What's the difference between Satan and Lucifer?

[GenemZ]

Title says it all JACK.

Lucifer was what he had been originally created for. He was a light bearer angel. The one who used to herald in the mornings in the previous creation. His ability to bear light has been stripped of him by the Lord since his fall. The Bible indicates that there were also other angels who were light bearers. These were called "morning stars."

Job 38:5-7


Who set its (the earth) measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
“On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?


​

The light bearing angels each had an integral function involving the daily functions in the last creation. No longer are angels to be bearers of light. For, God replaced their functions in this creation with the sun, moon, and stars. Therefore, Satan is his new name. Lucifer was his old name. Like the Lord changed the name Saul, to Paul.



Satan is not a name as much as it is his descriptive title.. Satan means, "Accuser" as with an accusing attorney. That is the title Lucifer earned after he fell. He accused God of being unfair and unjust and appealed his case condemning him to the Lake of Fire. God honored his request for the sake of the elect angels. For in their innocence, the elect angels were confused about the condemnation of Lucifer whom they had dearly loved. Lucifer was greatly loved by the angels. So much so, that one third of the angels preferred Lucifer over the Lord.

 

[nephilimiyr]

No worries on relaying info back quickly, take your time, as you are able. I may not even have much time to go online Wed anyway, and starting Fri my weekends are jam packed with little time to read/post.

So let me qualify: I am/was already familiar with the word "Lucifer" not being written by the original author, etc. I was also already familiar with the tradition that Satan was created beautifully within the hierarchy, fell from grace, etc. ... and that Isaiah 14 was often used to further this view, and that he worshipped beautifully with music or something based on Ezekiel 28 (for those who equate this with Satan), etc.

So I originally understood you to mean that the dragon/serpent/Satan was one and the same as the Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 being (all 3 are one in the same). Now you say you are seeing 2 beings ... but it still looks like you are equating Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14, and Dragon/serpent etc.

So assuming I am understanding you, and that you are equating them all as being the same being.

My thing, is that if I toss the tradition aside (and not taking into account origin stories) ... I see where the Dragon/serpent-Garden of Eden/Satan/Devil is one being, but not necessarily those other two. This being gets cast to the earth with other angels, and this specific being (I'll just say Dragon) eventually gets locked up for 1000 years, then released, then goes to the Lake of Fire.

Does the Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 beings ever get referred to in some fashion as getting locked up for 1000 years and then released again ? Getting thrown to the earth ... the Dragon gets thrown to the earth with other angels, so there are multiple beings getting thrown to the earth. Is it possible these passages are referring to some of the various beings that are getting thrown to the earth (the Dragon, a cherub, and the Isaiah 14 being), and not just one and the same being ?

Assuming you will have time to fill in more of the pieces, more definitive evidence as to why those passages are all talking about the same being would be cool.

I think the choice of the name is significant and not random or solely based on fear, beyond that I may agree with this ... need more info

Ok, here's alittle more info for yah.

You mentioned that you see where the Dragon, Serpent, Devil and Satan are all the same being, I agree. The way to see more clearly that the angelic being in Isa 14 and Eze. 28 is the same being is not to compare the two stories together but to link both of them to other passages that are talking about the Dragon, Serpent, Devil or Satan.

Lets start with Isaiah 14.
Isaiah 14:12-17, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, In the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the most high.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake the kingdoms.

Parallel verse:
Revelation 12:7-8, And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

In the Isa. passages you see this Lucifer being someone who is a leader. He is the one who made the earth to tremble, this is not about him causeing literal earthquakes. He is also the one who is said to have shaken the kingdoms. This is in reference to all the kingdoms of the world. This one angel is certainly a leader among leaders. Now look at the Revelation passage. This dragon is a leader among the main army of angels that are against God and his angels. The dragon is the main leader, and so is Lucifer. Both of these leaders are brought down out of heaven and will meet the same end. The two are one in the same.

In the Ezekiel 28:12-17 passages we see that this cherub has a king like robe or somekind of covering filled with all kind of bright and beautiful jewels and he is very proud. These facts all fit in with the Genesis 3 account where both the serpent and this cherub are referenced as having been there. "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God". Notice that the passage says "in", this is important because no other angel was ever referenced as being in Eden. In the Genesis 3 account, cherubims are put in charge of guarding the garden after Adam and Eve were kicked out, but these cherubs were placed at the gates of the garden to the east, not in the garden. So we have both the serpent and this cherub as having been in the garden. The two are the same.

 

[GenemZ]

In the Ezekiel 28:12-17 passages we see that this cherub has a king like robe or somekind of covering filled with all kind of bright and beautiful jewels and he is very proud. These facts all fit in with the Genesis 3 account where both the serpent and this cherub are referenced as having been there. "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God". Notice that the passage says "in", this is important because no other angel was ever referenced as being in Eden. In the Genesis 3 account, cherubims are put in charge of guarding the garden after Adam and Eve were kicked out, but these cherubs were placed at the gates of the garden to the east, not in the garden. So we have both the serpent and this cherub as having been in the garden. The two are the same.

Verse 17 offers insight into Satan's prehistoric designed function.. And, this is why he was tagged "Lucifer" by certain translators. Lucifer means "light bearer."

Ezekiel 28:17
Young's Literal Translation
​

High hath been thy heart, because of thy beauty, Thou hast corrupted thy wisdom because of thy brightness, On the earth I have cast thee, Before kings I have set thee, to look on thee.
​

The Hebrew can be translated with wording with a much stronger impact. Lucifer became arrogant because of his wisdom and "dazzling brilliance." I If you are curious, I can locate that translation for you. I am not near my small library at the moment.
Lucifer had a dazzling brilliance because he was the one by God's design to herald in the mornings in the previous creation before the sun was provided for this creation.

Isaiah 14:12.. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

​

Other angels in the book of Job were called "morning stars." In the previous creation certain angels had an active part in the lighting activities of the prehistoric worlds. They were the light providers for various things, just like we have a sun, moon, and stars.

After Lucifer fell he and his angels were denied by God their original design function. They no longer are able to materialize in the physical world, yet God's elect angels remain able to. The light of Satan is now called "darkness" in the Bible.


Grace and peace...

 

[TillICollapse]

Ok, here's alittle more info for yah.

You mentioned that you see where the Dragon, Serpent, Devil and Satan are all the same being, I agree. The way to see more clearly that the angelic being in Isa 14 and Eze. 28 is the same being is not to compare the two stories together but to link both of them to other passages that are talking about the Dragon, Serpent, Devil or Satan.

Lets start with Isaiah 14.
Isaiah 14:12-17, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, In the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the most high.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake the kingdoms.

Parallel verse:
Revelation 12:7-8, And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

In the Isa. passages you see this Lucifer being someone who is a leader. He is the one who made the earth to tremble, this is not about him causeing literal earthquakes. He is also the one who is said to have shaken the kingdoms. This is in reference to all the kingdoms of the world. This one angel is certainly a leader among leaders. Now look at the Revelation passage. This dragon is a leader among the main army of angels that are against God and his angels. The dragon is the main leader, and so is Lucifer. Both of these leaders are brought down out of heaven and will meet the same end. The two are one in the same.

In the Ezekiel 28:12-17 passages we see that this cherub has a king like robe or somekind of covering filled with all kind of bright and beautiful jewels and he is very proud. These facts all fit in with the Genesis 3 account where both the serpent and this cherub are referenced as having been there. "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God". Notice that the passage says "in", this is important because no other angel was ever referenced as being in Eden. In the Genesis 3 account, cherubims are put in charge of guarding the garden after Adam and Eve were kicked out, but these cherubs were placed at the gates of the garden to the east, not in the garden. So we have both the serpent and this cherub as having been in the garden. The two are the same.

Okay thanks for some more info

When I compare Isaiah 14 and Revelation 12, I still do not see how they conclusively point to one and the same being. I see similarities, I’m not blind lol … “Lucifer” is fallen from heaven, cut down to the ground, then brought down to the sides of the pit where people look upon him and make comments, etc. The Dragon is cast out of heaven, to the ground, then eventually is put into the pit to be chained for 1000 years. So I see similarities … however there is more than just the Dragon who gets cast down to the earth. It is also those angels who followed him. How do you know this isn’t just another angel ? A specific one that was very powerful ? Again, I can see the parallels lol … but how do you know Isaiah 14 is specifically talking about the dragon and not another being in power with him ?

Concerning Ezekiel, I think it rests on the assumption that the lack of Genesis mentioning by name a lot of different beings that could have been in Eden, or come and gone through it, means that the serpent and cherub are one and the same since this cherub was in Eden and had issues as well. But where is a cherub ever described as a dragon/serpent/snake ? In Eden, the serpent is actually claimed to be craftier than any of the wild animals that God had made. Is a cherub a wild animal ? I know they are at one point described as having animal faces, but snakes/serpents don’t appear to be one of them. Does “Lucifer” appear to be a wild animal ?

And the serpent is cursed after what happened in the Garden. He deceived Adam and Eve, and then is cursed above all livestock and wild animals. How does this parallel the cherub and/or “Lucifer” ?

I can see why someone would make the connections, but I don’t see where they are *definitive*. I personally have not made up my mind yet concretely … and I thank you for typing this out. Do you have more than those passages however ? If so, let er rip. And I hope you don’t take it personally that I pick it apart … that is how I often dig when examining things

 

[Giantbear]

I did a post previously about Isaiah 14 chapter and no one seemed interested to discuss matters except one particular individual.

Remember that lucifer became Satan when he became cursed by God. This happened at the Garden of Eden and as a person has been known as the false accuser of faithful brethren. He falsely accused Job in which he claimed that he liked God only because he had blessed his house and provided abundantly.

Satan is also known as the King of this world. Remember that Satan tempted Jesus that he would give him all the kingdoms of the world if he knelt down and worshipped him.

Satan according to Isaiah chapter 14 was cast down to the side of the Pitt. In Revelation of John he is called the Beast of the Bottomless Pitt who emerges at the end of age to martyre Christ's true church (none denominational body of believers).

Satan is a person a fallen angel who was portrayed as the right hand of the Living Word, the Angel of the Lord's presence who is the chief of all the Angels, before he came as the Jesus of Nazereth in the incarnation process to invite the human family to his heavenly angelic family.

Basically with many angels that had fallen their places in heaven became vacant and so Christ filled them with the resurrected Adam One family.

The great controversy between the chief Angel Christ and Lucifer started when Satan wanted to be glorified like his boss. This off course could never happen because Satan was a created being and the Angel of The Lord Christ Jesus was The Almighty God manifest in the created realm as the Emmanuel (God is with us). So the Angel of The Lord in John's Revelation is the risen Christ who has one foot on the earth, meaning creation because he is the creator and the other foot on the sea because he created all life and in his right hand the trumpet of God and when he as the seventh angel blows that seventh trumpet, that is when he declares time no longer.

There is a hidden agenda to confuse the lines between Lucifer and Satan, as this is the first step to deny his existence as a unique person. So the saying goes by denying that satan is a real person, his identity is kept secret and his deeds go unnoticed without blame.

Let me reiterate to all that Satan according to isaiah chapter 14 is the incarnated seventh king of John's Revelation who comes on the scene as the universal messiah to decieve the masses and receive worship.

Notice that the abomination that maketh desolate in Daniel's prophesy comes after the time, time and half a time or 1290 symbolic days after the final persecution of the Christian that will dwarf the inquisitions. Then after the opposition is removed then Satan who comes as the abomination that maketh desolate, the mother of all idols to be worshipped as God on earth.

To deny that satan is a real person is to make a good cover for him to come into this world as the universal messiah. The counterfeit interfaith ecumenical movement is setup for receiving this new age universal messiah.

 

[GenemZ]

Okay thanks for some more info

When I compare Isaiah 14 and Revelation 12, I still do not see how they conclusively point to one and the same being. I see similarities, I’m not blind lol … “Lucifer” is fallen from heaven, cut down to the ground, then brought down to the sides of the pit where people look upon him and make comments, etc. The Dragon is cast out of heaven, to the ground, then eventually is put into the pit to be chained for 1000 years.

That speaks of different phases Satan went through, or will be going through,in the process of his judgment and condemnation.

So I see similarities … however there is more than just the Dragon who gets cast down to the earth. It is also those angels who followed him. How do you know this isn’t just another angel ?

Does the Bible mention any other angel that is the prince of this world? Does the Bible mention any other angel who has access to heaven both day and night, to accuse the believers before God? When Satan will be cast down, it will be the time God will no longer allow for any more accusations by Satan for entering heaven to accuse us before God.

A specific one that was very powerful ? Again, I can see the parallels lol … but how do you know Isaiah 14 is specifically talking about the dragon and not another being in power with him ?

Concerning Ezekiel, I think it rests on the assumption that the lack of Genesis mentioning by name a lot of different beings that could have been in Eden, or come and gone through it, means that the serpent and cherub are one and the same since this cherub was in Eden and had issues as well.

Just as there was a pre-historic earth ... there existed a pre-historic Eden. We are the Johnny come lately's in God's creations. If you do not understand the Old Earth creation you will be forever confused about what the Bible states about Satan at certain times.

But where is a cherub ever described as a dragon/serpent/snake ?

Well ... things get changed for a creature after it falls. Just look at the serpent in the Garden before the fall. It had legs! There were no thorns and thistles on earth before the fall. Things get changed after a fall takes place.

This is what I believe..

God calls Lucifer the dragon because Satan goes about the earth looking for those whom he can devour. In the previous creation, most likely a creature like T-Rex was created by God in order to show Lucifer and the angels what type of mental attitude Satan manifested since his fall. His nickname probably was tagged the Dragon for that reason. I can see God creating a T-Rex and telling Satan... "Watch this one! He does to others what you have in your heart towards my own in the Kingdom!" So, Satan got tagged with the nick name,..."The Dragon." Just like God changed Saul (which means great) to Paul (which means small) after Paul's conversion. The Bible is filled with name changes like that.

Its just like when Jesus called Herod " that Fox." In that manner,God created certain animals to act as living metaphors to illustrate the mentality of a certain kind of person, or angel. "Stubborn as a mule," etc. "Wise as an owl.."

 

[Giantbear]

The Angels of the chief Angel Michael were known as the sons of God. When in the Isaiah verse below Lucifer aka satan was described as the son of the morning.

Now the morning star is Christ, the living word, the Angel of God's presence, therefore the chief Angel Christ Jesus was father to all the angelic hosts including lucifer, until off course he was cast out of that family for good.

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Daniel puts it plainly as follows:

Daniel 12:1-3
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Clearly the chief Angel Michael is declared as THE GREAT PRINCE. now the definite article THE specifies only one of his kind as the preeminent Holy One.

This is clearly conveyed by the following scripture in Saint Paul's testimony of the risen Christ:

Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

Obviously to which of the angels is this title bestowed is to the definite article THE GREAT PRINCE. The chief Angel Michael, before his incarnation as the Jesus of Nazereth.

Notice the Daniel 12:1-3 versus place THE GREAT PRINCE, Michael as the deliverer / saviour of the human family (thy people) and is instrumental in redeeming those who are written in the book of life described in the versus, from tribulation to resurrection as the angelic white cloud (hosts of heaven), depicted as the righteousness as the stars (angels) for ever and ever.

Michael the great chief prince came as the incarnated Jesus of Nazereth to invite us into his angelic family so that we can be called SONS OF GOD or SONS OF THE MORNING.

 

[GenemZ]

The Angels of the chief Angel Michael were known as the sons of God. When in the Isaiah verse below Lucifer aka satan was described as the son of the morning.

In the Kingdom of angels there were originally two types created.

Job 38:6-7

On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


​

Now the morning star is Christ, the living word, the Angel of God's presence,

May I ask? Are you Mormon? Jesus is not an angel. He appeared at times in the OT being manifested as The Angel of Jehovah. But, that ceased since the Incarnation when the Lord became as a man.

therefore the chief Angel Christ Jesus was father to all the angelic hosts including lucifer, until off course he was cast out of that family for good.

Where are you getting that teaching from? Jesus Christ is the New Adam. Man! Man and God in union = the One Lord over all creation.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I did a post previously about Isaiah 14 chapter and no one seemed interested to discuss matters except one particular individual.
.

Satan was never a created holy angel by any Scripture in the Word of God, anywhere.

The cherubim are not serpents, no part of them is a serpent or a dragon.
Cherubim have four faces.

Cherubim have one lion face
Cherubim have one eagle face
Cherubim have one Adam face
Cherubim have one Ox face.

The Ox face is the Cherub face.

Cherubim have four wings each.
Cherubim have Adam hands under their wings.
Cherubim have Calf hooves for feet.
Cherubim have calf legs.

Whoever invented the fable that Satan is a fallen angel, and then tried to make him -to boot- a fallen Cherub, is a false teacher, and a maker of fables that God did not give any reason in His word to even think.



The only fallen angels mentioned in the Word of God are of the order of the Watchers, who appear as a flame of fire or as a "man/ish", in Scripture.

Also, in Ezekiel 28, we have Adam himself mocked as the spirit dwelling in the the king of Tyre; and all Adam is one single Adam spirit, and each seed come to fruit in the Adam race has the house/flesh body built for the soul come into its being, by that residue of the Adam spirit in each Adam seed, doing what the Creator commanded that Adam spirit to do, in the beginning of creation; which was to multiply the one Adam kind so as to get sons of God of the human being kind for the Glory to indwell, as the first temple not made with hands, for that Glory.

That YHWH is mocking the Adam spirit and all in Adam who do what the King of Tyre do, is the same as mocking the Pharaoh of Egypt in Ezekiel's time for saying what he did not say, but what his ancestor did say at the time of the Exodus from Egypt: for it was that Pharaoh who said to Moses; "I do not know YHWH. My river is my own and I have made it for myself".

Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
Jasher 79:46-51 http://www.speakingbible.com/jasher/B01C079.htm
51:And the anger of the king was kindled at their words, and he said to them, But who amongst all the Gods of nations can do this? my river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.


Adam was in the Garden of Eden/Paradise in the third heaven, in the Holy Mount of God above, and Adam was cast down to earth.

2 Cor 12:
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth...
4 How that he was caught up into paradise..

God is addressing the Adam in Ezekiel 28, and in the same passage he also calls the prince of Tyre an Adam.

It is futile to call the prince of Tyre someone else other than the King of Tyre addressed in the same chapter, for in Daniel 10, the Prince of Persia who was fought in the heavenly realm, so as to bind him to the Word of God and let Israel go, is over the Prince of Persia in the earthly realm, which Prince was King Cyrus.
When the heavenly Prince over Persia was bound to the Word of God by the messenger who then came to Daniel, then the earthly Prince/king of Persia, Cyrus, let Israel go [and he who came to Daniel is the same who showed John the things to come, in Revelation, and as he was a brethren of John's -a fellow human being, and a fellow prophet- then I do believe that he was the glorified Enoch, who dwells with and rules with the watchers, and who read the tablets of heaven, called "the Scripture of Truth" in Daniel 10:21].

http://skipmoen.com/2010/11/18/adam%E2%80%99s-real-sin/Anointed Cherub – Ezekiel’s prophetic announcement to the king of Tyre describes more than we might think. Ezekiel provides us with a midrash on Adam. We need to pay close attention to the prophet’s words since they tell us a great deal about God’s intention for creating human beings. “You were in Eden, the garden of God,” Ezekiel writes. This is certainly not historically true of the king of Tyre, but it is true if we look at the general pattern of human behavior as seen in our progenitor, Adam. The prophet tells us that Adam had it all. Everything was prepared for him. He was placed on the holy mountain of God, blameless from the moment of his creation. He was anointed cherub.
Now what does that mean? What do the cherubs do? The word kerub isn’t used very often in Scripture. Our English word cherubim is a transliteration of the Hebrew kerubim (plural), not a translation. Why? The root word kerub is supposed to be the past participle of the verb karab (according to the way Hebrew nouns are formed), but this verb does not exist in Hebrew. The word does occur as a noun in other places, some of which are quite interesting: Genesis 3:24, Psalm 99:1 and Psalm 18:10. The design of the cherubim above the ark is similar to the description found in the vision of Ezekiel (1:4-14). Ezekiel adds to the picture in 10:18-22. You can compare this with John’s vision in Revelation 4:6-8. The kerubim were assigned the task of keeping sinful Adam and Havvah out of the Garden. Their images also guarded the ark of the covenant, standing on both sides of the mercy seat covering. In other words, they are guardians of God’s purposes for righteousness. Now Ezekiel tells us that Adam was supposed to play that role. He was anointed to guard (cover) the Garden, the representation of God’s good creation.
But something happened.
Ezekiel’s prophetic word describes the tragic event of Adam’s sin as idolatry. Adam served the serpent rather than YHWH. Adam listened to the voice of the serpent rather than the voice of YHWH. Adam remembered the words of the serpent but forgot the words of YHWH. Adam, not Eve, made the deliberate choice to serve himself and someone other than YHWH. Adam was created for leadership (mashah – anointed – is often used to describe a ceremonial ritual designating a leader). What kind of leadership? The leadership of the kerub, the guardian of God’s Garden, the protector of all that is good in the eyes of the Lord. But Adam took care of himself. He became the guardian of his own interests. That made him an idolater and required God to remove him from the Garden of Good. By the way, Havvah was also appointed a guardian – the guardian of Adam.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

T

Just as there was a pre-historic earth ... there existed a pre-historic Eden. We are the Johnny come lately's in God's creations. If you do not understand the Old Earth creation you will be forever confused about what the Bible states about Satan at certain times. ...."

That is not Bible doctrine, and God made one plan from the beginning of creation, and before Genesis capter 1, there was nothing.

There was no light until Genesis 1:1.

There was nothing but a very large expanse of water which was the elemental building material out of which the earth and everything that came out of it was made.
On day 1, the suspended firmament -named heavens after they were stretched out- which were part of the waters, were stretched out from the waters between the cut in two waters.
The waters were named "Mayim". The firmament was named "Sha- Mayim" -translated "heavens".

 

[nephilimiyr]

Okay thanks for some more info

When I compare Isaiah 14 and Revelation 12, I still do not see how they conclusively point to one and the same being. I see similarities, I’m not blind lol … “Lucifer” is fallen from heaven, cut down to the ground, then brought down to the sides of the pit where people look upon him and make comments, etc. The Dragon is cast out of heaven, to the ground, then eventually is put into the pit to be chained for 1000 years. So I see similarities … however there is more than just the Dragon who gets cast down to the earth. It is also those angels who followed him. How do you know this isn’t just another angel ? A specific one that was very powerful ? Again, I can see the parallels lol … but how do you know Isaiah 14 is specifically talking about the dragon and not another being in power with him ?

"How do you know this isn't just another angel?"
The reason I believe it is the same angel is because in both cases the angel being talked about is the chief leader. There's no one higher than him in the ranks. In the Isa. passages he is the one who caused the kingdoms to shake. In the Rev. passage, the dragon and his army was defeated. This isn't talking about a mear powerful angel but the head of the army of angels that were defeated. There is no mention of shared authority between two or more angels, there is only one. So, that's at least one reason why I believe this.

Concerning Ezekiel, I think it rests on the assumption that the lack of Genesis mentioning by name a lot of different beings that could have been in Eden, or come and gone through it, means that the serpent and cherub are one and the same since this cherub was in Eden and had issues as well. But where is a cherub ever described as a dragon/serpent/snake ? In Eden, the serpent is actually claimed to be craftier than any of the wild animals that God had made. Is a cherub a wild animal ? I know they are at one point described as having animal faces, but snakes/serpents don’t appear to be one of them. Does “Lucifer” appear to be a wild animal ?

Ok, but do serpents talk? Do any other wild animals talk, reason, and tell lies?

The way the Genesis passages read out, it actually supports my belief that there was but one cherub in the Garden along with Adam and Eve. Of course you'll have to listen to me explain how I don't believe the original Hebrew word that was translated as serpent wasn't really a snake or some kind of animal. The word could also mean shinning like brass. If that is true, Eve never held a conversation with a snake or serpent but a being that was shinning like brass. This isn't my own teaching but one that I have pretty much accepted as being closer to the truth. Eve talked to an angel that shinned like brass, she did not talk to a snake.

And the serpent is cursed after what happened in the Garden. He deceived Adam and Eve, and then is cursed above all livestock and wild animals. How does this parallel the cherub and/or “Lucifer” ?

This could be God insulting Satan by saying, 'hey, you were the most beautiful in my creation. You were set above all others in wisdom and beauty, but now you are cursed above even all the animals. You were on the mount of my throne, but now you will be as low as a snake slithering on the ground'. For a being like Lucifer who, at one time, had it all, this must have been very insulting and cruel.

I can see why someone would make the connections, but I don’t see where they are *definitive*. I personally have not made up my mind yet concretely … and I thank you for typing this out. Do you have more than those passages however ? If so, let er rip. And I hope you don’t take it personally that I pick it apart … that is how I often dig when examining things

I don't think you're going to find any real definitive, or smoking gun type passages that will point blank define all these accounts as one being but for me I believe there's enough circumstancial evidence.

No, I don't take it personal. If you chose to discount everything I say that's fine with me. I do care that you at least understand me correctly and don't misrepresent what I'm saying. You haven't done that so far but have heard me out, and I thank you for that. You've been very gracious and patcient.

 

[TillICollapse]

That speaks of different phases Satan went through, or will be going through,in the process of his judgment and condemnation.

I understand that's one interpretation.

Does the Bible mention any other angel that is the prince of this world? Does the Bible mention any other angel who has access to heaven both day and night, to accuse the believers before God? When Satan will be cast down, it will be the time God will no longer allow for any more accusations by Satan for entering heaven to accuse us before God.

I don't see where the Bible mentions that Satan is an angel. It says he parades around as one, but it specifically seems to call him dragon/serpent/snake/etc. Not cherub, angel, etc.

Just as there was a pre-historic earth ... there existed a pre-historic Eden. We are the Johnny come lately's in God's creations. If you do not understand the Old Earth creation you will be forever confused about what the Bible states about Satan at certain times.

Well ... things get changed for a creature after it falls. Just look at the serpent in the Garden before the fall. It had legs! There were no thorns and thistles on earth before the fall. Things get changed after a fall takes place.

What did prehistoric Eden look like ? Is this the dinosaurs were with Adam idea ?

This is what I believe..

God calls Lucifer the dragon because Satan goes about the earth looking for those whom he can devour. In the previous creation, most likely a creature like T-Rex was created by God in order to show Lucifer and the angels what type of mental attitude Satan manifested since his fall. His nickname probably was tagged the Dragon for that reason. I can see God creating a T-Rex and telling Satan... "Watch this one! He does to others what you have in your heart towards my own in the Kingdom!" So, Satan got tagged with the nick name,..."The Dragon." Just like God changed Saul (which means great) to Paul (which means small) after Paul's conversion. The Bible is filled with name changes like that.

Its just like when Jesus called Herod " that Fox." In that manner,God created certain animals to act as living metaphors to illustrate the mentality of a certain kind of person, or angel. "Stubborn as a mule," etc. "Wise as an owl.."

I don't see where "Dragon" is a nickname ... it seems rather specific.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Verse 17 offers insight into Satan's prehistoric designed function.. And, this is why he was tagged "Lucifer" by certain translators. Lucifer means "light bearer."

Ezekiel 28:17
Young's Literal Translation
​

High hath been thy heart, because of thy beauty, Thou hast corrupted thy wisdom because of thy brightness, On the earth I have cast thee, Before kings I have set thee, to look on thee.
​

The Hebrew can be translated with wording with a much stronger impact. Lucifer became arrogant because of his wisdom and "dazzling brilliance." I If you are curious, I can locate that translation for you. I am not near my small library at the moment.
Lucifer had a dazzling brilliance because he was the one by God's design to herald in the mornings in the previous creation before the sun was provided for this creation.

Isaiah 14:12.. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

​

Other angels in the book of Job were called "morning stars." In the previous creation certain angels had an active part in the lighting activities of the prehistoric worlds. They were the light providers for various things, just like we have a sun, moon, and stars.

After Lucifer fell he and his angels were denied by God their original design function. They no longer are able to materialize in the physical world, yet God's elect angels remain able to. The light of Satan is now called "darkness" in the Bible.


Grace and peace...

Actually, I'm not curious because I agree with you.
You can post it for the benefit of others here though.

 

[TillICollapse]

"How do you know this isn't just another angel?"
The reason I believe it is the same angel is because in both cases the angel being talked about is the chief leader. There's no one higher than him in the ranks. In the Isa. passages he is the one who caused the kingdoms to shake. In the Rev. passage, the dragon and his army was defeated. This isn't talking about a mear powerful angel but the head of the army of angels that were defeated. There is no mention of shared authority between two or more angels, there is only one. So, that's at least one reason why I believe this.


Ok, but do serpents talk? Do any other wild animals talk, reason, and tell lies?

The way the Genesis passages read out, it actually supports my belief that there was but one cherub in the Garden along with Adam and Eve. Of course you'll have to listen to me explain how I don't believe the original Hebrew word that was translated as serpent wasn't really a snake or some kind of animal. The word could also mean shinning like brass. If that is true, Eve never held a conversation with a snake or serpent but a being that was shinning like brass. This isn't my own teaching but one that I have pretty much accepted as being closer to the truth. Eve talked to an angel that shinned like brass, she did not talk to a snake.


This could be God insulting Satan by saying, 'hey, you were the most beautiful in my creation. You were set above all others in wisdom and beauty, but now you are cursed above even all the animals. You were on the mount of my throne, but now you will be as low as a snake slithering on the ground'. For a being like Lucifer who, at one time, had it all, this must have been very insulting and cruel.

Okay thanks again for taking the time ... maybe you can focus on the "shining like brass" concept you are getting from the translation. Exegesis if you're down.

I am "honed" in on the continued representation of Satan as a serpent/snake/dragon/devil. I can't answer about snakes talking and animals holding conversations and such ... but those words are specific. They don't say cherub, angel, or this and that. I'm not saying they aren't one and the same ... I'm not being definitive. I can see the parallels you make and others make. I'm just focussing on the one aspect, specifically, about the one thing I do believe Satan is referred to as over and over.

Brining up the shining brass idea is interesting, because I've always thought it was interesting that Jesus was compared to Moses' bronze snake staff

Why ?

It was interesting to me that Jesus would be compared to a snake lol. Which got me to question, how many "serpents" are there ? Is Satan the only one ? For example ... if he's a cherub, well he's not the only cherub then. If Jesus can be compared to a snake, then there is at least ONE "good" snake comparison.

For awhile I toyed with the idea that the closest connection to identifying the serpent/snake idea was seraphim. So I'd be interested in hearing more about "shining bronze" connections

I know I'm also typing things out a bit disjointed right now ... sorry dude. I'm pretty much toast from the day, and need to go to bed here soon or I'll be typing out word salad lol.

I don't think you're going to find any real definitive, or smoking gun type passages that will point blank define all these accounts as one being but for me I believe there's enough circumstancial evidence.

Gotcha

No, I don't take it personal. If you chose to discount everything I say that's fine with me. I do care that you at least understand me correctly and don't misrepresent what I'm saying. You haven't done that so far but have heard me out, and I thank you for that. You've been very gracious and patcient.

Yeah I try not to misrepresent people And unless I have a revelation on something, and/or see it with my own eyes ... I don't tend to be extremely black and white on a thing. I don't always put forth what I already know, think, or have seen either ... if I'm asking someone what they think, I'm asking because I want to know and it also helps me learn about THEM. I already know about me lol. So I like to hear people out, in context. It's not so much about discounting or accepting it all ... sometimes it's about digging.

Thanks again dude, much appreciated for your time. You don't just preach, teach, or pull a robotic-broken-record act ... you communicate, and that's refreshing

 

[nephilimiyr]

I don't see where the Bible mentions that Satan is an angel. It says he parades around as one, but it specifically seems to call him dragon/serpent/snake/etc. Not cherub, angel, etc.

Job 1:6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Also read Job 2:1-2.

Sons of God are angelic beings, Satan came among them. This took place in heaven before God's throne. If satan is not an angelic being what do you believe he is here in these passages?

What did prehistoric Eden look like ? Is this the dinosaurs were with Adam idea ?

This is what genez and I could never agree upon, at least not totally. genez and I go way back in discussing these things.

I don't see where "Dragon" is a nickname ... it seems rather specific.

Because Satan has been given many names, dragon is just one of them.

 

[TillICollapse]

Job 1:6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Also read Job 2:1-2.

Sons of God are angelic beings, Satan came among them. This took place in heaven before God's throne. If satan is not an angelic being what do you believe he is here in these passages?

Okay I'm going to have to go to sleep here soon, if I can ... I may miss that "sleepiness" window however and end up staying up anyway lol.

But before I go to sleep ... what I believe Satan is there in those passages is a dragon/serpent/etc. It doesn't necessarily mean he's a bene Elohim just because he was with them. It even separates him out from them. And I don't lean in the direction that the sons of God were angelic beings ... celestial beings, yes. Angels like the ones that are cast with Satan to the earth after battling with Michael ... no.

That's the direction I lean. The sons of God seem distinct from other celestial beings. And remember, I believe I have interacted with a being named "Lucifer" as well as Michael ... and they were distinctly different ... so I am going off a point of reference here for what I've *seen*. I do not believe I've seen a bene Elohim yet that I would recognize as such.

This is what genez and I could never agree upon, at least not totally. genez and I go way back in discussing these things.

I'm actually familiar with a few dinosaur=dragon ideas, or that dinos were in Eden with Adam/Eve, etc ... but I'd still be interested in hearing his

Because Satan has been given many names, dragon is just one of them.

Before I shut down, I wanted to mention one more thing:

Concerning wild animals that can talk, etc. And I'm not throwing this out there as a "Well here's an example, so THERE !" in a ridiculous kind of way ... but there are sea mammals that can "talk". It's been fairly established they have language. Not only that, but some of their language we refer to as "song" and they are frequently noted as being some of the most intelligent animals on earth. Elephants are another example of creatures that can communicate with a type of language.

Just thought I'd toss that out there

 

[GenemZ]

But before I go to sleep ... what I believe Satan is there in those passages is a dragon/serpent/etc. It doesn't necessarily mean he's a bene Elohim just because he was with them. It even separates him out from them. And I don't lean in the direction that the sons of God were angelic beings ... celestial beings, yes. Angels like the ones that are cast with Satan to the earth after battling with Michael ... no.

Your arguments are not sound. They are determinations of what you imagine and prefer things to be, rather than what the Bible does teach.

 

[TillICollapse]

Your arguments are not sound.

I don't usually respond to simple accusations like that as I'm not a fan of where that type of convo generally leads, however if you want to be more specific, go ahead.

They are determinations of what you imagine and prefer things to be, rather than what the Bible does teach.

I didn't say what I prefer things to be, and what I imagine things to be is another matter. Again, I'm not a fan of statements like this. You don't know what I imagine things to be or prefer them to be. What you quoted of me, I said I *lean* in certain directions. I would prefer you not try to read my mind or heart again.

 

[GenemZ]

I didn't say what I prefer things to be, and what I imagine things to be is another matter. Again, I'm not a fan of statements like this. You don't know what I imagine things to be or prefer them to be. What you quoted of me, I said I *lean* in certain directions. I would prefer you not try to read my mind or heart again.

I bet you're just instigating. Because you are making stuff up. All you alleged truths about angels vs celestial beings can not be verified with Scripture. Its made up stuff.

Can't debate you on what you claim you have not imagined while the Bible does not even hint at what you claimed.


There is no way to be refuting an imagination that imagines its not imagining things.

But before I go to sleep ... what I believe Satan is there in those passages is a dragon/serpent/etc. It doesn't necessarily mean he's a bene Elohim just because he was with them. It even separates him out from them. And I don't lean in the direction that the sons of God were angelic beings ... celestial beings, yes. Angels like the ones that are cast with Satan to the earth after battling with Michael ... no.

That's the direction I lean. The sons of God seem distinct from other celestial beings. And remember, I believe I have interacted with a being named "Lucifer" as well as Michael ... and they were distinctly different ... so I am going off a point of reference here for what I've *seen*. I do not believe I've seen a bene Elohim yet that I would recognize as such.

Satan was a guardian cherub. Ezekiel 28:13-15 - You are saying that was not an angel???

 

[TillICollapse]

I bet you're just instigating. Because you are making stuff up. All you alleged truths about angels vs celestial beings can not be verified with Scripture. Its made up stuff.

I never alleged "truths". I never claimed that the direction I was leaning was *fact* either. I have no idea what you are saying that I "made up" ? If you're talking about my own personal accounts that I witnessed and experienced, no I didn't make those up.

Again, you've flat out made accusatory statements, especially with the "you're just instigating". I don't usually talk to just hear myself talk. Make more empty accusatory statements and I won't even bother responding to you further in public threads. And if you have a personal issue with me for whatever-your-reasons, and you want to take it to the personal level, do so in private in PM or something, not in public.

Can't debate you on what you claim you have not imagined while the Bible does not even hint at what you claimed. There is no way to be refuting an imagination that imagines its not imagining things.

I am not interested in debating and didn't post with the intent on debating. And I have no idea what you are referencing specifically.

Again, if you want to have a discussion, leave personal accusations out of it. If you feel you must accuse me of something, do it in private and I either will or won't respond there.

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Satan was a guardian cherub. Ezekiel 28:13-15 - You are saying that was not an angel???

I'm saying that I believe a cherub is an angel, but I don't necessarily see where it specifically states that Satan was a cherub, nor do I see where Ezekiel 28 specifically points to the cherub being described as one and the same as Satan. I can see why someone would think that. But all it takes is a cursory examination of other descriptions of cherubs, and a few questions about the way Satan is described in Genesis verses those, to raise the QUESTIONS I have, and why I lean in certain directions but have not chosen to take a stance definitively yet.

If you have an eyewitness account (apart from scripture obviously) however, I'd be interested in hearing that, and can explain why you believe the eye witness account has validity. I am a fan of that type of evidence as well.

I tried again to have a convo with you, and again, if you get inflammatory in public, I'll simply not respond. I haven't treated you with personal disrespect that I can see.