What's the difference between Satan and Lucifer?

[nephilimiyr]

It is good to build one's belief system on the actual Word of God, from the original language.
Note in Psalm 82 that the warning to the congregation of the elohim -the sons of the Most High God- in charge of the earth as rulers and judges [the Dan, who are the Watchers] -is warning them they are in danger of dying like Adam, and falling like the "one prince" -Adam.

Although you and I agree on somethings the problem is we are both coming at this topic from different angles which makes the gulf of understanding between us bigger rather than smaller. I believe you and I are alike, we both view ourselves more as teachers rather than students concerning this topic. I know this about you because you hardly gave what I wrote any credence and basically ignored it. Likewise, I saw so much error in what you wrote I don't even want to try.

I continue to talk to TillICollapse about this because he seems genuinly interested in learning what I have to say. He also seems genuinely interested in learning what you have to say. So, I suggest, lets help him out.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

If they have not been cast out of heaven to earth ... then what was the nature of the lightening-like flash I saw do you think ? I don't think that was the "Lucifer" itself per se ... so what was the nature of the flash specifically ? And why did I see "Michael" in regards to it do you think ?

I have no idea...
Because my Dad was involved in eastern religions and did a hodge -podge of religious practices and got involved in lots of things, our home was a nest for evil happenings and curses on our family. We did not think about that. It was just the way it was.
The unseen world of evil had control over our family, but we also went to Church, and I had a praying, witnessing -in his gentle way- Grand-Daddy.
When the LORD Jesus saved me I was delivered from many things, but not all at once. The most notable was in prayer in the prayer room one night after Church meeting, when we all used to gather for prayer after service [I never hear of that these days], and while in prayer, I discovered myself screaming. I did not know why, and my spiritual mom praying beside me asked me why I screamed, later. I told her; "I don''t know", but I later came to understand that it was a demon leaving. I have seen that happen now, many times, in others who are delivered.

I used to have a nightmare of an evil face that appeared and stared at me, and after the LORD saved me, and after a four day fast for something else, I realized some time later that it had never come back.
Much baggage left my life, but not all at once.
And, I am sure that the LORD is still cleaning this fish which He caught over 45 years ago

 

[yeshuasavedme]

If they have not been cast out of heaven to earth ... then what was the nature of the lightening-like flash I saw do you think ? I don't think that was the "Lucifer" itself per se ... so what was the nature of the flash specifically ? And why did I see "Michael" in regards to it do you think ?

As to guardian angels naming themselves, I only have experience with a guardian angel suggesting a name for me to name my daughter.
When she was born and I was waiting for the nurse to finish cleaning her and hand her to me I was mulling over in my mind what to give her for a front name. I had a middle name, but she was our seventh and unlike the others, I had not decided on a name and it was troubling me, still....as I was mulling it over, of a sudden the sweetest voice I had ever heard in my life wafted before me like a wave and a song passing in front -but the voice was not out loud, but outside myself- and the voice said: Sharon would be a sweet name".
I knew without thinking about thinking about it that it was her angel, and I said -in my mind, to him; "well, if you like it I have nothing against it".
So Sharon it was.
When it happened it was as natural as breathing and I did not think about thinking about it, as I said, but afterwards, I never forgot it.
It was a nice name to give her, because she has indeed always "Upright", the Hebrew word is "Yasher" which Sharon is from.

Otherwise we have about all seen angels in our family at one time or another, and once, and as we prayed always for our children, we would learn afterwards but not from them immediately, that angels had intervened many times in their lives.
Two of our sons [ at different times], heard their angel speak out loud in disgust to them when they were pursuing things they had been warned against which were not clean and not good. It scared both of them -but they did not share with Mom and Dad, even to this day. We found out from certain "informers" -interested parties who were told, and who told us.
Some of our children have seen angels with them, and once, I saw an angel outside the upstairs bedroom of a daughter, at the corner of the house, mid-air, sword in hand. We were praying about something and I saw the angel and knew she saw it too. I said to her; "Do you see that angel"?. -I knew she did, and she said "yes".
I am remembering so many times of a sudden, as I type, when our kids saw angels at this particular time or that, and for this reason or for that, that it is too much to write all down at this time.

Have I seen evil angels? -yep, but as a flash of hateful fire out of the eyes of a woman to whom I was witnessing, once, and as an evil presence when I was talking about some things that I had done before I was saved, once....I immediately stopped giving glory to the devil and began to praise God for setting me free. I realized they were just scooting up close to hear their praises -and I wanted the Holy angels to come close as we praised God together

 

[yeshuasavedme]

BTW: in the book of Tobit, the angel Raphael goes by another name, Azarias, and disguises himself.
Tobit 5:12 Then he said, I am Azarias, the son of Ananias the great, and of thy brethren.

 

[TillICollapse]

If a person wants to run any such experiences through textual/scriptural engagements, that depends entirely on the bias of their impositions.

Sorry for taking so long to respond ... had some stuff I had to do for a few hours.

I basically agree, and that's why I rarely use scripture as a stand alone measuring stick. I like empirical evidence, when possible. It doesn't take rocket science to see that people often use texts to support their biases lol. The measuring stick I was referring to, I would consider empirical evidence.

I do feel quite secure in the statement that no demonic entities have sex with human women and have half breed human devils. There are a boatload of teachings/teachers who say otherwise.

s

I'm well aware of the debate on this ... personally, I haven't made up my mind yet on the subject definitively.

I've met people (who I believed were PEOPLE, not "angels" like Mike) who claimed to be angels, or demons, etc ... and could demonstrate what I would consider spiritual phenomena apart from the norm. Some of them were obsessed with having babies or being impregnated with believers ... yes that's right lol. Even seemingly unawares of their obsession. I've also known people who fit the description for having succubus/incubus ... specifically, I know an example of an atheist I was friends with for many years whom I could give a detailed account of what many may consider a succubus type of spirit. Does this mean I believe these people were angels in disguise, or impregnated by demons, etc ? No ... however I believe there is something spiritual going on there, in some fashion, that to dismiss simply as "demonic and evil" seems too simplistic, and needed more digging.

I will say though, that I have more of a "zoo" point of view on spiritual beings. I don't think it's simply a matter of angel, demon, man, etc. Even a cursory reading of scripture shows various types of spiritual beings. So, until we have a "field guide" on the spiritual "zoo", that is exhaustive lol ... and considering the variety that I, myself, have witnessed or seen first hand ... I don't discount the idea that there is some variety of spiritual being that may be able to cause a mutation in a human being's development, birth, whatever. The Holy Spirit can cause impregnation, Yahweh and perhaps Elohim can aide Sarah in her pregnancy of Isaac (I was debating in another thread how this might be accomplished, and what the Abraham/Sarah pregnancy account entails specifically). So the idea of spiritual agencies being involved in female pregnancy is at least there already in plain view, as far as I can see. So the Genesis 6 type of ideas ... like I said, I haven't made up my mind yet. I would say I lean more in the direction of the nephilim/watchers possibility, but it's by faith I lean in that direction ... I don't have empirical evidence yet

I'll shut up after this lol ... it would appear the best candidates for such an idea as Gen 6 and Enochian literature point to concerning mating with female humans and such, would be alien abduction accounts. Obviously there are plenty of people attempting to prove definitively those types of accounts are legit ... personally, I haven't seen anything like what is classically depicted as "aliens" that I can recall, and I have not known anyone who claimed to have been abducted by aliens that I trust as reliable. I have only seen two UFO's that I can remember ... both of which I'm pretty confident had mundane identifications (I know one of them was a group of planes flying in formation actually). HOWEVER ... my grandfather was a lifer in the US Air Force, and one of those "robotic" types of people that didn't say much, but when they spoke, you knew it was the truth. Factoids lol. He wasn't given much to humor, or telling tales for the sake of telling them. Very cut and dry, to the point ... and he hopped around several bases in the US throughout his career, also spending time in Japan. He never told me that he, personally, saw "aliens" ... but he did tell me that he was on a couple of bases at different points where off limit areas were, and some of the men he knew and trusted who were "in the know", told him enough that he could piece together information, and he presumed there was some type of non-earth-origin craft in possession of the US government at one time. I mean ... it didn't seem to phase him one way or another lol, so it's not like he came off as having an agenda in telling me this. I don't think he would have cared if Cthulu turned out to be real, he would have been like, "Oh well. What's for breakfast ?". So I don't discredit the idea of those types of claims that people have made, because I simply am not sure yet one way or another definitively.

 

[TillICollapse]

I understand, and I hope you do too, this is a very busy time of year, especially this coming week. And a big thank you for writting that out about Satan, I know now that you atleast know where I'm coming from because what you said there is what I believe.

No worries ... take your time, as you have it. If it takes a week or more even ... or if you lose interest ... I won't take it personally. Giving me a heads up shows your human and not a belief-bot lol

I'm very sorry for causing this confusion but I didn't state what I wrote properly. It's my fault, I was over tired and unsure if I wanted to continue with this discussion or not. No, I do not see 2 beings but 2 different accounts of the same being in the Isaiah and Eze. passages. To your credit, you are correct in assuming I am equating them all as the same being/angel, including all the other passages/books you and I have referenced.

No problem there either ... I was thinking you may have mistyped or misspoke, but just wanted to be sure I was taking that into account correctly

I sorta agree with this. Those other two accounts in Isaiah and Eze. are the same being that is discribed as the Dragon/serpent/Satan/Devil. Otherwise, what you wrote here I agree with.


Again, I'm sorry for creating this confusion but they are all different accounts of the same being, he is the leader of the angelic host that has made themselves the enemy of God, he is also the leader of the demons.


I have all of next week off for Christmas so I will have plenty of time then to put together a post that you are looking for.

Okay then, I'll probably not rehash or readdress or re-ask certain points until you've put together a "This is why I believe this, here is what I can point to" type of thread. Then I'll see what you come up with obviously, and go from there.

As to the being you saw that named himself Lucifer, you may be right and I may be wrong, the thing both you and I have to ask is what were you doing to warrant the leader of the fallen host, which may number into the billions, to want to show himself to you?

Well keep in mind I kept the account short and sweet. If I gave you my life story it may be more clear why I would be targeted, or shown such things.

As far as the being I encountered naming himself Lucifer ... again, I don't believe he named himself that. I believe I was shown that through revelation, partially sparked by another believer.

Here is where I have to talk about this guy I work with that I was telling you about yesterday. He told me about his experiences a year ago so I didn't remember everything he said to me. I did talk to him today about it and here is what he said. He never saw a complete angel but only saw his eyes. They were glowing red and he felt a complete sense of evil and hatred. He knew what to do right away and rebuked it and it disapeared. He first saw this when he was on the streets of Detroit witnessing and praying with the people there. But last year he saw this again, two red eyes in front of him that were staring at him, again he rebuked it and it left.

He talked about this with his pastor, and here is where you'll find this interesting, his pastor told him that the Holy Spirit allowed him to see this manifestation to show him what he is up against and that they are real. His pastor told him that it wasn't the power of the demon but the power of God that made this manifestation happen. That's maybe something you might want to consider about your experiences also.

I gotcha ... thanks for talking to him today, and taking the time.

Yeah I'm familiar with those types of experiences ... I haven't seen red eyes specifically, but other types of manifestations. For example, the very first one I saw which I recognized and called an "evil" spirit, was a group of shadowy types of entities ... and this was about 4 hours after having experienced what I would call my first "miracle" and power of the Holy Spirit to perform such a miracle. I attributed being able to see the evil spirit, to God showing me ... as though my "eyes" had been opened to experience the miracle (the Good), and now that they were open, I was seeing the evil (the Evil) in new ways as well. So yeah, I understand that it's not necessarily the spirit manifesting, but God allowing me to see ... or at the very least, my eyes that were given to me "working properly".

One last thing, while he was in Detroit, he came into contact with a man and was in his home, the man was about to kill his wife with a knife. My friend said that this man was possessed by a demon and he stopped him, rebuked it, prayed over the man, and cast out the demon. The man was at first very friendly and then in a moments time totally changed into somekind of wild man and, well, I don't remember all the details but it was similar to being right out of the Exercist movie. The guy just totally freaked out.

But just so that you know, you have to realize that we are at work and don't have alot of time to sit around and talk so everything he told me was basic stuff.

Yeah I know what you mean by "basic". And I understand you're at work and not sitting down with hours to spare over coffee You said he said he has not seen a physical "angel" ... but if perhaps he has seen anything close to what I saw, or if he really thinks about things and remembers something more comparable to my own account, so that I can "compare notes", that'd be cool

Hey thanks again for your time dude ... it's appreciated. And really, no pressure, take your time, if you even decided to respond. No worries

 

[TillICollapse]

I have no idea...

Thanks for this Sometimes I actually think these words are like music lol. I would rather hear this, than be ignored

Because my Dad was involved in eastern religions and did a hodge -podge of religious practices and got involved in lots of things, our home was a nest for evil happenings and curses on our family. We did not think about that. It was just the way it was.
The unseen world of evil had control over our family, but we also went to Church, and I had a praying, witnessing -in his gentle way- Grand-Daddy.
When the LORD Jesus saved me I was delivered from many things, but not all at once. The most notable was in prayer in the prayer room one night after Church meeting, when we all used to gather for prayer after service [I never hear of that these days], and while in prayer, I discovered myself screaming. I did not know why, and my spiritual mom praying beside me asked me why I screamed, later. I told her; "I don''t know", but I later came to understand that it was a demon leaving. I have seen that happen now, many times, in others who are delivered.

I used to have a nightmare of an evil face that appeared and stared at me, and after the LORD saved me, and after a four day fast for something else, I realized some time later that it had never come back.
Much baggage left my life, but not all at once.

Hmmm .... thanks for some of this background. I could probably relate on some of the things you mentioned. If you are ever responding to a post of mine, and can not only use scriptures and your beliefs to add to it, but also feel comfortable enough to tell about and support your POV with what you, yourself, have witnessed ... that would be great, as I would appreciate hearing your beliefs supported by your first hand accounts as well. If you wouldn't mind sharing them of course, as you see fit.

The specific example you previously mentioned about your father seeing the light and such ... seemed different from mine in some regards. Mine was violent, my response to it was violent, there was nothing inviting about it lol. His seemed more inviting, deceptive in that regard, not adversarial, etc. I don't think it was because he was open to it, and I was a believer, that it was different ... but that's just my opinion.

And, I am sure that the LORD is still cleaning this fish which He caught over 45 years ago

Beautiful

 

[TillICollapse]

As to guardian angels naming themselves, I only have experience with a guardian angel suggesting a name for me to name my daughter.
When she was born and I was waiting for the nurse to finish cleaning her and hand her to me I was mulling over in my mind what to give her for a front name. I had a middle name, but she was our seventh and unlike the others, I had not decided on a name and it was troubling me, still....as I was mulling it over, of a sudden the sweetest voice I had ever heard in my life wafted before me like a wave and a song passing in front -but the voice was not out loud, but outside myself- and the voice said: Sharon would be a sweet name".
I knew without thinking about thinking about it that it was her angel, and I said -in my mind, to him; "well, if you like it I have nothing against it".
So Sharon it was.
When it happened it was as natural as breathing and I did not think about thinking about it, as I said, but afterwards, I never forgot it.
It was a nice name to give her, because she has indeed always "Upright", the Hebrew word is "Yasher" which Sharon is from.

Otherwise we have about all seen angels in our family at one time or another, and once, and as we prayed always for our children, we would learn afterwards but not from them immediately, that angels had intervened many times in their lives.
Two of our sons [ at different times], heard their angel speak out loud in disgust to them when they were pursuing things they had been warned against which were not clean and not good. It scared both of them -but they did not share with Mom and Dad, even to this day. We found out from certain "informers" -interested parties who were told, and who told us.
Some of our children have seen angels with them, and once, I saw an angel outside the upstairs bedroom of a daughter, at the corner of the house, mid-air, sword in hand. We were praying about something and I saw the angel and knew she saw it too. I said to her; "Do you see that angel"?. -I knew she did, and she said "yes".
I am remembering so many times of a sudden, as I type, when our kids saw angels at this particular time or that, and for this reason or for that, that it is too much to write all down at this time.

Hmm .... interesting Yes, you are directly hitting upon and referencing a topic that probably would deserve it's own thread, and I'm pretty sure I'm familiar with what you are describing when you say "angel", though I was using a different word for them.

So thanks for sharing that ... and to clarify, the angels you and your family see, are they flesh/blood/physical/touch/eat with/interact with/etc like where I was talking about Mike ? Or are they seen with your spiritual eyes, or in vision, etc ?

Have I seen evil angels? -yep, but as a flash of hateful fire out of the eyes of a woman to whom I was witnessing, once, and as an evil presence when I was talking about some things that I had done before I was saved, once....I immediately stopped giving glory to the devil and began to praise God for setting me free. I realized they were just scooting up close to hear their praises -and I wanted the Holy angels to come close as we praised God together

Hmm, this reminded me of something else I'd seen along these lines ... but I'm starting to see double and need to get away from the computer now I think lol.

Thanks again for your time ... I appreciate it

BTW: in the book of Tobit, the angel Raphael goes by another name, Azarias, and disguises himself.
Tobit 5:12 Then he said, I am Azarias, the son of Ananias the great, and of thy brethren.

Yup, I'm familiar with it, though it's been awhile since I read it

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hmm .... interesting Yes, you are directly hitting upon and referencing a topic that probably would deserve it's own thread, and I'm pretty sure I'm familiar with what you are describing when you say "angel", though I was using a different word for them.

So thanks for sharing that ... and to clarify, the angels you and your family see, are they flesh/blood/physical/touch/eat with/interact with/etc like where I was talking about Mike ? Or are they seen with your spiritual eyes, or in vision, etc ?

Hmm, this reminded me of something else I'd seen along these lines ... but I'm starting to see double and need to get away from the computer now I think lol.

Thanks again for your time ... I appreciate it

Yup, I'm familiar with it, though it's been awhile since I read it

Once, earlier in our now 50 year marriage, we had a car which we had bought new and the gas gauge broke shortly after warranty expired, and it was too much to have it fixed. My husband is a numbers man and a book man and would have made a good accountant; while I am a word person and truly do loathe working with numbers -which got worse as I got older, cause I did not have to, having my math man husband to rely on; anyway, he told me to simply always write down the miles when I filled up and keep the tally on how much gas I had in tank. That was easy for him, but a great burden for me because I also do not like to take time for little details like that -but which he thrives on.
I ran out of gas more than once before I actually learned the lesson of really keeping tally [I was trained by the things I "suffered" -mostly "lectures" from my hubby] and he had to come rescue me quite a few times. But I suffered the lectures -and lectures -and lectures. It was so simple for him to do the math by his nature, but so hard for me to do it by my nature. Even if I did write it down, I was always horribly unorganized [which he never understood, either, cause he is a very organized man -which goes with being a math minded person, I guess], and I would misplace the info -and to remember numbers I wrote was not a thing my mind would, or rather, wanted, to do.

Anyway, one late night, when I was coming home from a ladies home party assembled for selling Princess House Crystal with food and visiting [I sold it so as to get it for my home, cause I thought it was pretty], I ran out of gas. I have no idea how I called him as that was before cell phones, but maybe it was a mobile phone from a stranger, but I did reach him and woke him up...
Now my hubby worked a job that he had to get up about 3 AM for, at that time, and did not like to be called out late for something that should "never have happened in the first place", so he let me know that it was my problem, not his, and that he was going back to sleep! -cause, of course, it should not have happened.

But it did happen, and there I was, on a stretch of road less than two miles from our house, but in the dark, and rural and no light. I am a scaredy-cat for the animals that roam in the dark -you know, like "heffalumps" that want to say "hello! -and then "drop on you" -did I mention that I had 6 children at that time, age 12 and under, and Winnie-The Poo was a large part of my reading material?

anyway, along came a pick-up truck called a "crew truck" for the logging industry here, and I think there were 3 men in it. They asked what the trouble was and I told them.
"No problem", said they, and one of the men rolled a full 50 gallon barrel of gas off the back of the truck, which they said they were taking to a logging site [do they use Gas? H-M-M], and I cannot remember how, but he put gas in my car, and he put it back on the truck.

My husband was incredulous when he asked how I got gas and got home [the next day] because he said "it was not possible" what I said had been done because he said "that barrel of gas weighed about 500 pounds".
I answered; "maybe it was an angel".

 

[squint]

I've met people (who I believed were PEOPLE, not "angels" like Mike)

I wouldn't suppose 'Mike' to have been anything other than a human being from the details of your accounts.

who claimed to be angels, or demons, etc ... and could demonstrate what I would consider spiritual phenomena apart from the norm.

such as?

Some of them were obsessed with having babies or being impregnated with believers ... yes that's right lol. Even seemingly unawares of their obsession. I've also known people who fit the description for having succubus/incubus ... specifically, I know an example of an atheist I was friends with for many years whom I could give a detailed account of what many may consider a succubus type of spirit. Does this mean I believe these people were angels in disguise, or impregnated by demons, etc ? No ... however I believe there is something spiritual going on there, in some fashion, that to dismiss simply as "demonic and evil" seems too simplistic, and needed more digging.

You live in LA or something?...

Wouldn't call demonic activity simplistic, and yes, sexual abberations are demonically sourced as in the people who do slave works are slaves of same.

I will say though, that I have more of a "zoo" point of view on spiritual beings. I don't think it's simply a matter of angel, demon, man, etc. Even a cursory reading of scripture shows various types of spiritual beings. So, until we have a "field guide" on the spiritual "zoo", that is exhaustive lol ... and considering the variety that I, myself, have witnessed or seen first hand ... I don't discount the idea that there is some variety of spiritual being that may be able to cause a mutation in a human being's development, birth, whatever. The Holy Spirit can cause impregnation, Yahweh and perhaps Elohim can aide Sarah in her pregnancy of Isaac (I was debating in another thread how this might be accomplished, and what the Abraham/Sarah pregnancy account entails specifically). So the idea of spiritual agencies being involved in female pregnancy is at least there already in plain view, as far as I can see. So the Genesis 6 type of ideas ... like I said, I haven't made up my mind yet. I would say I lean more in the direction of the nephilim/watchers possibility, but it's by faith I lean in that direction ... I don't have empirical evidence yet

I don't view any birth as apart from Gods Intents in some way or fashion.

As to the descriptions of angelic or Holy Spirit activity in the text, perhaps not from a 'zoo' perspective. We do get a peek behind the door of the physical. What it means from there get's interesting. Some people approach the subjects as if it were magic incantations or a genie bottle.

I'll shut up after this lol ... it would appear the best candidates for such an idea as Gen 6 and Enochian literature point to concerning mating with female humans and such, would be alien abduction accounts. Obviously there are plenty of people attempting to prove definitively those types of accounts are legit ... personally, I haven't seen anything like what is classically depicted as "aliens" that I can recall, and I have not known anyone who claimed to have been abducted by aliens that I trust as reliable. I have only seen two UFO's that I can remember ... both of which I'm pretty confident had mundane identifications (I know one of them was a group of planes flying in formation actually). HOWEVER ... my grandfather was a lifer in the US Air Force, and one of those "robotic" types of people that didn't say much, but when they spoke, you knew it was the truth. Factoids lol. He wasn't given much to humor, or telling tales for the sake of telling them. Very cut and dry, to the point ... and he hopped around several bases in the US throughout his career, also spending time in Japan. He never told me that he, personally, saw "aliens" ... but he did tell me that he was on a couple of bases at different points where off limit areas were, and some of the men he knew and trusted who were "in the know", told him enough that he could piece together information, and he presumed there was some type of non-earth-origin craft in possession of the US government at one time. I mean ... it didn't seem to phase him one way or another lol, so it's not like he came off as having an agenda in telling me this. I don't think he would have cared if Cthulu turned out to be real, he would have been like, "Oh well. What's for breakfast ?". So I don't discredit the idea of those types of claims that people have made, because I simply am not sure yet one way or another definitively.

Yeah, a whole nuther animal there. I have a couple friends whom I consider credible that had some interesting experiences there. Even read a few books on the subject a few years ago just for kicks. Again, there are other avenues to view than aliens from another planet.

The human conscience/brain is a delicate and interesting matter. Definitely subject to manipulation from within and without.

s

 

[TillICollapse]

Once, earlier in our now 50 year marriage, we had a car which we had bought new and the gas gauge broke shortly after warranty expired, and it was too much to have it fixed. My husband is a numbers man and a book man and would have made a good accountant; while I am a word person and truly do loathe working with numbers -which got worse as I got older, cause I did not have to, having my math man husband to rely on; anyway, he told me to simply always write down the miles when I filled up and keep the tally on how much gas I had in tank. That was easy for him, but a great burden for me because I also do not like to take time for little details like that -but which he thrives on.
I ran out of gas more than once before I actually learned the lesson of really keeping tally [I was trained by the things I "suffered" -mostly "lectures" from my hubby] and he had to come rescue me quite a few times. But I suffered the lectures -and lectures -and lectures. It was so simple for him to do the math by his nature, but so hard for me to do it by my nature. Even if I did write it down, I was always horribly unorganized [which he never understood, either, cause he is a very organized man -which goes with being a math minded person, I guess], and I would misplace the info -and to remember numbers I wrote was not a thing my mind would, or rather, wanted, to do.

Anyway, one late night, when I was coming home from a ladies home party assembled for selling Princess House Crystal with food and visiting [I sold it so as to get it for my home, cause I thought it was pretty], I ran out of gas. I have no idea how I called him as that was before cell phones, but maybe it was a mobile phone from a stranger, but I did reach him and woke him up...
Now my hubby worked a job that he had to get up about 3 AM for, at that time, and did not like to be called out late for something that should "never have happened in the first place", so he let me know that it was my problem, not his, and that he was going back to sleep! -cause, of course, it should not have happened.

But it did happen, and there I was, on a stretch of road less than two miles from our house, but in the dark, and rural and no light. I am a scaredy-cat for the animals that roam in the dark -you know, like "heffalumps" that want to say "hello! -and then "drop on you" -did I mention that I had 6 children at that time, age 12 and under, and Winnie-The Poo was a large part of my reading material?

anyway, along came a pick-up truck called a "crew truck" for the logging industry here, and I think there were 3 men in it. They asked what the trouble was and I told them.
"No problem", said they, and one of the men rolled a full 50 gallon barrel of gas off the back of the truck, which they said they were taking to a logging site [do they use Gas? H-M-M], and I cannot remember how, but he put gas in my car, and he put it back on the truck.

My husband was incredulous when he asked how I got gas and got home [the next day] because he said "it was not possible" what I said had been done because he said "that barrel of gas weighed about 500 pounds".
I answered; "maybe it was an angel".

Haha great story ! I want to make a "blustery day" joke here, but I'll refrain lol

And not to make light of your story by ANY means at all ... but have you ever encountered what you believed was a physical/flesh-blood/type "angel" who identified themselves as such ?

 

[WisdomTree]

I always used to believe that Lucifer = Satan/Devil. In fact I used to flips through pages and pages of the Bible to look for the "Fall", but never actually found it. I thought I found it once, but turns out it was a figment of my imagination. In the end, it wasn't all that important and I was probably too obsessed with the subject of angelogy at the time.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Haha great story ! I want to make a "blustery day" joke here, but I'll refrain lol

And not to make light of your story by ANY means at all ... but have you ever encountered what you believed was a physical/flesh-blood/type "angel" who identified themselves as such ?

No, but Paul, having read the writings and the Torah did remind: Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Hbr 13:2
So if I have entertained angels, they did not make themselves known to me; but we have entertained strangers, and have been entertained when traveling across the states as if we were angels.....I remember when we once traveled cross-country, by car, and stopped for Church to worship on a Sunday morning that one lady insisted we come home to have lunch with her, "cause she had prepared it already".
She lived alone, and had a meal for strangers -and there we were!
Explain it I do not.

 

[TillICollapse]

I wouldn't suppose 'Mike' to have been anything other than a human being from the details of your accounts.

Removing all of the context surrounding the first time I met him, and just looking at it from a bare bones POV ... he vanished within 60 seconds, along with a truck, a generator, fishing chairs, gear, lights, etc. He was easily 70 yards from his truck and generator that was running, power cords he had running to the chairs, etc. It took him around 30 minutes just to set up. I don't see how he would have been able to gather all his stuff together, and leave, in less than a minute's time.

If he was just a human being, I suppose he could have been physically translated. I have experienced that *one* time.

Of course other skeptical answers apply: the person I was with and I were really distracted for like, 10 minutes or more, and not 1 minute. We simply lost track of time and what seemed like 1 minute was really 15 to 20. All the surrounding context of the account (like the vision, the fire and utensils being provided, the idea that "God lead us to a place, provided the fire, and we ate with an angel unawares at first," being seemingly like something out of the OT, etc) could just have been us putting pieces together that were more mundane.

But assuming that I am at least accurate in how fast this man was able to vanish with all his things ... and that the person with me was just as taken aback (mind you, they did NOT agree that it was necessarily an angel, or Michael, but they did not have an explanation for how this person seemingly vanished) ... how do you account for that ?

such as?

Typically what people would consider paranormal type of phenomena: light bulbs exploding or electrical equipment failing, knowing information they could not have known, freak responses in the weather, doppelgängers, the typical laundry list

You live in LA or something?...

I know right In all honesty though, I'm well traveled lol

I don't view any birth as apart from Gods Intents in some way or fashion.

I lean towards disagreeing with this. Not sold firm on it, but I lean towards disagreeing.

As to the descriptions of angelic or Holy Spirit activity in the text, perhaps not from a 'zoo' perspective. We do get a peek behind the door of the physical. What it means from there get's interesting. Some people approach the subjects as if it were magic incantations or a genie bottle.

I know what you mean about the magic/genie/etc

Yeah, a whole nuther animal there. I have a couple friends whom I consider credible that had some interesting experiences there. Even read a few books on the subject a few years ago just for kicks. Again, there are other avenues to view than aliens from another planet.

Arguably, anything that doesn't have earth as it's origin is "alien". That would throw God, and celestial beings into that category, the Kingdom of God, etc. It's just one of those words that has a bias association with it, which either deals with little grey men, or people crossing the border into the US lol.

The human conscience/brain is a delicate and interesting matter. Definitely subject to manipulation from within and without.

s

Indeed.

One more quick account, for your consideration:

The very first time I believe I was filled with the Holy Spirit ... I was not even aware what it was. I had no doctrinal biases, or preconceived notions. I hadn't read much of the scriptures. I *did* believe the standard societal idea by osmosis that "God was out there" and "we are over here" type of thing. However, to cut to the chase ... the first time I believe I was filled with the Holy Spirit, I had a physical response. I'm fairly certain my body temperature rose, it felt like a fresh, new type of breeze or wind was entering me, which was like, cool and warm at the same time. Like a cold fire. I felt my mind start to clear, it seemed as though I started to get really flush ... and it felt like switches which I didn't even know where there "inside of me" started to flip on and whir to life. Like something dead was being made alive. And I started to communicate with a voice ... it was like, in between a voice in my head, verses in the physical world around me. Almost like sound being conducted, but not originating in my mind, nor originating from outside to where everyone else could hear it. Now I was around about 6 other people or so at this time, so everyone could see me ... and I started to cry, overwhelmingly so. Not like weep with sadness, or joy, just cry ... like, that was my physical response.

The voice was asking me to ask it something ... as though it wanted to show me something. Not sure if I was going crazy or not, or simply talking to some voice in my head (I still had my wits, I wasn't like, "Yes ! Yes ! I'm in ecstasy !" I could think for myself in other words ... however I had this undeniable response to this as though it was "God" on some level. As though I was experiencing a piece of "God") ... I asked the voice to part the ocean in front of me lol (from where I was standing, I could see the ocean off in the distance). I had the feeling as though I shouldn't ask something to "prove the voice and experience were real." And at that feeling, I got angry ... I was almost sure then, that I was falling prey to some mind trick, or imagining things, etc. Because I remember thinking it was a cop out to not perform such an amazing, obvious, miracle, if this were really God I was speaking to suddenly and experiencing. But the "Spirit" didn't leave, and the voice still was there, and asked me to ask more. So I asked for money lol ... I was almost broke, and afraid. I felt the voice laugh, and gave me the feeling like, "Don't worry about that, it's taken care of,". So again, I felt like it was a cop out ... honestly, I felt a bit reassured, but it seemed like another cop out.

So I thought I would ask one last time, as the voice was still waiting for me to seemingly learn something. So I thought about it ... I had these acquatinences, who had a mutual friend who was dying of cancer. I didn't know the guy personally, I just knew OF him. I didn't know what he looked like, or even where he lived. I literally just knew his name, and the detail he was dying of cancer. So I thought about it, and I said to myself, "If I wanted to do something good, and Christian-like, I would ask something for somebody else," so I asked the voice if I could pray over this man to be healed of his cancer ... and the voice said, "Yes."

At that ... I had what I would describe as a vision ... it took place not just in my mind, nor outside of my mind, but like the "in-between place". The mind's eye I suppose. I saw with absolute detail, this man in his bed, in a room ... with specific placing of bedroom equipment, and color of sheets and patterns on comforters ... down to the manner in which the curtains were parted and the way the sun was filtering through them. Alongside of me, were two other people ... they were like wispy ghost types of figures. I actually knew who these other two people were .. they were friends of mine who happened to not be friends of this guy lol, so I wasn't sure why they were there.

After I had this vision cemented into my mind, the wind feeling settled, the voice left, I settled down ... and the people around me didn't seem to hear anything, and I didn't tell them what I saw ... instead I left to go find my wife (at the time). I told her everything that had happened to me ... and I told her in detail what I saw. I wrote it all down. Over the next couple of days, I talked to pastors, teachers, preachers, from multiple denominations, different types of believers ... charismatics to those that didnt even believe in such things ... to my surprise, not a single one of them said, "You experienced God !" or, "Yup, that's how God talks !" or anything like that. Not one of them. Interestingly enough, I had no one deny it either ... I did get the standard, "Compare it to scripture, you could just be feeling things, etc". type of stuff.

I was obsessed with the experience for the next several days, realizing that I needed to verify it, and to verify it, I needed to find out where this guy with cancer actually lived. I also talked to the other people who were like "ghosts" in the vision ... and one of them actually said they believed God had shown them once they were going to be a healer, and have the gift of physical healing. So we found out where this guy lived ... he lived about 2000 miles away lol. I was on an island at the time, off the mainland, and just to get to him, I would have to fly of course ... and I didn't even have enough money most of the time to buy gas to drive around the island lol.

At this, I tried to let the idea go. I mean, I thought the guy was going to be a few neighborhoods away or something. So I didnt' even have the MEANS to go see for myself if the vision I had matched up.

So I tried to let it go ... and honestly, all but forgot about it. A couple of months passed by, and me and my wife were getting ready to leave the island and go to Europe. We had managed to get the funds together, and we had a job lined up there ... and I suddenly remembered my "vision". And I decided to try and make it work .. to try and work a layover in the US on our flight to Europe. One thing lead to another ... a check in the mail for 200$ showed up that had been lost ... and literally, within 48 hours of remembering the vision and deciding to try and act upon it ... I managed to call the number to this individuals house (from getting the info from his friends), ask his family if I could show up and just pray for him (to my surprise, they said I could), and schedule a layover at an airport near his home town, where I would then have to rent a car to drive a few hours to see him lol. That 200$, was able to get me to do all of that. And my wife was down with it. Now those other two people with me in the dream that were "ghost like" ... did not come.

Our flight was late, arrived late, yada yada .... but when we got to this man's house, and I finally walked into his room, I saw, in detail, my vision exactly ... in every, single detail. And I had written the details down months earlier, and for those people whom I did tell my experience to, I told them the details as well. Even the position of the sun behind the curtains were exact ... all of it. And I froze, and had this, "I'm looking at a part of reality I didn't realize before" type of paradigm moment, and the voice came back at that moment, and said, "Well done," and I was just left standing there in awe, amazement, surreal-ness ... I said a simple 3 second prayer over the man, and then went outside the room. I'm surprised I wasn't glowing.

So I went from wondering between if I was "hearing voices" and going crazy, or actually "heard from God and being filled with the Holy Spirit." However, months later, with no planning, I was able to verify the vision ... down to the details of even the time of day. It was as though I witnessed a moment in time that I didn't even know I was going to experience or not. And since I had written this down months earlier, and told others, I had a manner of verifying my own account to match up with reality ... so it's not like I was making it up on the spot, "This is what I saw ! I can't prove it because I didn't tell anyone or write it down, but I knew this would happen !" etc. For me, that was "proof" that God exists, speaks to us, the Holy Spirit is real, that we can be shown such things, and that it can produce concrete evidence to look at, etc. That is one of my "measuring sticks". So yes ... the brain is sensitive, etc and etc. Feelings, thoughts, imaginations ... if I had not had my vision and experience verified, it could be chalked up to just that: feelings, bodies response to chemicals being released, delusional thinking, imaginative thinking, etc. However I did have it verified, and it put it into perspective, and so it's not so easily dismissed. So when I see someone like "Mike", and I also begin to experience that same spiritual response like I had when I had that vision ... I lean towards the side of faith that I did perhaps see Michael and not just a guy. Things did in fact vanish, and it wasn't just me and my friends loss of time. Etc.

 

[squint]

Removing all of the context

[cut for post word limits]

If he was just a human being, I suppose he could have been physically translated. I have experienced that *one* time.

Of course other skeptical answers apply: the person I was with and I were really distracted for like, 10 minutes or more, and not 1 minute. We simply lost track of time and what seemed like 1 minute was really 15 to 20. All the surrounding context of the account (like the vision, the fire and utensils being provided, the idea that "God lead us to a place, provided the fire, and we ate with an angel unawares at first," being seemingly like something out of the OT, etc) could just have been us putting pieces together that were more mundane.

But assuming that I am at least accurate in how fast this man was able to vanish with all his things ... and that the person with me was just as taken aback (mind you, they did NOT agree that it was necessarily an angel, or Michael, but they did not have an explanation for how this person seemingly vanished) ... how do you account for that ?

In reading the details of your general mindset surrounding those matters, (where I have been myself on occasions past) a person's sense of time can and does shift. An easy example is the 'slowing' of time in how we perceive every little detail just prior to a severe accident or trauma. A similar shift in time perception can and does occur in the general state of mind you were in at the time. It is not uncommon. The 'seeming' heightened awareness factor when on the evil witch hunt can do very strange things to our minds. I would call it a suck in, as in you were being mentally toyed with, within. And that toying, that internal manipulating, particularly when we are focusing on the boogeyman externally or around 'some other people' as you were with your neighbors can be very deceptive in many ways.

Typically what people would consider paranormal type of phenomena: light bulbs exploding or electrical equipment failing, knowing information they could not have known, freak responses in the weather, doppelgängers, the typical laundry list

I don't discount those matters. I have had my own experiences in that arena as well. And yes, there is activity manifestations of unseen powers.

I know right In all honesty though, I'm well traveled lol

I lean towards disagreeing with this. Not sold firm on it, but I lean towards disagreeing.

I don't discount demonic activity in anyone, even myself. The action of temptation is in fact an internal demonic manifestation. Spiritism, occult practices, etc all toy with the demonic entity class, and all who therein toy are taken and they are deceived. It is however very real, as in familiar spirits.

I know what you mean about the magic/genie/etc

Arguably, anything that doesn't have earth as it's origin is "alien". That would throw God, and celestial beings into that category, the Kingdom of God, etc. It's just one of those words that has a bias association with it, which either deals with little grey men, or people crossing the border into the US lol.

There is no definitive we can lay on God. That is relegated to indescribable terms. As to other powers? Undoubtedly. Invisible powers, powers of darkness, powers of evil are a fact of the scriptures. And they are powers that we ourselves contend with. Even when not cognizant of them. There is a depiction of this here for example:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It is an arena to be cautious in because the wrestling match is much closer to home than we perceive it to be, as in 'between our own two ears.'

Let us just say that we carry our own worst enemy(s) and they are not meant to be friend or ally.

One more quick account, for your consideration:

The very first time I believe I was filled with the Holy Spirit ... I was not even aware what it was. I had no doctrinal biases, or preconceived notions. I hadn't read much of the scriptures. I *did* believe the standard societal idea by osmosis that "God was out there" and "we are over here" type of thing. However, to cut to the chase ... the first time I believe I was filled with the Holy Spirit, I had a physical response. I'm fairly certain my body temperature rose, it felt like a fresh, new type of breeze or wind was entering me, which was like, cool and warm at the same time. Like a cold fire. I felt my mind start to clear, it seemed as though I started to get really flush ... and it felt like switches which I didn't even know where there "inside of me" started to flip on and whir to life. Like something dead was being made alive. And I started to communicate with a voice ... it was like, in between a voice in my head, verses in the physical world around me. Almost like sound being conducted, but not originating in my mind, nor originating from outside to where everyone else could hear it. Now I was around about 6 other people or so at this time, so everyone could see me ... and I started to cry, overwhelmingly so. Not like weep with sadness, or joy, just cry ... like, that was my physical response.

I had a similar experience upon belief after reading through the 4 Gospels and believing. I 'felt' the warm love of God in Christ in my body. And yes, it was glorious. And afterwards I basked in that for quite a long time. And I could not get enough of the Word. I must have read through the entire Bible 4 or 5 times in the space of 6 months. It was like Mothers Milk to me.

But eventually a person comes down from that experience and back to reality. And that by design. And a person is moved in several ways in life. Some good, some bad. All by design.

The voice was asking me to ask it something ... as though it wanted to show me something. Not sure if I was going crazy or not, or simply talking to some voice in my head (I still had my wits, I wasn't like, "Yes ! Yes ! I'm in ecstasy !" I could think for myself in other words ... however I had this undeniable response to this as though it was "God" on some level. As though I was experiencing a piece of "God") ... I asked the voice to part the ocean in front of me lol (from where I was standing, I could see the ocean off in the distance). I had the feeling as though I shouldn't ask something to "prove the voice and experience were real." And at that feeling, I got angry ... I was almost sure then, that I was falling prey to some mind trick, or imagining things, etc. Because I remember thinking it was a cop out to not perform such an amazing, obvious, miracle, if this were really God I was speaking to suddenly and experiencing. But the "Spirit" didn't leave, and the voice still was there, and asked me to ask more. So I asked for money lol ... I was almost broke, and afraid. I felt the voice laugh, and gave me the feeling like, "Don't worry about that, it's taken care of,". So again, I felt like it was a cop out ... honestly, I felt a bit reassured, but it seemed like another cop out.

God talks to me continually. We usually reason together out of the scriptures. It's much more pleasant and not as apt to distraction of 'voices.' I ask tough questions of my Maker and He is quite liberal in His Word sharing. More than enough to keep me occupied, as it has been for 30+ years now.

So I thought I would ask one last time, as the voice was still waiting for me to seemingly learn something. So I thought about it ... I had these acquatinences, who had a mutual friend who was dying of cancer. I didn't know the guy personally, I just knew OF him. I didn't know what he looked like, or even where he lived. I literally just knew his name, and the detail he was dying of cancer. So I thought about it, and I said to myself, "If I wanted to do something good, and Christian-like, I would ask something for somebody else," so I asked the voice if I could pray over this man to be healed of his cancer ... and the voice said, "Yes."

At that ... I had what I would describe as a vision ... it took place not just in my mind, nor outside of my mind, but like the "in-between place". The mind's eye I suppose. I saw with absolute detail, this man in his bed, in a room ... with specific placing of bedroom equipment, and color of sheets and patterns on comforters ... down to the manner in which the curtains were parted and the way the sun was filtering through them. Alongside of me, were two other people ... they were like wispy ghost types of figures. I actually knew who these other two people were .. they were friends of mine who happened to not be friends of this guy lol, so I wasn't sure why they were there.

After I had this vision cemented into my mind, the wind feeling settled, the voice left, I settled down ... and the people around me didn't seem to hear anything, and I didn't tell them what I saw ... instead I left to go find my wife (at the time). I told her everything that had happened to me ... and I told her in detail what I saw. I wrote it all down. Over the next couple of days, I talked to pastors, teachers, preachers, from multiple denominations, different types of believers ... charismatics to those that didnt even believe in such things ... to my surprise, not a single one of them said, "You experienced God !" or, "Yup, that's how God talks !" or anything like that. Not one of them. Interestingly enough, I had no one deny it either ... I did get the standard, "Compare it to scripture, you could just be feeling things, etc". type of stuff.

I was obsessed with the experience for the next several days, realizing that I needed to verify it, and to verify it, I needed to find out where this guy with cancer actually lived. I also talked to the other people who were like "ghosts" in the vision ... and one of them actually said they believed God had shown them once they were going to be a healer, and have the gift of physical healing. So we found out where this guy lived ... he lived about 2000 miles away lol. I was on an island at the time, off the mainland, and just to get to him, I would have to fly of course ... and I didn't even have enough money most of the time to buy gas to drive around the island lol.

At this, I tried to let the idea go. I mean, I thought the guy was going to be a few neighborhoods away or something. So I didnt' even have the MEANS to go see for myself if the vision I had matched up.

So I tried to let it go ... and honestly, all but forgot about it. A couple of months passed by, and me and my wife were getting ready to leave the island and go to Europe. We had managed to get the funds together, and we had a job lined up there ... and I suddenly remembered my "vision". And I decided to try and make it work .. to try and work a layover in the US on our flight to Europe. One thing lead to another ... a check in the mail for 200$ showed up that had been lost ... and literally, within 48 hours of remembering the vision and deciding to try and act upon it ... I managed to call the number to this individuals house (from getting the info from his friends), ask his family if I could show up and just pray for him (to my surprise, they said I could), and schedule a layover at an airport near his home town, where I would then have to rent a car to drive a few hours to see him lol. That 200$, was able to get me to do all of that. And my wife was down with it. Now those other two people with me in the dream that were "ghost like" ... did not come.

Our flight was late, arrived late, yada yada .... but when we got to this man's house, and I finally walked into his room, I saw, in detail, my vision exactly ... in every, single detail.

-[cut some for word limits]

So I went from wondering between if I was "hearing voices" and going crazy, or actually "heard from God and being filled with the Holy Spirit." However, months later, with no planning, I was able to verify the vision ... down to the details of even the time of day. It was as though I witnessed a moment in time that I didn't even know I was going to experience or not. And since I had written this down months earlier, and told others, I had a manner of verifying my own account to match up with reality ... so it's not like I was making it up on the spot, "This is what I saw ! I can't prove it because I didn't tell anyone or write it down, but I knew this would happen !" etc. For me, that was "proof" that God exists, speaks to us, the Holy Spirit is real, that we can be shown such things, and that it can produce concrete evidence to look at, etc. That is one of my "measuring sticks". So yes ... the brain is sensitive, etc and etc. Feelings, thoughts, imaginations ... if I had not had my vision and experience verified, it could be chalked up to just that: feelings, bodies response to chemicals being released, delusional thinking, imaginative thinking, etc. However I did have it verified, and it put it into perspective, and so it's not so easily dismissed. So when I see someone like "Mike", and I also begin to experience that same spiritual response like I had when I had that vision ... I lean towards the side of faith that I did perhaps see Michael and not just a guy. Things did in fact vanish, and it wasn't just me and my friends loss of time. Etc.

From the gist of your experience quotient you've been a believer for what? 6-8 years? Maybe less?

If the guy didn't get healed, you were being deceived. There is a certain obsession factor that will plague a believer in the early stages of growth until they learn to put it away and move on to more 'real' matters. Matters that are much more simple, and much more precious. You know, like simply loving our neighbors as ourselves and providing for our family and others.

It can be a strange train ride for awhile though. And some people never get off the train. Chasing and obsessing with everything, trying to figure out some sort of perceived present tense spiritual applications on this side of the ledger and that side of the ledger and with their own actions and judging their every move.

It's not beneficial to yer head. I have many pentecostal and charismatic friends who sound just like you. I quit playing the game cause it was a DEAD END. In the end it was just another angle of deceptions. Me trying to validate my experience in odd ways. Some people just can't get off the train. It is largely one of individual subjectivity. At some point we get moved from individual subjectivity to press toward Objectivity, which is an extension of faith and proclamation, and more importantly, beneficial sharing.

s

 

[TillICollapse]

No, but Paul, having read the writings and the Torah did remind: Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Hbr 13:2
So if I have entertained angels, they did not make themselves known to me; but we have entertained strangers, and have been entertained when traveling across the states as if we were angels.....I remember when we once traveled cross-country, by car, and stopped for Church to worship on a Sunday morning that one lady insisted we come home to have lunch with her, "cause she had prepared it already".
She lived alone, and had a meal for strangers -and there we were!
Explain it I do not.

Yeah I assumed by my posts it was already obvious I was experiencing these types of things I was asking about those that more definitively identify themselves, etc ...

So when you say before in your previous post that you/your family see angels all the time (like one standing in air with sword), in what manner do you see them ? I presume not physical-touch-them so to speak, but "spiritually" ?

 

[TillICollapse]

In reading the details of your general mindset surrounding those matters, (where I have been myself on occasions past) a person's sense of time can and does shift. An easy example is the 'slowing' of time in how we perceive every little detail just prior to a severe accident or trauma. A similar shift in time perception can and does occur in the general state of mind you were in at the time. It is not uncommon. The 'seeming' heightened awareness factor when on the evil witch hunt can do very strange things to our minds. I would call it a suck in, as in you were being mentally toyed with, within. And that toying, that internal manipulating, particularly when we are focusing on the boogeyman externally or around 'some other people' as you were with your neighbors can be very deceptive in many ways.

It's a possible explanation, I loss track of time, being sucked in, etc. I'm generally aware of these types of explanations however. In many ways, you hear them just as ad nauseum as the , "You can't prove that it wasn't supernatural !" types of responses, or appeals to text/others to prove something, etc.

There is no definitive we can lay on God. That is relegated to indescribable terms. As to other powers? Undoubtedly. Invisible powers, powers of darkness, powers of evil are a fact of the scriptures. And they are powers that we ourselves contend with. Even when not cognizant of them. There is a depiction of this here for example:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It is an arena to be cautious in because the wrestling match is much closer to home than we perceive it to be, as in 'between our own two ears.'

I would probably agree that there is no definitive we can lay on God, as of yet. I may say that no matter how much proof, or lack of it ... it is still a matter of faith. Because if God is the only one like Himself, then there is nothing to compare God to. He either is the only One like Himself, or not ... so it is still a matter of faith to accept there aren't more like Him out there, so to speak. I can compare the DNA of animals to each other, and study their behavior to understand, "This is what lions do. I know it's a lion, because lions do this and that, and this is their specific DNA, etc" but if I come across a single sample of DNA that matches no known species ... what do I call it ? How do I know it's the only one like itself ? And if the species if of a form that we don't currently recognize as being "alive" (carbon based, sentient, has a metabolism we understand, etc), then how do I even know it's "alive", etc ? So I may agree that we don't have a definitive means yet ... although it's easy for us to say, "Those who know, know. His sheep know His voice. The children of the Kingdom do this and that, the children of "other" do this and that."

I will say however, until there is a "DNA test for God and Spirit" so to speak, that I have seen all manner of people from multiple walks of belief, culture, etc ... recognize a specific type of presence of God. I have even known atheists who have responded to God in this way ... and it's almost like what I describe an animal's response to an alpha, apex, type of being would be. Like, instinctual. There is something you just "know", by spiritual instinct perhaps, that you are in the presence of the One who created you ... you are linked to them in that manner and all of your being responds to this. It's not mental, or emotional, it's something linked to our direct existence. Taking this into account, I'm not saying that is definitive ... but there is something to that as a sort of litmus test as well imo, in discerning what is coming from what.

Let us just say that we carry our own worst enemy(s) and they are not meant to be friend or ally.

I had a similar experience upon belief after reading through the 4 Gospels and believing. I 'felt' the warm love of God in Christ in my body. And yes, it was glorious. And afterwards I basked in that for quite a long time. And I could not get enough of the Word. I must have read through the entire Bible 4 or 5 times in the space of 6 months. It was like Mothers Milk to me.

But eventually a person comes down from that experience and back to reality. And that by design. And a person is moved in several ways in life. Some good, some bad. All by design.

Yes I understand the roller coaster, etc. Although I wouldn't say it's coming "back to reality". Reality is reality lol.

God talks to me continually. We usually reason together out of the scriptures. It's much more pleasant and not as apt to distraction of 'voices.' I ask tough questions of my Maker and He is quite liberal in His Word sharing. More than enough to keep me occupied, as it has been for 30+ years now.

Cool

From the gist of your experience quotient you've been a believer for what? 6-8 years? Maybe less?

Hmm, over 30 years. Most Christians who have not spent time with me in person, always try and guess that I'm new to the faith, or relatively new, or try and guess my "maturity" level. It's always been that way, whether I was on year 1 or year 34 I handle different types of people differently (esp based on the way they handle their opinions ... I generally don't argue with someone I think is wrong, and they may even think I agree with them lol), and the way I take in information isn't always uniform, so it's not always easy to infer "where I'm at in my walk" or whatever.

If the guy didn't get healed, you were being deceived. There is a certain obsession factor that will plague a believer in the early stages of growth until they learn to put it away and move on to more 'real' matters. Matters that are much more simple, and much more precious. You know, like simply loving our neighbors as ourselves and providing for our family and others.

I understand the growth stages you are describing ... however whether the guy got healed or not isn't so cut and dry. The person who claimed to have the gift of healing ... didn't go with me. And this individual I prayed over supposedly got a little better, and then passed away months later. I could look at the guy who didn't go with me, as being the part of the Body who had the gift to heal. A team effort. So it's not so black and white.

However ... who would you think I was deceived by ? My own machinations ? Evil ?

It can be a strange train ride for awhile though. And some people never get off the train. Chasing and obsessing with everything, trying to figure out some sort of perceived present tense spiritual applications on this side of the ledger and that side of the ledger and with their own actions and judging their every move.

It's not beneficial to yer head.

I know what you mean, I'm familiar with the train

I have many pentecostal and charismatic friends who sound just like you.

Hmm ... I think I understand the comparison, however, again ... I wouldn't make too many conclusions about who I am overall, based on a few experiences I shared.

I quit playing the game cause it was a DEAD END. In the end it was just another angle of deceptions. Me trying to validate my experience in odd ways. Some people just can't get off the train. It is largely one of individual subjectivity. At some point we get moved from individual subjectivity to press toward Objectivity, which is an extension of faith and proclamation, and more importantly, beneficial sharing.

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I would disagree it's a dead end, for multiple reasons. I would agree that some of those trails a person takes that train down DOES seem to go in circles ... however that in and of itself can be revealing about the nature of the train ride and is another lesson learned in growth and discernment. But not all trains are *equal*, imo.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yeah I assumed by my posts it was already obvious I was experiencing these types of things I was asking about those that more definitively identify themselves, etc ...

So when you say before in your previous post that you/your family see angels all the time (like one standing in air with sword), in what manner do you see them ? I presume not physical-touch-them so to speak, but "spiritually" ?

Open eyes to see, and they are real, but in the realm of the spirit they are seen in exact locations and doing exact things.
The "all the time" was more in the past, and as needed.
We walk with God and He walks with us. It's just a supernatural life, walking with Jesus.
There are dreams, visions, miracles, words of wisdom, knowledge, tongues, governing, whatever we need to do what He wants us to do at the moment, or to show us at the moment, for the job to get done that He wants to do.

My nephew [age 55] was 5 years old when there was an accident and he fell backwards, losing his balance, while holding a pocketknife for his dad [cause he "wanted to help Dad", so Dad said," here, hold this a minute while I get more duct tape out" - for wrapping something with], and it went deep into his eye, severing the optic nerve.

Of course it was not immediately known how severe the damage was, but that is what it turned out to be. and the date for surgery was set.

My sis -the Mom- cannot even bear to be in contact with bugs and creepy crawlies and is a vegetarian, not even liking to deal with meat [though she always did, for the rest of her family], and she could not bear the thought of her son having a glass eye for the rest of his life, which was the only option given, because they were going to remove the eye.

In the days leading up to the date set for surgery, my sister got her husband off to work every morning and knelt down at her living room couch and began pouring out her heart to God for His mercy, pleading that her son would not lose his eye.
Now my sister was not a Christian at that time, but a backslider from having once, as a youngster, answered the call to commit her life to Christ in a Church she attended with a friend. But that childhood commitment faded away....and here she was, in need of God....so she sought, and she was desperate.

On one of the mornings that she was praying, her son called out from his bedroom -he was still in bed and it was before daybreak:
"Momie, Mommie! "I saw an angel".
She went running into his room, and he said, with awe; "There was an angel here, and he touched my eye!".
Sis was a bit shaken up, and was thankful, and weepy and could not wait to see what the DR said.
The next exam was for prep for surgery, and the exam and x-rays revealed that the optic nerve was not damaged, and was intact, and no removal of the eye was necessary, now.

Sis did not keep all the promises she had made to God at that time, and the eye never recovered sight, only could tell light from dark, and read the big "E" on the optometrists chart.
She did surrender to the LORD a few short years later, and has lived for Him ever since; but she was a stubborn rebel at heart, and God worked on her bit by bit...like me.

About 9 years or so ago I asked my nephew if he remembers the event, and he said he only remembers it happened, but that he cannot recall the actual happening, as a grown-up. The DR records proved it happened, and the eye surgeons prepared to remove the eye had no answer for how it happened.

We have lots of stories of such in our family -doesn't everyone!

 

[TillICollapse]

Open eyes to see, and they are real, but in the realm of the spirit they are seen in exact locations and doing exact things.
The "all the time" was more in the past, and as needed.
We walk with God and He walks with us. It's just a supernatural life, walking with Jesus.
There are dreams, visions, miracles, words of wisdom, knowledge, tongues, governing, whatever we need to do what He wants us to do at the moment, or to show us at the moment, for the job to get done that He wants to do.

Yes I know all of this lol ... I was trying to find out specifically the nature of they appeared to you. The physical-way that arguably anyone could see and interact with, the personal "in revelation vision" way that only a person can see through revelation while others around them might not see (in the mind's eye, as people say), the "mix" --- where you can see them "spiritually" and their effect, but others cannot see them, however they can see the effect of their presence, etc and so forth, as the effect manifests physically, etc.

I was looking for comparison sakes, not for teaching on what's possible with God, etc. Thanks for sharing that story about your nephew however

 

[TillICollapse]

Back to the OP ...

Does anyone believe they have seen "Satan" ... a physical-touch-taste-feel entity they identified as such ? As a "Dragon", is he the only "Dragon" ? Are there more than one ?