What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

[RestoredGospelEvidences]

Perhaps not the best example, because aside from the very famous example of David and Bathsheba, kings like Solomon and David did not take multiple wives because they had runaway libidos. They took them because that was how alliances were made in antiquity. That is why Solomon in particular takes foreign wives. In some ways, these wives served as hostages.



Not so much Christianity because the polygamy was against Roman Law. Besides, early on celibacy was considered the ideal Christian life. In Islam polygamy was allowed but never the ideal.



In the Tanakh sheol is merely the grave. It is not what Christians typically consider hell.

But my question remains, do you think monogamy or polygamy should be the ideal?

Good points about why David & Solomon took wives, however, Jacob in the Book of Mormon points out what happened to David & Solomon, when David, etc, did what they did out of lust. That's the whole point of Jacob 2.

True, historic Christianity, most of the different branches, didn't do polygamy, & even there were many of the Priests & monks that later lived unwedded, as part of their monastic quests for Christian moral perfection. However, nuns in Catholic thought, are suppose to be wedded to Christ, & there are a lot of them.

As for Tanakh sheol, that might be true, but is not all of what historic Christians believed, for there are many art works & writings that depict souls being rescued by Christ out of hell, hades, limbo, purgatory, & King David is sometimes depicted in the large group being resurrected. Some times Christ lifts souls out of an open pit, cave, or from under ground.

Alice K. Turner, 1993, The History of Hell, (New York, San Diego, U.S.A.; London, England: Harcourt Brace & Company).

Alan Richardson and John Bowden, (Editors), Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: The Westminster Press, CR SCM Press Ltd 1983, first Published in Great Britain, 1983, entitled: A New Dictionary of Christian Theology). See the article entitled: The Descent into Hell. by A. T. Hanson.

Anna D. Kartsonis, Anastasis, The Making of An Image, (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1986).

Chandler Rathfon Post, A History of Spanish Painting, (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1930—1958). (New York: Kraus reprint Company, 1970's).

Darell Thorpe, Upon Them Hath The Light Shined (1995).

Geoffrey R. King, The Forty Days, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: W.M. B. Eerdmans, 1949).

Henry Ansgar Kelly, The Devil at baptism: Ritual, Theology, and Drama, (Ithaca and London: Cornell University Press, 1985).

Huge Nibley, Dr. Mormonism and Early Christianity, (1987). Nibley, Baptism for the Dead in Ancient Time, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Improvement Era, 51—52, (December 1948—April 1949).

Jeanne Villette, La Resurrection Du Christ, Dans L'Art Chretien Du IIe Au VIIe Siecle, (Paris, France: Henri Laurens, Editeur, 1957).

Jeffrey Burton Russell, Satan, The Early Christian Tradition, (Ithaca, London: Cornell University Press, 1981).

John P. Lundy, Monumental Christianity, Or the Art and Symbolism of the Primitive Church, (New York: J. W. Bouton, 1875 & 1882).

Martha Himmelfarb, Tours Of Hell, An Apocalyptic Form in Jewish and Christian Literature, (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1983).

R. Joseph Hoffmann, (translator) Celsus On The True Doctrine, (A Discourse Against the early Christians), (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987). Even the early anti-Christian Celsus, 2nd cent., knew of Christ's descent into the infernal regions to preach the gospel there to "try" to convince souls there. Celsus mocks the belief. T. W. Doane, Bible Myth, And Their Parallels In Other Religions, (New York: The Truth Seeker Company, 1882 & 1910). He has a whole chapter on Christ's descent into hell, cites early Christians, then claims the belief was "borrowed" from pagan myths.

Robert Hughes, Heaven and Hell in Western Art, (New York: Stein and Day/Pub., 1968).

Walter Lowrie, Art In The Early Church, (Washington Square, New York, New York: Pantheon Books, 1947).
William Barclay, The Apostles' Creed For Everyman, (New York and Evanston: Harper and Row, 1967). Mentions Christ's descent into hell.

June 2, 1991, Martin Tanner, Host of Religion on the Line, guest: Darell Thorpe, subject: The Journey of the Soul in Early Christian art works and writings. On KTKK 630 AM radio, South Jordan, Utah, USA.

Hallenfahrt Christis, in Richard Paul Wulker, Bibliothek der Angelsachsischen Poesie, (Leipzig: Wigands, 1897), 3 vols.

Himmel Hölle Fegefeuer, Das Jenseits im Mittelalter, 1994, Schweizerisches Landesmuseum, Zurich, Wilhelm Fink Verlag, Munchen.

 

[BobRyan]

If SDAs believe there there is a devil & demons or fallen angels, then they believe in some aspects of the pre-existence drama! Even if they aren't willing to admit that, or reject the other aspects of the rest of the story, & reject earlier Christian doctrines on it, & reject earlier bibles that start with it.

The story about being spirit brothers before being born on earth - is not at all applicable to fallen Angels who were never born on earth and who are STILL spirits. If you move to South America that does not mean you were spirit brothers in pre-existence in North America before you moved there. You simply moved -- no "birth" in South America at all.

You are equivocating in the extreme if you believe that simply moving across town or angels moving from heaven to earth is "prexisting spirit brothers" - the angels that fell are still spirits and simply moved ... no pre-existence simply continued existence.

People, when they've died & returned, like in car crashes, etc., are revived, talk of seeing spirits getting ready or waiting to be born.

Here then is a story that fits the Mormon story -- it involves spirits getting read to be born as humans on earth. That is very different than "moving from one town to another" and stories NOT involving a pre-existing spirit preparing to be born as a human.

This "spirit waiting to be born as a human" element is entirely missing from your other examples.. (In fact Angels were created ... and are still spirits to this very day according to Hebrews 1 - they are ALL spirits and so not humans)

. In time, it became strange stories & interesting myths, about gobblins, trolls, underworld demons, like in Lord of the Rings. Or like in Russian folklore, the dark creatures that haunt the forrests, streams, lakes, or water spirits, and caves or underworld creatures, are the fallen angels that fell down deep into the underworld.

Interesting myths - but your prior example about "getting ready to be born" is more in line with the doctrine you are trying to get at.

As for LDS missionaries, they are often young 19-22 year olds, who haven't yet learned what LDS scholars have discovered in their studies of ancient histories.

I never ask them for "ancient stories about demons" -- I ask them about their story regarding humans being spirit brothers in heaven before being phsyicaly born on earth. They say they do not know where that is in the BoM or the Bible.

But, heres a bibliography on how the Book of Mormon & historic Christianity contains the beliefs in the pre-existence.

LeGrand L. Baker, & Stephen D. Ricks, Who Shall Ascend Into the Hill of the Lord? in it is a number of references to "the sode experience" where a prophet sees a vision of the council in heaven, etc., (BOM 1 Nephi 1:8-11).

1 Neph 1:8-11 a great source to find text which "does not talk about spirits getting ready to be born on earth"

8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.
9 And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.
10 And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.
11 And they came down and went forth upon the face of the earth; and the first came and stood before my father, and gave unto him a book, and bade him that he should read.

Other references to pre-existence themes in the BOM are: 1 Nephi 10:18-19; 11:7,

Another great example of a text that does NOT say anything at all about spirits in heaven getting ready to be born as humans on earth.

1 Nephi 10:18-10
18 For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him.

19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Even Nephi 11:7 is not an example of spirit brothers in heaven getting read to be born as humans on earth.

7 And behold this thing shall be given unto thee for a sign, that after thou hast beheld the tree which bore the fruit which thy father tasted, thou shalt also behold a man descending out of heaven, and him shall ye witness; and after ye have witnessed him ye shall bear record that it is the Son of God.

No wonder those 19 year old Mormon missionaries admit that they don't know of anything in the BoM that talks about spirit brothers in heaven getting ready to be born as humans on earth - before being born on earth!!

Lamb of God (Christ) descending out of heaven, 1 Nephi 12:6, 2 Nephi 9:4-16, Christ taking upon himself a body, suffering the atonement in it.

Out of curiousity- are you saying that Christ was born as a baby twice on earth? and that twice on earth he died on the cross once in America and once in the Middle East?

Have you read Hebrews 10?

Carl A. Raschke, Painted Black, From Drug Killings to Heavy Metal—The Alarming True Story of How Satanism is Terrorizing our Communities, (New York, New York: Harper Paperbacks, 1990). Demonification is a popular theme in heavy metal rock music, the reversal of Whitesunday is Black Sabbath, also the wearing of black robes, symbolic of being demonified on the left hand path. Blackened (color symbolism), like the fallen angels & devil.

Interesting that you are "going there" for your source.

Ernst and Johanna Lehner, Devils, Demons, Death and Damnation, (New York: Dover Pictorial Archive Series, Dover Publishing Inc., 1971).

Henry Ansgar Kelly, The Devil at baptism: Ritual, Theology, and Drama, (Ithaca and London: Cornell University Press, 1985).

J. Charles Wall, Devils, (London, England: Methuen & Company, 1904; Detroit: Singing Tree Press, Book Tower, 1968, reissued).

Jeffrey Burton Russell, Satan, The Early Christian Tradition, (Ithaca, London: Cornell University Press, 1981). Lucifer, The Devil In the Middle Age, (1984). The Prince of Darkness, Radical Evil and the Power of Good in History, (1988).

Linda J. Ivanits, Russian Folk Belief, (Armonk, New York & London England: M. E. Sharpe, Inc. 1989).

Louis Coulange (Father Louis Coulange), The Life of the Devil (London, England: Alfred A. Knopf, 1929, translated from the French by Stephen Haden Quest).

Paul Carus, Dr., The History Of The Devil And The Idea Of Evil, From the earliest times to the present, (La Salle, Illinois: Open Court Publishing Company).

I think your focus on the devil to get support for the LDS doctrine about all humans having been spirit brother's in heaven prior to being born as humans on earth - is a lot of equivocation but also somewhat instructive that you need to go there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps not the best example, because aside from the very famous example of David and Bathsheba, kings like Solomon and David did not take multiple wives because they had runaway libidos. They took them because that was how alliances were made in antiquity. That is why Solomon in particular takes foreign wives. In some ways, these wives served as hostages.

More precisely - God never commanded them to do it. Smith claims God commanded him to do it and also the other Mormons no matter the grief that it caused their real wives.

 

[LoAmmi]

More precisely - God never commanded them to do it. Smith claims God commanded him to do it and also the other Mormons no matter the grief that it caused their real wives.

David was given wives by HaShem. I would assume it was a command to take them.

 

[BobRyan]

David was given wives by HaShem. I would assume it was a command to take them.

Deut 17
15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

========================

Multiple.

Plural wives -- condemned not only in the BoM - but in the actual Bible. Specifically -- and especially in the case of Kings of Israel.

 

[smaneck]

16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

========================

Multiple.

Plural wives -- condemned not only in the BoM - but in the actual Bible. Specifically -- and especially in the case of Kings of Israel.

By that logic David is only allowed one horse.

 

[LoAmmi]

Deut 17
15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

========================

Multiple.

Plural wives -- condemned not only in the BoM - but in the actual Bible. Specifically -- and especially in the case of Kings of Israel.

2 Samuel 12:8
I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

 

[Ironhold]

http://valerietarico.com/2012/10/05...efs-mormons-might-not-want-you-to-know-about/

^This pretty much highlights the original mormon belief.

1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 - Openly taught and discussed, making the author's lack of familiarity with them and their twisting of the facts that much more incredible.

3 - Subject of active discussion among church members at all levels.

4, 11 - The "negatives" that the author raises indicate that they are well behind the current research.

12 - The author unquestioningly cites a source known to be problematic when skepticism is warranted. (There is strong evidence to suggest that Philastus Hurlbut deliberately sought out people who were illiterate, presented them with pre-written affidavits, and talked them into signing without letting on just what they were putting their names to.)

Again - have you read any LDS material for yourself, or are you simply going off of what third parties have to say?

 

[mmksparbud]

(Act 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


what God may have allowed at some point is very different from Him commanding you to do it. And He des not continue to allow it. Abraham was married to his half-sister, which is not allowed after Moses.

 

[smaneck]

(Act 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

You realize that is a reference to idol worship?

 

[mmksparbud]

(Act 17:28) For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

(Act 17:29) Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

(Act 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

(Act 17:31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

OK----let's just go ahead and say it's only about idol worship---still, then, once He winked---now no longer. Does He then say idol worship will be ok if I later say it is??

 

[smaneck]

OK----let's just go ahead and say it's only about idol worship---still, then, once He winked---now no longer. Does He then say idol worship will be ok if I later say it is??

You realize that nowhere does the Bible insist on monogamy except for bishops and elders?

 

[BobRyan]

(Act 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


what God may have allowed at some point is very different from Him commanding you to do it. And He des not continue to allow it. Abraham was married to his half-sister, which is not allowed after Moses.

Smith claims God "commanded him" to commit what the BoM calls abomination and wickedness stealing other men's wives and wounding his own wife Emma.

 

[BobRyan]

Deut 17
15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

========================

Multiple.

Plural wives -- condemned not only in the BoM - but in the actual Bible. Specifically -- and especially in the case of Kings of Israel

2 Samuel 12:8
I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

7 Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 9 Why have you despised the word of the Lord by doing evil in His sight?

It is a matter of Bible record - David did not marry any of Saul's wives.

==================

Notice that the only way to defend the Mormon practice of polygamy - is to try and find ways to "infer" some instance of God commanding abomination and sin. Whatever the bible condemns - well then God commands you to do it??

 

[RestoredGospelEvidences]

The story about being spirit brothers before being born on earth - is not at all applicable to fallen Angels who were never born on earth and who are STILL spirits. If you move to South America that does not mean you were spirit brothers in pre-existence in North America before you moved there. You simply moved -- no "birth" in South America at all.

You are equivocating in the extreme if you believe that simply moving across town or angels moving from heaven to earth is "prexisting spirit brothers" - the angels that fell are still spirits and simply moved ... no pre-existence simply continued existence.



Here then is a story that fits the Mormon story -- it involves spirits getting read to be born as humans on earth. That is very different than "moving from one town to another" and stories NOT involving a pre-existing spirit preparing to be born as a human.

This "spirit waiting to be born as a human" element is entirely missing from your other examples.. (In fact Angels were created ... and are still spirits to this very day according to Hebrews 1 - they are ALL spirits and so not humans)



Interesting myths - but your prior example about "getting ready to be born" is more in line with the doctrine you are trying to get at.



I never ask them for "ancient stories about demons" -- I ask them about their story regarding humans being spirit brothers in heaven before being phsyicaly born on earth. They say they do not know where that is in the BoM or the Bible.



1 Neph 1:8-11 a great source to find text which "does not talk about spirits getting ready to be born on earth"





Another great example of a text that does NOT say anything at all about spirits in heaven getting ready to be born as humans on earth.



Even Nephi 11:7 is not an example of spirit brothers in heaven getting read to be born as humans on earth.


No wonder those 19 year old Mormon missionaries admit that they don't know of anything in the BoM that talks about spirit brothers in heaven getting ready to be born as humans on earth - before being born on earth!!



Out of curiousity- are you saying that Christ was born as a baby twice on earth? and that twice on earth he died on the cross once in America and once in the Middle East?

Have you read Hebrews 10?



Interesting that you are "going there" for your source.






I think your focus on the devil to get support for the LDS doctrine about all humans having been spirit brother's in heaven prior to being born as humans on earth - is a lot of equivocation but also somewhat instructive that you need to go there.

in Christ,

Bob

Your whole response here is just gobbally gook, not much of a response at all, in attempting to claim that the whole pre-existence theme has to strickly be about "all humans having been spirit brothers, before coming down to earth" like they are moving from heaven to earth? Nor is your response attempting to re-interpret the Book of Mormon for us to be accepted. Just as your attempts to claim what we Mormons believe, how we are suppose to interpret our own doctrines, when we have a hard enough time ourselves with understanding what is official, what is scholarly interpretations, what is speculations, opinions, & so forth.

But, it's OK, if you're ignorant about historic Christianity, haven't taken the time to check out the bibliography offered here, or don't know about how color symbolism connects up with the subject, or the wearing of white robes or black robes does too, that's OK. We all have to be willing to explore new areas to learn that which we don't know about. The fact is, those books cited & links offered, gives evidences for different aspects of studies done on the pre-existence, and making references to books about the devil & satanism is part of the study, Satan being one of the main fallen angels & the color black often being symbolically associated with him & his fallen angels. The war in heaven also being a part of the pre-existence drama too, which was also illustrated in earlier bibles, acted out in mystery or moral plays during the Middle ages to the present time.

Gustav Davidson, 1967, A Dictionary Of Angels, Including the Fallen Angels, (New York; London: The Free Press, and Collier-Macmillan Limited).

Alice K. Turner, 1993, The History of Hell, (New York, San Diego, U.S.A.; London, England: Harcourt Brace & Company).

Carol Zaleski, Otherworld Journeys, Accounts of Near-Death Experiences In Medieval and Modern Times, (New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987).

Clifford Davidson, Editor, The Iconography of Heaven, Early Drama, Art, and Music, Monograph Series, 21, (Kalamazoo, Michigan: Medieval Institute Publications, Western Michigan University, 1994).

Colleen McDannell and Bernhard Lang, Heaven: A History, (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1988).

Maury Terry, The Ultimate Evil, (Garden City, New York: Dolphin Book, Doubleday and Company, 1987).

L. W. Stokes, Temple Texts and the Pre-Mortal Council, (Salt Lake City, Utah: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Historical Library, Archives, call slip # PQ M233.3 5874t, 1980), typescript paper presented to John M. Lundquist, November 23, 1980.

"Barnabas made the explicit symbolic connection between evil, darkness, and blackness, symbolism that was to have a long and sinister history in Christian. The Prince of Darkness, Jeffery Burton Russell, 1988, Cornell Un. Press, Ithaca, N.Y., p.54-55; (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, = (TANF), Vol.1:133, 151, 155.
Job 1:6, 38:4-8, 32:8, Ezk.28:13-19, Acts 2:22-36, 7:1, 30, 38, 13:29-37, 17:29-30, 38; & Num.16:22, 27:16; Eccl.12:7; Isa.9:6, 14:12-19,
30:1-5, 57:16, 63:9, 15-16; Zech.3:1, 12:1; Heb.12:9; Jer.1:5; Rom.6:3-11, 8:16, 29-30; Titus 1:1-2; 2 Tim.1:9; Heb. c.1-2; Jn.3:13, 6:33-51 & 62, 7:5, 28-33, 8:42, 57-9, 9:1-2, 12:44, & 49, 16:5, 28, 17:18; 20:21. Ex.3:1-14; Jude 6; 2 Pet. 2:4; Rev.6:9-11; 8:10, 9:1, chap.12, 13:10; Gen.2:4-5; Acts 17:29; John 1:1-14, 3:13, 6:33-53, 62, 7:28-33, 8:42, 57-9, 12:31-2, 44, 49, 16:5, 17:5-24, 20:21, Prov.30:4; Exod.3:1-14; Phil.2:5-12; The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 1:5-15; Luke 10:18. Luke 4:33-41, 11:14-22; Jude 9; Mark 3:11-12. Amos 3:7; Eph.1:3-14, 3:3-15, 4:10-14; 1 Pet.1:19-21; 2 Nephi 2:5-30; Eccl.12:7; Luke 16:22-23; Heb.12:9; Gal.6:6-10; Jude 14-16; Isa.28:9-10; 1 Cor.2:6-16; 3:1-3, 15:12-28, Ps.xcvi.5; Deut. 32:8; Acts 17:26; Matt.24:34; Eph.4:7-10; Isa.14:12-19, 24:17-22, 26:19, 42:6-7, 49:8-9, 51:14; Psa.68:18, Rev.13:10, 1 Pet.3:15-22, 4:5-6; Lundy, op. cit., p.66; The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol.1, pp.27, 55, 57, 61, 83, 90, 105-6, 118-9, 139, 157-8, 167-173, 178, 181-86, 190-1, 213-31, 217, 219, 228, 230, 238, 241, 243, 250-1, 263, 264, 272, 285, 300-1, 331, 340, 346, 352, 356, 409-12, 421, 445-6,
449-51, 455-7, 462-3, 469, 478, 481, 488, 493-4, 499-500, 506, 510, 516-25, 543-4, 547, 549-53, 558, 560, 569, 572-3, & 575-7; Vol.2, pp.3, 10, 12, 61, 66-8, 73-4, 165-169, 215-219, 230-1, 253-4, 263-6, 453-4, & 582-3, etc., Vol.3, pp.17, note 1, & 34-8, 44, & p.536, Tertullian, On The Flesh of Christ, (Translated by Dr. Holmes), v. chap. xvii. Tertullian [A.D. 145-220], rejects some aspects of pre-existence, accepting others, (he said the spirit & body were created at the same time at birth), but he also accepted the Book of Enoch as scripture, and also wrote that "God therefore sent down into the virgin's womb His Word, [Jesus Christ] as the good Brother, who should blot out the memory of the evil brother" [the devil]. (TANF) Vol.4, pp.14-6, 23, 26, 32, 223, 263-4, 341-3, 405, 407, 422, 424, 427-8, 447, 464, 526-7, 538-9, 543-4, 558, 560, 565-71, 581, 591-607, 609, 632, 638-9, 640-1, 643-5, 648-9, 651-2, & 659-60; Vol.8, pp.52-6, 64, 73-4, 83-4, 105-110, 195; The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers, Vol.1, pp.82-88, Vol.5, pp.11, 17, 518-24; Vol.6, pp.xvi & xxv; Vol.12, xiii & xxix; Vol.14, p.312, 316-9; Clem. Alex., Strom., i. 15: Herodot., ii. 123; Clem. Rec.1:24; 7; Temple & Cosmos, Dr. Huge Nibley, p.194-5, & note 77 on p.209, Barnabas, Epistola Catholica 6-7, in PG 2:740-41; Approaching Zion, Nibley, p.580-1, & note 73, on p.613; A History of Christian Doctrine, Shedd, Vol.II, pp.3-10, (3rd Edition), 1883. The Lost Books of the Bible, p.143, 2nd Clement, chap.4:2; The Shepherd of Hermas, Sim. IX:110-111, p.149-151, Barnabas, chap.iv:7, v:10, & v:12; The Forgotten Books of Eden, 131; Interpreter's Dict. of The Bible, 3:869, etc.; New Eng. Bible, the `Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20,' David Winston's commentary, Anchor Bible Series, The Wisdom of Solomon (Garden City: Doubleday, 1982), n.17; Ancient Israel Myth & Legends, V.1 p.7, 42-3, etc., by Angelo S. Rappoport; Fallen Angels, by Bernard J. Bamberger, 1952, p.109-110; Celsus On The True Doctrine, (A Discourse Against the early Christians), Translated by R. Joseph Hoffmann, Pub. by Oxford Un. Press, 1987, p.55-7, 77, 80, 87, 89, 94, & 105; The Apocrypha & Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, 2, p.228, by R.H. Charles. Enoch, Book of, in Smith's Dictionary of the Bible. The Book of Enoch The Prophet, Trans. by Richard Laurence, LL.D., re-issued: Williams & Norgate 1892, pp.14, 46-7, 54, 60, 84-9, etc.; Joshua Moses Bennett, The Writings of the Rabbis & Other Important Discoveries, p.11, Doct.#21-22, citing from The Zohar the Book of Splendor, I:25a-25b, I:36a-36b, & on p.22, Doct. #42, citing IV:7a, & on p.30, Doct.#54, citing from: The Book of Enoch, Trans., from the Slavonic by W. R. Morfill, sec. Bk. En. XXIII:4-5; on p.38 Doct.#61, citing from: Discoveries in the Judaean Desert of Jordan, Qumran Cave 4., I(4Q158-4Q186) p.80., by John M. Allergo, with the collaboration of Arnold A. Anderson, Palestine Archaeological Museum Ecole Biblique Et Archeologique Francaise, Oxford Un. Pr. 1968. And on p.39-40, Doct.#64, citing from: The Apocryphon of John, from: Gnosis: Character & Testimony, Robert Haardt, trans., into Eng. by J.F. Hendry, -The Apocry. of Jn., p.192-194., 1971. &: Josephus Complete Works, Trans. by William Whiston, A.M., Pub. by Kregel Pub. Mich., 1960, 1978, 1981-1984, see: Antiquities of the Jews, p.28, & n.*, of bk.1, c.3; The Gospel of the Great Spirit, 1990; J. Eugene Seaich's works: The Heavenly Council, Mysteries & Sacred Ordinances, pp.1-10, an unpub. research paper; Ancient Text & Mormonism, 1983, p.31-42, 127-8, & notes 153-9, etc.; Mormonism, The Dead Sea Scrolls & The Nag Hammadi Texts, Seaich, p.5-12, etc.; The Homilies of Saint Jerome, pp.106-7, & p.353, Pub. The Cath. Un. Press, Wash. DC 1964; Forerunners & Rivals Of Christianity, (330 B.C. to 330 A.D.), by Francis Legge, 1964, 2 Vols. in 1, see: V.2, pp.42-3; Prolegomena C. II & III, & De Antima et Resurrectione. Dogmengeschichte 4, I. 211; etc. Paradise Lost, b.i, 323-431. Art of the Early Renaissance, by Michael Batterberry, 1964, pl.130. p.120-1, etc.; Anastasis (The Making of An Image), by Anna D. Kartsonis, Pub. by Princeton Un. Pr. N.J., 1986, pp.4-6, 13-14, 16, 21-22, 26 & 29, etc.; Dictionary of Christian Lore & Legend, by JCJ Metford, 1983; Early Gothic Manuscripts (II) 1250-1285, by Nigel Morgan, 1988, fig.37, (Paris, Bibl. Nat., fr.403. f,8v & f.19v (cat.103); Early Christian Art, text, Volbach, fig.93. Classical Inspiration In Medieval Art, Oakeshott, pl.80. The Carolingian Renaissance, Hubert & Volbach. Art Of the Medieval World, Zarnecki, fig.132, p.135. The Medieval Treasury, Ed., Williamson, p.116-7; Treasures From The Kremlin, (An Exhibition from the State of Museums of the Moscow Kremlin at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, N.Y., May 19-Sept.1979, and Grand Palais, Paris, Oct. 12, 1979 & Jan. 7, 1980), Pub. by Metro. Mus., of Art, N.Y., Distrib. by Harry N. Abrams, Inc., p.18-19, 131-2.
Origen, Strom, VI, 14, col. 337; Iv, 18, col. 1321; De Principiis, II, 9, 6, also Adversus Celsum, Iv, 70, 54; cited by Tixeront, Historie des Dogmes dan l'Antiquite chretienne, vol. 1, p. 312.

Paradise Lost, John Milton, (An Authoritative Text Backgrounds and Sources Criticism), Edited by Scott Elledge, Cornell Un., Pub. by W.W. Norton & Co., N.Y., Lon., 1975, p.8-9, & 324-5. The 2nd edition of an original title reads: Paradife Loft. A Poem in Twelve Books. Pre-existence, Wisdom, & the Son of Man, by R.G. Hamerton-Kelly, p.9-10, 16-21, 39, 53, 112, 124-130, 146-153, 174-189, etc.

Closer to the Light, by Dr. Melvin Morse, M.D., 1990, p.6-7. Beyond the Veil, by Lee Nelson, 1988 Cedar Fort Inc., Orem, Ut., pp.37-42. "I Wanted Those 2 Little Girls" by Janet Christensen, c.3. Ibid., 1990, vol.3, c.12, pp.87-90, "I Saw My Children," by Juliann Johnson Bradshaw. Martin Tanner, interviews of some people who have had NDEs. KTKK 630 AM Radio, Ut. "Religion On The Line" hosted by Martin Tanner, Nov. 5 & 12, 1989, & July 15, 1990, Also Betty Eadie on KTKK, as Mr. Tanner's guest, June 7, 1992, Dec. 20, 1992, & Feb. 7, 1993; Mrs. Eadie's Embraced by the Light, 1992; The Salt Lake Chapter Of The "International Association For Near Death Studies" = (IANDS), or the "Friends of IANDS." = (FOINDS), News Letters numbers 4-7, Nov. 1992, #4, Dec. 1992 -- JANUARY 1993, #5. Feb. 1993, #6, & March 1993, #7. LIFE BEFORE LIFE, by Sarah Hinze, 1993.

 

[smaneck]

Another piece of spam, I see. And you ignored my previous question as to whether David was allowed more than one horse since the same passage says he shouldn't multiply his horses as well as his wives.

It is a matter of Bible record - David did not marry any of Saul's wives.

Sorry, your passage didn't say that. Here is Young's literal translation:

8 and I give to thee the house of thy lord, and the wives of thy lord, into thy bosom, and I give to thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if little, then I add to thee such and such [things].

Sorry, if your translation tried to gloss that over.
But nice try obscuring the fact the Bible never taught monogamy.

 

[smaneck]

Your whole response here is just gobbally gook, not much of a response at all,

Let's call it what it is. He's spamming.

 

[mmksparbud]

You realize that nowhere does the Bible insist on monogamy except for bishops and elders?

Except for bishops and elders?--let's just go with your premise--so then, what was JS? Not a bishop or an elder or a deacon? If he wasn't one, he never could be one. Neither could anyone else with more than one wife. So, where do the elders, deacons and bishops come from---won't come from anyone with more than one wife. I guess the rest of the peons will have to stay peons. And how many of your elders, bishops and deacons,( otherwise known as priests ) have more than one wife?

 

[mmksparbud]

Let's call it what it is. He's spamming.

What do you call spamming?---I always thought it was unwanted information---not false, just stuff you don't want to know about.

And for that matter--what exactly--do you all consider as the meaning of "pre-existence"? Existed before this earthly experience, or existed before creation itself? If preexisted before coming to earth, when did they first exist, --in other words, do you consider these pre-existing beings as having had a point where they did not exit, and now do, and what is that point, did God create them, or were they always there?

 

[smaneck]

Except for bishops and elders?--let's just go with your premise--so then, what was JS? Not a bishop or an elder or a deacon? If he wasn't one, he never could be one. Neither could anyone else with more than one wife. So, where do the elders, deacons and bishops come from---won't come from anyone with more than one wife. I guess the rest of the peons will have to stay peons. And how many of your elders, bishops and deacons,( otherwise known as priests ) have more than one wife?

None of my elders, bishops or deacons do. I'm not a Mormon or a Christian.