the revelation of Christ to them, but then denying Him as God, and as the Light, in Christ, whose blood is the only Way to heaven and eternal Life.

The satans want lots of food stored up, and they have a short time to get as much as they can because once the boundaries of the Lake of Fire are closed, there will be no going in or coming out, forever. -They are the original "Preppers" you see, laying up for that day of eternal blackness of darkness, when there will be no more harvest to gather up for themselves.

The OT is filled with the doctrine of the evil spirits in heaven, which was laid foundationally in the Book of Enoch and which Jesus referred to.

I'm aware that, when read a certain way, the OT seems to come alive with references to specifics concerning fallen spirits (beyond the obvious ones, and the most debatable ones of course), etc (like in Job). There have been more than a few times such references have been extremely helpful to me in something I'm dealing with, etc. So when someone like you is saying a lot of these things ... I try not to throw out the baby with the bath water ...

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Y
I'm aware that, when read a certain way, the OT seems to come alive with references to specifics concerning fallen spirits (beyond the obvious ones, and the most debatable ones of course), etc (like in Job). There have been more than a few times such references have been extremely helpful to me in something I'm dealing with, etc. So when someone like you is saying a lot of these things ... I try not to throw out the baby with the bath water ...

But they are never fallen spirits!
The angels who fell are chained. Their offspring are demons and were never holy.
Satan was never a holy angel, and is the Evil Spirit in heaven, and is the chief of a host of evil spirits/angels called the Satans.

The Satans are are called Accuser; Slanderer; evil spirit; satan. The chief Mastema in Jubilees is the "chief of the satans", with the stema being plural rendering -so I have read from Jewish sources.

In Job, a Satan, an Accuser, visited Job's friend, Eliphaz, in the night -seems like Eliphaz received the accusation of Satan and turned it on Job, too.

The account below is of a Satan accusing Job and men -and angels that fell.

Job 4
12 “Now a word was secretly brought to me,
And my ear received a whisper of it.
13 In disquieting thoughts from the visions of the night,
When deep sleep falls on men,
14 Fear came upon me, and trembling,
Which made all my bones shake.
15 Then a spirit passed before my face;
The hair on my body stood up.
16 It stood still,
But I could not discern its appearance.
A form was before my eyes;
There was silence;
Then I heard a voice saying:
17 ‘Can a mortal be more righteous than God?
Can a man be more pure than his Maker?
18 If He puts no trust in His servants,
If He charges His angels with error,
19 How much more those who dwell in houses of clay,
Whose foundation is in the dust,
Who are crushed before a moth?
...

An evil spirit sent from God made King Saul Bi-Polar, after his "rebellion -which was as witchcraft".
1Sa 16:14 ¶But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.


1 Kings 22:
the Satans come before God in heaven:


19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.



a belial spirit is an evil spirit, but it may be referring to a demon, and not a Satan...


The angel of destruction sent to kill the firstborn in Egypt was a Satan, doing the job of cursing Egypt that God sent him to do.

God sent satans which are "evil angels" -and never were holy- to destroy Egypt:
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

in 1 Kings 22, the lying spirit in the mouth of the false prophets before Ahab is a Satan, who is in heaven:

1 Kings 22:
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

 

[TillICollapse]

But they are never fallen spirits!
The angels who fell are chained. Their offspring are demons and were never holy.
Satan was never a holy angel, and is the Evil Spirit in heaven, and is the chief of a host of evil spirits/angels called the Satans.

The Satans are are called Accuser; Slanderer; evil spirit; satan. The chief Mastema in Jubilees is the "chief of the satans", with the stema being plural rendering -so I have read from Jewish sources.

In Job, a Satan, an Accuser, visited Job's friend, Eliphaz, in the night -seems like Eliphaz received the accusation of Satan and turned it on Job, too.

The account below is of a Satan accusing Job and men -and angels that fell.
An evil spirit sent from God made King Saul Bi-Polar, after his "rebellion -which was as witchcraft".
1Sa 16:14 ¶But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.



a belial spirit is an evil spirit, but it may be referring to a demon, and not a Satan...


The angel of destruction sent to kill the firstborn in Egypt was a Satan, doing the job of cursing Egypt that God sent him to do.

God sent satans which are "evil angels" -and never were holy- to destroy Egypt:
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

I should clarify that I use the word fallen and evil and wayward almost interchangeably (which is lazy of me, but I try to change it based on the meanings someone else may give a word when they are speaking), thus I don't always mean "fallen" in a literal sense. And I'm well aware of the Gen 6 fall, fallen being chained, offspring being Nephilim, disembodied Nephilim are the demon spirits, etc. So you don't have to keep repeating yourself there

However ... in response to what you are saying ... and I am not saying anything about timing here yet whatsoever, I am merely pointing out the scriptures .... Rev 12:7-12. The Dragon and His angels are cast down to the earth, and are no longer allowed into heaven, after the War in Heaven.

Now, based on what you say, I'm assuming you do not think this has happened yet (casting down of the Dragon and his angels), or is happening ? That the Dragon and his angels are still in heaven ? Or is this me misunderstanding what you are saying about the satans/etc ?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I should clarify that I use the word fallen and evil and wayward almost interchangeably (which is lazy of me, but I try to change it based on the meanings someone else may give a word when they are speaking), thus I don't always mean "fallen" in a literal sense. And I'm well aware of the Gen 6 fall, fallen being chained, offspring being Nephilim, disembodied Nephilim are the demon spirits, etc. So you don't have to keep repeating yourself there

However ... in response to what you are saying ... and I am not saying anything about timing here yet whatsoever, I am merely pointing out the scriptures .... Rev 12:7-12. The Dragon and His angels are cast down to the earth, and are no longer allowed into heaven, after the War in Heaven.

Now, based on what you say, I'm assuming you do not think this has happened yet (casting down of the Dragon and his angels), or is happening ? That the Dragon and his angels are still in heaven ? Or is this me misunderstanding what you are saying about the satans/etc ?

Yes, the Devil/Dragon and his unholy angels which are the evil spirits and the accusers in heaven, have not been cast out of heaven to earth.
When that happens, they work furiously because they have so little time to "lay up stores" for their eternal kingdom "food supply" -being the persons in Adam who believe their lies and act on them.

In Enoch we learn that the tormenters food and drink is to torment....torture is food to a demon and a Satan, but we also learn that the demons themselves will be tormented by the Satans in the Lake of fire, which is why the "legion of them" said to the LORD Jesus; "Are you come to torment us before the time..." -meaning" to cast us into the Lake of Fire before the appointed season". The appointment is a revelation given by God to Enoch, so as to write for their fathers, the fallen angels, and for them, the offspring of those ones, to read it. It is their doom

 

[TillICollapse]

Yes, the Devil/Dragon and his unholy angels which are the evil spirits and the accusers in heaven, have not been cast out of heaven to earth.
When that happens, they work furiously because they have so little time to "lay up stores" for their eternal kingdom "food supply" -being the persons in Adam who believe their lies and act on them.

If they have not been cast out of heaven to earth ... then what was the nature of the lightening-like flash I saw do you think ? I don't think that was the "Lucifer" itself per se ... so what was the nature of the flash specifically ? And why did I see "Michael" in regards to it do you think ?

 

[squint]

Yes, the Devil/Dragon and his unholy angels which are the evil spirits and the accusers in heaven, have not been cast out of heaven to earth.

yeah, the classic devil in heaven scenario as so espoused by Mr. Murray.

Fortunately the majority of believers don't buy that story.

When that happens, they work furiously because they have so little time to "lay up stores" for their eternal kingdom "food supply" -being the persons in Adam who believe their lies and act on them.

I've never asked a Murry disciple if they believe we'll see Satan and demons walking around on earth in some physical form after the so called 'casting out.' Do you believe that?

I have heard zeke here, a Murry disciple, say that satan supposedly goes back and forth from heaven currently but not in his full 'form and power.'

?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If they have not been cast out of heaven to earth ... then what was the nature of the lightening-like flash I saw do you think ? I don't think that was the "Lucifer" itself per se ... so what was the nature of the flash specifically ?
And why did I see "Michael" in regards to it do you think ?

You raise some interesting points......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7472380-12/
Has the Accuser been cast down yet? [poll thread]

Luke 10:18
And He said to them "I beheld the Satan, as a star-flash/lightening/astraphn <796> out of the heaven falling/pesonta <4098> (5631) ".

Revelation 9:1
And the fifth messenger trumpets and I saw a Star/astera <792> out of the heaven having fallen/peptwkota <4098> (5761) into the land
and was given to him the key of the well of the abyss,
[Luke 10:18]

View Poll Results: Has the accuser been cast down yet?

I/my church believe he was

16 47.06%

I/my church believe that is still yet future

10 29.41%

I don't know

4 11.76%

Other

4 11.76%



.

 

[TillICollapse]

You raise some interesting points......

Hopefully lol

http://www.christianforums.com/t7472380-12/
Has the Accuser been cast down yet? [poll thread]

Luke 10:18
And He said to them "I beheld the Satan, as a star-flash/lightening/astraphn <796> out of the heaven falling/pesonta <4098> (5631) ".

Revelation 9:1
And the fifth messenger trumpets and I saw a Star/astera <792> out of the heaven having fallen/peptwkota <4098> (5761) into the land
and was given to him the key of the well of the abyss,
[Luke 10:18]

View Poll Results: Has the accuser been cast down yet?

I/my church believe he was

16 47.06%

I/my church believe that is still yet future

10 29.41%

I don't know

4 11.76%

Other

4 11.76%



.

Like a sucker with something placed in front of him, I voted lol

This is one reason why I like scrutinizing eye-witness, practical evidence accounts. Sometimes I believe they help to answer debatable topics more definitively ... or if not, they may help to at least build a better picture of the puzzle pieces.

I honestly don't believe I have a definitive revelation (that I understand as such) on the nature of the timing of the War in Heaven between Michael and his angels, and the Dragon and his angels, and what it necessarily implies about their locations at this very moment, etc. I believe what Jesus said, about what He saw when Satan fell ... however I don't know necessarily what that says about the rest of the angels, and or beings, that will be cast to the earth. There are things being cast to earth, falling to earth, apart from just Satan (as the verses you quote point out and may imply). Is the War something that takes place over time, for example ? First Satan, then an angel here and there over decades ?

I could shape the pieces of my own account to theorize that I witnessed, literally, one of these angels being cast to the earth from Michael and his angels. Another theory could be that I saw the arrival or manifesting of an entity already cast out at some other point in time, and Michael was there to help encourage me in my conflict with such an entity that was already on earth. Or perhaps it all equals something else ... a little bit of this, a little bit of that ...

 

[squint]

Hopefully lol

Like a sucker with something placed in front of him, I voted lol

This is one reason why I like scrutinizing eye-witness, practical evidence accounts. Sometimes I believe they help to answer debatable topics more definitively ... or if not, they may help to at least build a better picture of the puzzle pieces.

I honestly don't believe I have a definitive revelation (that I understand as such) on the nature of the timing of the War in Heaven between Michael and his angels, and the Dragon and his angels, and what it necessarily implies about their locations at this very moment, etc. I believe what Jesus said, about what He saw when Satan fell ... however I don't know necessarily what that says about the rest of the angels, and or beings, that will be cast to the earth. There are things being cast to earth, falling to earth, apart from just Satan (as the verses you quote point out and may imply). Is the War something that takes place over time, for example ? First Satan, then an angel here and there over decades ?

I could shape the pieces of my own account to theorize that I witnessed, literally, one of these angels being cast to the earth from Michael and his angels. Another theory could be that I saw the arrival or manifesting of an entity already cast out at some other point in time, and Michael was there to help encourage me in my conflict with such an entity that was already on earth. Or perhaps it all equals something else ... a little bit of this, a little bit of that ...

Ah, now it gets interesting. What did you SEE? (if you've already posted it just point me to the post # and or thread and #) I kinda lost interest on this thread after the first couple pages.)

 

[TillICollapse]

Ah, now it gets interesting. What did you SEE? (if you've already posted it just point me to the post # and or thread and #) I kinda lost interest on this thread after the first couple pages.)

No worries, I do the same thing when I lose interest.

It took up quite a bit of text, two large posts:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7783690-7/#post64693569

I tried to be specific, and show the details of what I actually saw (physically), verses what I claim I saw in vision (spiritually), verses what I thought some of it all meant (conviction/opinion/etc). So there is some chunky physical evidence as well as what some might perceive to be debatable fluff I tried to cut to the chase, while still including important details which provide context. Read all the way through if you like, to see what I mean.

 

[squint]

No worries, I do the same thing when I lose interest.

It took up quite a bit of text, two large posts:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7783690-7/#post64693569

I tried to be specific, and show the details of what I actually saw (physically), verses what I claim I saw in vision (spiritually), verses what I thought some of it all meant (conviction/opinion/etc). So there is some chunky physical evidence as well as what some might perceive to be debatable fluff I tried to cut to the chase, while still including important details which provide context. Read all the way through if you like, to see what I mean.

Interesting. Don't know what to say about the first encounter with Mike.

I do know that the brain does contain small amounts of DMT and that it can be sometimes let loose into our system and create very strange things. Some people speculate this as the source of death bed/tunnel of light/NDE experiences.

And hypnosis can be interesting territory as well. People can and do induce themselves into a hypnotic state.

They can also experience 'sleep paralysis' and other forms of seeming immobilization.

I would filter every experience through the most obvious channels first before I chalked up anything to spiritual or anti-spiritual intents or notions.

The brain can be a very sensitive matter. I have a daughter in law for example that has to be cautious when encountering strobe light conditions as they can induce some people into seizures/convulsions.

s

 

[TillICollapse]

Interesting. Don't know what to say about the first encounter with Mike.

I do know that the brain does contain small amounts of DMT and that it can be sometimes let loose into our system and create very strange things. Some people speculate this as the source of death bed/tunnel of light/NDE experiences.

And hypnosis can be interesting territory as well. People can and do induce themselves into a hypnotic state.

They can also experience 'sleep paralysis' and other forms of seeming immobilization.

I would filter every experience through the most obvious channels first before I chalked up anything to spiritual or anti-spiritual intents or notions.

The brain can be a very sensitive matter. I have a daughter in law for example that has to be cautious when encountering strobe light conditions as they can induce some people into seizures/convulsions.

s

Yes I understand using these types of Occam's Razor filters ... and I'm not opposed to them. I'm a fan of skeptical thinking and looking at something from multiple angles, etc. My father was an atheist growing up, and taught me critical thinking ... plus I've been in the medical field, yada yada.

I'm not saying I no longer do just that when experiences like this happen (use such filters) ... HOWEVER ... I have had several experiences before the ones I just described, where I *did* put them through the scrutiny ringer, and they became self evident that there was more going on than mistaking a spiritual experience for "just" a biological one. I have some dramatic "litmus test" types of experiences which are, for the lack of a better word, undeniable. I dare say proof, but I won't say proof. Multiple witnesses, over time, no ambiguity. So I have a sort of measuring stick I can pull out for myself, and it's enough of one that when some of these things do happen ... if they aren't self evident and resolved to the degree where there is no ambiguity ... I am still not quick to dismiss it.

But of course, if so inclined, one interpretation of all that I stated could be the Occam's Razor's ones ... coincidences, wishful thinking, hypnogogic states, biochemical physiological reactions, ascribing meaning when there is none, etc.

 

[squint]

Yes I understand using these types of Occam's Razor filters ... and I'm not opposed to them. I'm a fan of skeptical thinking and looking at something from multiple angles, etc. My father was an atheist growing up, and taught me critical thinking ... plus I've been in the medical field, yada yada.

I'm not saying I no longer do just that when experiences like this happen (use such filters) ... HOWEVER ... I have had several experiences before the ones I just described, where I *did* put them through the ringer, and they became self evident that there was more going on than mistaking a spiritual experience for "just" a biological one. I have some dramatic "litmus test" types of experiences which are, for the lack of a better word, undeniable. I dare say proof, but I won't say proof. Multiple witnesses, over time, no ambiguity. So I have a sort of measuring stick I can pull out for myself.

But of course, if so inclined, one interpretation of all that I stated could be the Occam's Razor's ones ... coincidences, wishful thinking, hypnogogic states, biochemical physiological reactions, ascribing meaning when there is none, etc.

If a person wants to run any such experiences through textual/scriptural engagements, that depends entirely on the bias of their impositions.

I do feel quite secure in the statement that no demonic entities have sex with human women and have half breed human devils. There are a boatload of teachings/teachers who say otherwise.

s

 

[nephilimiyr]

No worries on relaying info back quickly, take your time, as you are able. I may not even have much time to go online Wed anyway, and starting Fri my weekends are jam packed with little time to read/post.

So let me qualify: I am/was already familiar with the word "Lucifer" not being written by the original author, etc. I was also already familiar with the tradition that Satan was created beautifully within the hierarchy, fell from grace, etc. ... and that Isaiah 14 was often used to further this view, and that he worshipped beautifully with music or something based on Ezekiel 28 (for those who equate this with Satan), etc.

I understand, and I hope you do too, this is a very busy time of year, especially this coming week. And a big thank you for writting that out about Satan, I know now that you atleast know where I'm coming from because what you said there is what I believe.

So I originally understood you to mean that the dragon/serpent/Satan was one and the same as the Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 being (all 3 are one in the same). Now you say you are seeing 2 beings ... but it still looks like you are equating Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14, and Dragon/serpent etc.

So assuming I am understanding you, and that you are equating them all as being the same being.

I'm very sorry for causing this confusion but I didn't state what I wrote properly. It's my fault, I was over tired and unsure if I wanted to continue with this discussion or not. No, I do not see 2 beings but 2 different accounts of the same being in the Isaiah and Eze. passages. To your credit, you are correct in assuming I am equating them all as the same being/angel, including all the other passages/books you and I have referenced.

My thing, is that if I toss the tradition aside (and not taking into account origin stories) ... I see where the Dragon/serpent-Garden of Eden/Satan/Devil is one being, but not necessarily those other two. This being gets cast to the earth with other angels, and this specific being (I'll just say Dragon) eventually gets locked up for 1000 years, then released, then goes to the Lake of Fire.

I sorta agree with this. Those other two accounts in Isaiah and Eze. are the same being that is discribed as the Dragon/serpent/Satan/Devil. Otherwise, what you wrote here I agree with.

Does the Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 beings ever get referred to in some fashion as getting locked up for 1000 years and then released again ? Getting thrown to the earth ... the Dragon gets thrown to the earth with other angels, so there are multiple beings getting thrown to the earth. Is it possible these passages are referring to some of the various beings that are getting thrown to the earth (the Dragon, a cherub, and the Isaiah 14 being), and not just one and the same being ?

Again, I'm sorry for creating this confusion but they are all different accounts of the same being, he is the leader of the angelic host that has made themselves the enemy of God, he is also the leader of the demons.

Assuming you will have time to fill in more of the pieces, more definitive evidence as to why those passages are all talking about the same being would be cool.

I think the choice of the name is significant and not random or solely based on fear, beyond that I may agree with this ... need more info

I have all of next week off for Christmas so I will have plenty of time then to put together a post that you are looking for.

As to the being you saw that named himself Lucifer, you may be right and I may be wrong, the thing both you and I have to ask is what were you doing to warrant the leader of the fallen host, which may number into the billions, to want to show himself to you?

Here is where I have to talk about this guy I work with that I was telling you about yesterday. He told me about his experiences a year ago so I didn't remember everything he said to me. I did talk to him today about it and here is what he said. He never saw a complete angel but only saw his eyes. They were glowing red and he felt a complete sense of evil and hatred. He knew what to do right away and rebuked it and it disapeared. He first saw this when he was on the streets of Detroit witnessing and praying with the people there. But last year he saw this again, two red eyes in front of him that were staring at him, again he rebuked it and it left.

He talked about this with his pastor, and here is where you'll find this interesting, his pastor told him that the Holy Spirit allowed him to see this manifestation to show him what he is up against and that they are real. His pastor told him that it wasn't the power of the demon but the power of God that made this manifestation happen. That's maybe something you might want to consider about your experiences also.

One last thing, while he was in Detroit, he came into contact with a man and was in his home, the man was about to kill his wife with a knife. My friend said that this man was possessed by a demon and he stopped him, rebuked it, prayed over the man, and cast out the demon. The man was at first very friendly and then in a moments time totally changed into somekind of wild man and, well, I don't remember all the details but it was similar to being right out of the Exercist movie. The guy just totally freaked out.

But just so that you know, you have to realize that we are at work and don't have alot of time to sit around and talk so everything he told me was basic stuff.