What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

[BobRyan]

Notice that the plates were supposedly just physical object -- no spiritual eye needed -- no up-in-sky angel or plates ... just objects.

========================

from: http://www.mrm.org/eleven-witnesses

There is no denying that Smith did have in his possession something that resembled what could be plates of some sort. However, whatever it was he had was kept from view, usually covered up with a cloth or placed in a box. Mormon historian Richard L. Bushman speaks of Smith’s father-in-law, Isaac Hale, who said, “I was allowed to feel the weight of the box and they gave me to understand, that the plates was then in the box – into which I was not allowed to look” (Joseph Smith – Rough Stone Rolling, p.63).

Bushman also notes that during the brief time Martin Harris was Smith’s scribe, a curtain was hung between Joseph and Martin “to prevent Harris from seeing the plates” (Rough Stone Rolling, p.66).

Hill records that William Smith said his father “never saw the plates except under a frock” (“Brodie Revisited,” Dialogue, Vol.7, No.4, p.84). William said, “In consequence of his vision, and his having the golden plates and refusing to show them, a great persecution arose against the whole family, and he was compelled to remove into Pennsylvania with the plates. He went on to say that his brother translated the plates using the “Urim and Thummim” placed in a hat, the plates were “lying nearby covered up” (A New Witness for Christ in America 2:416,417). This concurs with the description given by his sister-in-law Emma Smith.

Writes Bushman, “Emma said she sat at the same table with Joseph, writing as he dictated, with nothing between them, and the plates wrapped in a linen cloth on the table. When Cowdery took up the job of scribe, he and Joseph translated in the same room where Emma was working. Joseph looked into the seer stone, and the plates lay covered on the table” (Rough Stone Rolling, p.71).

 

[smaneck]

Apples and oranges - there is no case where the Christian church called the Apostles "liars"

Judas doesn't exactly make a good name for himself.

According to John Spalding, Solomon's brother, the plot of Manuscript, Found told "of the first settlers of America, endeavoring to show that the American Indians are the descendants of the Jews, or the lost tribes. It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem, by land and sea, till they arrived in America, under the command of Nephi and Lehi.

Hearsay evidence is mighty weak.

Spalding gave this as an affidavit to be published in Eber D. Howe's anti-Mormon book Mormonism Unvailed.[5]

So there was an agenda for his saying this?

Manuscript, Found was written "in scripture style of writing".

According to hearsay evidence, again?

Readers recalled its repetitive usage of phrases like "and it came to pass" or "now it came to pass"

LOL. That's a little like accusing someone of plagiarism for writing "Once upon a time."

, as well as the repeated phrase "I Nephi".

That would be more damning if there was actual manuscript evidence instead of hearsay.

In 1832, Latter Day Saint missionaries Samuel H. Smith and Orson Hyde visited Conneaut, Ohio, and preached from the Book of Mormon. Nehemiah King, a resident of Conneaut who knew Spalding when he lived there, felt that the Mormon text resembled the story written by Spalding years before.

So this was their first introduction to Mormonism? And Joseph Smith is supposed to have gotten a hold of the Spaulding manuscript, how?

In 1833, Spalding's brother John and seven other residents of Conneaut signed affidavits stating that Spalding had written a manuscript, portions of which were identical to the Book of Mormon.

But no one could come up with the manuscript.

These statements were published in E. D. Howe's 1834 book Mormonism Unvailed, in which the theory was presented that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from this manuscript.

Again, with an agenda in mind.

Several years later, Spalding's widow and daughter, other residents of Conneaut, and residents of Amity, Pennsylvania, also signed statements indicating that Spalding had authored a manuscript that was similar to the Book of Mormon.

Even Spaulding's wife and daughter had no copy of his manuscript?

"I well remember that he wrote in the old style, and commenced about every sentence with 'and it came to pass,' or 'now it came to pass,' the same as in the Book of Mormon,

Again, "one upon a time." Obvious plagiarism!

 

[BobRyan]

That is a dud - the big "three" witnesses were either called liars by the Mormon church in official publication or they claimed that they "did not actual see the physical plates with their real eyes" --

What is "odd" about the plate story is that the story claims that for years the plates were physically in a box in the house carried here or there and seen daily by family members with a cloth over it -- nobody but Joseph was allowed to actually see the plates during those years they were in the house physically - . Then when time to "show the plates" to the special three family members (After the text was supposedly completed -- translated) -- there was no going to the room with the supposedly golden plates and lifting the cloth to see the ancient text -- oh no! Rather there was going out in the woods and praying as a tiny group of 2 or 3 -- asking for an angel to appear in the sky so that they could see the plates up in the sky held by said angel. (And of course read by no one).

It is at this point the "witnesses" claim to see something with their "spiritual eye" but not their real physical eyes.

That is the sort of story that tells the reader exactly what is really going on.

What is odd is that ancient writings have been later found, some in stone boxes, & also evidences of the types of reformed Egyptian type characters have also been found too, some also written on gold plates. Plus, many more evidences for the Book of Mormon have been found, after its publication date of 1830.

I think you missed the point of the post - these were just "in a box" so there was no need for the hood-wink manipulation of the form "let's go out in the woods to see if an angel will show up in the sky and show us the plates in the sky" --- rather they could just walk in the house pick up the cloth off the top of the box and look. No need for con-man stuff about "can't see these normally with human eyes" -- all that fluff would not even be there were this legit.

None of that conman stuff shows up in the BoM itself as if this is how the prophets in the book were treating THEIR contemporaries -- fellow believers.

None of that conman stuff in the case of letters sent by Paul to the churches.

None of that conman stuff to this very day when it comes to the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Apples and oranges - there is no case where the Christian church called the Apostles "liars" yet that is what happens with the Mormon church and its own "witnesses".

Judas doesn't exactly make a good name for himself.

Indeed he does not - but neither indeed Christ say "believe whatever Judas says" in John 6 Jesus says "one of you is a demon" and at the last supper "he who dips the bread with me is the betrayer" - - Judas is constantly referred to as the one who betrayed Christ - not "one of the top 3 witnesses to Christ".

But in the case of the Mormon story - it is their "Three witnesses" still promoted to this very day - that they are calling liars or who simply say they saw "with their spiritual eye" -- when in fact other family members of Smith - say that whatever it was - was in a plain ol' box and if someone was going to pick up the cloth from the top and look - it would be a normal, natural (no Angel in the sky needed) sort of thing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Judas doesn't exactly make a good name for himself.

Hearsay evidence is mighty weak.

So there was an agenda for his saying this?

According to hearsay evidence, again?

LOL. That's a little like accusing someone of plagiarism for writing "Once upon a time."

That would be more damning if there was actual manuscript evidence instead of hearsay.

So this was their first introduction to Mormonism? And Joseph Smith is supposed to have gotten a hold of the Spaulding manuscript, how?

But no one could come up with the manuscript.

Again, with an agenda in mind.

Even Spaulding's wife and daughter had no copy of his manuscript?

Again, "one upon time." Obvious plagiarism!

None of the people you are dismissing above were accused of stealing horses, none of them taking other men's wives, none of them arrested for burning down a printing company/news-paper for daring to expose their exploits, none of them claiming that the "unvalidated claim to translate something is the Bible gift of prophecy". None of them making millions off of a fraudulent claim to have "translated something".

Having said - that you have free will. you can do as you wish.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[smaneck]

None of the people you are dismissing above were accused of stealing horses

Accusations are just that, accusations. Was anyone convicted of horse stealing? Ditto with accusations of plagiarism. I would never accused a student of plagiarism unless I could produce the work they plagiarized from. In this case, that can't be done.

none of them claiming that the "unvalidated claim to translate something is the Bible gift of prophecy".

I don't recall there saying that. What I do recall is your misrepresenting what I said to mean that.

None of them making millions off of a fraudulent claim to have "translated something".

Was Joseph Smith a millionaire when he died? How much did the author of Mormonism Unveiled make off of his book?

So far the only strong argument I've seen you make is the way in which polygamy is condemned in principle in the Book of Mormon. Now I realize that the main Mormon group no longer practices it, but I'm under the impression they still approve of it in principle. So I'm wondering how they explain this?

 

[fatboys]

Accusations are just that, accusations. Was anyone convicted of horse stealing? Ditto with accusations of plagiarism. I would never accused a student of plagiarism unless I could produce the work they plagiarized from. In this case, that can't be done.



I don't recall there saying that. What I do recall is your misrepresenting what I said to mean that.



Was Joseph Smith a millionaire when he died? How much did the author of Mormonism Unveiled make off of his book?

So far the only strong argument I've seen you make is the way in which polygamy is condemned in principle in the Book of Mormon. Now I realize that the main Mormon group no longer practices it, but I'm under the impression they still approve of it in principle. So I'm wondering how they explain this?

It is an abomination when it is not sanctioned by God. It is condemned in the Book of Mormon because they were abusing it just as David did after God Had given him many wives and concubines. He still needed not only more but committed murder to have her. What did Solomon do? Took women that were Gentiles. A big no no

 

[Ironhold]

I would think under those circumstances she would have resigned on her own.

...which is why I'm immediately suspicious as to whether or not there's a lot more to the story.

You see, it's an alarmingly common bit for critics of the church to claim that "I used to be Mormon, but I got ex'd for some stupid reason / saved out of the church" when they either [1] never were members of the church in the first place or [2] were kicked out for legitimate malfeasance.

For example, professional author J. Edward Decker made the claim that he was "saved" out of the church, but his ex-wife claims that he was excommunicated for serial adultery.

 

[Ironhold]

Book of Mormon says this -


Book of Mormon condemns Polygamy BOM Jacob:

Jacob 2:30 - For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Now, mind explaining why you oh so conveniently decided to not cite the one verse in that passage which was inconvenient to your argument?

Whether you meant to or not, you were being deceptive by doing what you did.

 

[Ironhold]

So there was an agenda for his saying this?

If you'll note, the citation referenced the work "Mormonism Unveiled".

Howe was not the author of the book, but the publisher. The actual author was Philastus Hurlbut, a violent alcoholic whose reputation even among non-Mormons was such that nobody would have bought the book if he was recognized as the author. Hurlbut had an axe to grind against Joseph Smith, and on at least one occasion made a public threat against Smith's life.

It's been alleged that Hurlbut gave people who were semi-literate or even illiterate at best false affidavits for them to sign, knowing that they'd trust him about what the content was because they couldn't read them for themselves.

 

[Ironhold]

none of them arrested for burning down a printing company/news-paper for daring to expose their exploits,

Illinois Common Law allowed city governments to shut down "nuisance" printing presses, which is what the Nauvoo City Council ordered the mayor - Joseph Smith - to do. But whereas the city council simply called for the seizure of the printing press, somewhere between Smith and the bailiff the orders were fouled; the press wound up being smashed instead of seized.

So what took place wasn't as shockingly illegal as most critics of the church would like for people to believe.

 

[mmksparbud]

Jacob 2:30 - For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Now, mind explaining why you oh so conveniently decided to not cite the one verse in that passage which was inconvenient to your argument?

Whether you meant to or not, you were being deceptive by doing what you did.

If that is what is being used to legitimize polygamy "if needed"--is there more to this quote? 'Cause that says if God wills, He can command His people to raise up seed--does something else state that He needs polygamy to do it?---He hadn't asked Abraham to go to another for children besides Sarah. They did that on their own and ended up having to kick both out and the middle east has been at war ever since. He didn't need another wife for Abraham to raise up seed.

Thou shalt not commit adultery---unless I command you to sin. (?!!)

 

[RestoredGospelEvidences]

Apples and oranges - there is no case where the Christian church called the Apostles "liars" yet that is what happens with the Mormon church and its own "witnesses".

There is some documentation on the point that Smith took other LDS men's wives as his wife - after HE comes up with an english text that says this is an abomination to have more than one wife - let alone to have that other wife be the wife of another man "as well".

The unethical nature of Smith - raises a red flag, his reluctance to let anyone see the original text, his insistance that not even Mormons should see it, ..... The fact that those connected with Spalding seem to be certain about the match - raises the question.

Nothing of that sort is connected to the Bible -!

So then it is "reasonable" to consider the connection to be a distinct possibility.

==================================== quote

from; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Spalding

Manuscript, Found

Around 1812, Spaulding completed a historical romance entitled Manuscript, Found which "purported to have been a record found buried in the earth".[5] Both the LDS Church and RLDS Church transcripts of Manuscript Story equate Manuscript, Found with Manuscript Story.[6][7]

Spaulding moved to Pittsburgh and reportedly took Manuscript, Found to the publisher Patterson & Lambdin. Spaulding died in 1816,[8] never having published Manuscript, Found.

Evidence of contents

Plot

According to John Spalding, Solomon's brother, the plot of Manuscript, Found told "of the first settlers of America, endeavoring to show that the American Indians are the descendants of the Jews, or the lost tribes. It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem, by land and sea, till they arrived in America, under the command of Nephi and Lehi. They afterwards had quarrels and contentions, and separated into two distinct nations, one of which he denominated Nephites and the other Lamanites. Cruel and bloody wars ensued, in which great multitudes were slain. They buried their dead in large heaps, which caused the mounds so common in this country." Spalding gave this as an affidavit to be published in Eber D. Howe's anti-Mormon book Mormonism Unvailed.[5]

Phraseology

Manuscript, Found was written "in scripture style of writing". Readers recalled its repetitive usage of phrases like "and it came to pass" or "now it came to pass", as well as the repeated phrase "I Nephi".[9]
...

In 1832, Latter Day Saint missionaries Samuel H. Smith and Orson Hyde visited Conneaut, Ohio, and preached from the Book of Mormon. Nehemiah King, a resident of Conneaut who knew Spalding when he lived there, felt that the Mormon text resembled the story written by Spalding years before. In 1833, Spalding's brother John and seven other residents of Conneaut signed affidavits stating that Spalding had written a manuscript, portions of which were identical to the Book of Mormon. These statements were published in E. D. Howe's 1834 book Mormonism Unvailed, in which the theory was presented that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from this manuscript. Several years later, Spalding's widow and daughter, other residents of Conneaut, and residents of Amity, Pennsylvania, also signed statements indicating that Spalding had authored a manuscript that was similar to the Book of Mormon.

"I well remember that he wrote in the old style, and commenced about every sentence with 'and it came to pass,' or 'now it came to pass,' the same as in the Book of Mormon, and according to the best of my recollection and belief, it is the same as my brother Solomon wrote, with the exception of the religious matter."[citation needed]

In 1927, however, Professor Azariah S. Root, who had headed the library at Oberlin College, wrote a letter regarding the origins of the Spalding Manuscript and how it relates to the Book of Mormon. In it he states that the Spalding document to which he had access, Manuscript Story, "seems pretty clearly not to have been the manuscript from which the Book of Mormon was written". Root did not have in his possession Spalding's Manuscript, Found; he stated that Manuscript Story "does not seem to throw very much light" on the question of whether Manuscript, Found was used as a basis for the Book of Mormon.[3]

BobRyab claimed: No place where the Christian church called the Apostles "liars"? Just Christ foretelling some of his aposles would lie about knowing him. But you must be "borrowing" from the Atheists' & early anti-Christians again, to bring up human weaknesses as "evidence." Like how the Apostles lied when they said they knew not Christ, when under persecutions, when Christ was in trouble, they denied him. Things like that, the early anti-Christians loved to bring up. Stop borrowing from the early critics! Come on, come up with an original tactics of rejecting the prophets of your day in time, rather than borrow from earlier tactics as to why Christ & his apostles & prophets were rejected during early anti-Christian times. So, you also refuse, or can't deal with coming up with an answer to the same types of charges of "borrowing" as brought up by early to later anti-Christians.

Also, you keep attempting to make it sound like Joseph Smith is expected to be perfect in order to qualify as being a prophet or scriptural writer. I still see David's Psalms in most Christians bibles, despite his polig., fragging, running around naked & womenizings weaknesses. Your borrowed anti-Christian-Atheistic logic & tactics would have us rejecting biblical prophets for their weaknesses, etc. Drunk Noah, (Gen. 9:20-22), Lying prophet, (Gen. 12:18-20). Polig. wife mistreating other wife (Gen. 16:1-6). Drunken incest, (Gen. 19:31-36). Prophet treating his slaves harshly, (Gen. 21:6-16). Attempted human sacrifice, (Gen. 22). Onanism (Gen. 38:9-10). Many other examples could be mentioned, which are like your tactics used against Mormonism, which parallel early anti-Christian writings, & Atheistic, as if you borrowed from them.

It's what is missing in the Spaulding theory, the "Manuscript Found" that shows that Joseph Smith or others mentioned by critics, couldn't have used it for a source for coming up with the Book of Mormon. There is not enough in it to make any claims that there were things to "borrow" from it. There's no mention on Book of Mormon names, Christ visit to the ancient Americas, the doctrine of the 2 ways, clear references & used of color garment symbolism, money systems that name the pieces of different metals or measures of weights used, reformed Egyptian, etc., etc., in "the Manuscript Found"!

If Solomon Spalding "Manuscript Found" was the source for the Book of Mormon:

Where is the casting of lots, to see who gets to go after the brass plates? (1 Nephi 3:11).

Where are themes to the pre-existence, council in heaven, & sode experiences? (1 Nephi 1:8-11; LeGrand L. Baker, Prof. Stephen D. Ricks, Who Shall Ascend Into the Hill of the Lord? The Psalms In Israel's Temple Worship In the Old Testament & In The Book of Mormon, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Eborn Books, 2009), 55, 139-47, 459-755).

Where is the mention of writings that use Egyptian characters to write Hebrew thoughts? (1 Nephi 1:2). Or the learning of the Jews & language of the Egyptians?

Where is the ancient writings methods, of writing on different types of metal plates?

There are many more examples of things found in the book of Mormon that are not found in "the Manuscript Found".

 

[RestoredGospelEvidences]

Evidence?

Evidence that earlier Jews used Egyptian characters to write old Hebrew? You're looking at it & reading some evidence right now. English has its roots that goes back to Demotic Egyptian. English goes back to Latin, which goes back to Phoenician, which goes back to demotic Egyptian scripts, which is a short hand of Hieratic Egyptian, which was a short hand of hieroglyphics picture types of Egyptian writing. In other words, the hieroglyphics were changed, altered & reformed into Hieratic, the Hieratic was further changed into demotic. The Phoenicians, ship builders & mariners, took the script to other parts of the Old World, & which became the alphabet used by many nations in their own ways, changing it even further, according to their own languages & own uses. Coptic would be another example of a "reformed" Egyptian.

Here is evidence that some of the Israelite about 600-598 B.C., (Book of Mormon times), had used a form of writing that had Egyptian influences in it. For example, "...in the royal administration of both Judah & Israel (Samaria), hieratic numerals were used, striking new evidence for the influence of Egyptian prototypes in the Israelite administration." (The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol.31, Feb. 1968, No.1, p.12-15, fig.9 & 10, see also n.5 on p.15, Basor No.184, (Dec., 1966), p.13-19, Pub. by The American Schools of Oriental Research, Jer. & Bagdad).

Different types of metals were also written on in ancient times too, just as the Book of Mormon claims.

A.S. Yahuda, The Language of the Pentateuch in Its Relationship to Egyptian, p. 35-6.

Biblical Archaeology Review, Vol.16, #3. May/June 1990, p.448-9, article entitled: Six Fingers & Toes, Polydactylism in the Ancient World, by Richard D. Barnett.

Hubert Grimme, Prof. of Semitic Language at Munster Un. pub. in "Althebraische Inschriften vom Sinai," A. Churchward, The Origin & Evolution of Religion, 1924. Also: E.A.W. Budge, Papyrus of Ani, N.Y., Putman, 1913, Vol.I, p.50; Th. Noeldeke, Die Semitischen Sprachen, Leipzig, 1899, p.34. Ed. Meyer, Geschichte des Altertums, 1927, I, 2. p.297; and Wm.F. Albright, The Vocalization of Egyptian Syllabic Orthography, New Haven: Am. Or. Soc. 1934.

The World's Oldest Writings, by Henry James Reynolds, M.D., 1938, Pub. The Antiquities Corp., Chicago, p.28-33, fig.5, 6, 7, & 8.

Ariel L. Crowley, "Anthon Transcript" with demotic characters. In the 1940s, Crowley's comparison was published in: The Improvement Era, Vol.45 #1, Jan. 1942, pp.14-15, 58-61; Feb. 1942, pp.76-80, 124-5; Vol.45, #3, March 1942, pp.150-1, 182-3; Vol.47, 9, Sept. 1944, pp.542-3, 576-83. And in later publications, see: The Improvement Era, Vol. 55, #9, Sept. 1952, pages 644-645, see the article entitled: The Anthon Transcript and the Maya Glyphs, by Ariel L. Crowley. And: "About The Book of Mormon," by Ariel L. Crowley, 1961, Deseret News Press, pp.5-59.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyab claimed: No place where the Christian church called the Apostles "liars"? Just Christ foretelling some of his aposles would lie about knowing him. But you must be "borrowing" from the Atheists' & early anti-Christians again, to bring up human weaknesses as "evidence." .

j

The Mormon church claims -- on the BoM today "here are the Three Witnesses" - and they claim we should believe whatever these 3 witnesses say. Then after those three signed that statement of what they saw - the Mormons publish statements that they are "Liars" or they themselves publish statements that they "saw with spiritual eyes" what normal mortal eyes could not see. EVEN though the "box of plates" is claimed to have been visible to any Sally or Fred that happen to be in the room.

The whole thing looks like conn artistry -and we have nothing in like it in Christianity when it comes to the Bible.

However - my point in bringing up the Solomon Spalding source of the document is not the dishonesty and conn-man method this would consistently show for Smith - rather it is the point that because of that "source" - there is very little if any Mormon doctrine in that text. Rather it is what you would expect of an Anabaptist living in the late 1700's, early 1800's. And that fact is difficult to cover up with after-the-fact documents and stories.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Illinois Common Law allowed city governments to shut down "nuisance" printing presses, which is what the Nauvoo City Council ordered the mayor - Joseph Smith - to do. But whereas the city council simply called for the seizure of the printing press, somewhere between Smith and the bailiff the orders were fouled; the press wound up being smashed instead of seized.

So what took place wasn't as shockingly illegal as most critics of the church would like for people to believe.

The argument that smashing the press should they happen to print an article about Smith's polygamy - "as if that is ok and normal" - is right out of communist third world hand-book.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It is an abomination when it is not sanctioned by God. It is condemned in the Book of Mormon because they were abusing it just as David did after God Had given him many wives and concubines. He still needed not only more but committed murder to have her. What did Solomon do? Took women that were Gentiles. A big no no

None of that is mentioned in Jacob 2 or in Jacob 1-- in the BoM. In the BoM it is "wicked" to do it all. In the BoM it does not say "It is wicked and an abomination unless I tell you to do it".

In fact God never says that. "It is wicked to covet unless I tell you to covet" or "It is wicked to worship false gods unless I tell you to worship false gods" -- Even Jacob 2 does not say that.

Jacob 1 and 2 call polygamy whoredom, and adultery without any reference at all to "only if you kill thus husband - such as Uriah the Hitite while doing it" - no such qualifier in the text.

Isaiah 8 "If they speak not according to the Law and the Testimony there is no light in them".

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were so".

Gal 1:6-9 "Though WE (Apostles) or an Angel from heaven should preach to you another Gospel - let him be accursed".

Mark 7:6-13 "In vain do they worship Me...setting aside the Commandment of God for the sake of Commandments of men"

 

[smaneck]

Jacob 2:30 - For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Now, mind explaining why you oh so conveniently decided to not cite the one verse in that passage which was inconvenient to your argument?

Whether you meant to or not, you were being deceptive by doing what you did.

So what is the 'ideal' in Mormonism, monogamy or polygamy?

 

[smaneck]

Evidence that earlier Jews used Egyptian characters to write old Hebrew?

More specifically, this 'reformed Egyptian' written on gold plates.

You're looking at it & reading some evidence right now. English has its roots that goes back to Demotic Egyptian. English goes back to Latin, which goes back to Phoenician, which goes back to demotic Egyptian scripts, which is a short hand of Hieratic Egyptian, which was a short hand of hieroglyphics picture types of Egyptian writing. In other words, the hieroglyphics were changed, altered & reformed into Hieratic, the Hieratic was further changed into demotic. The Phoenicians, ship builders & mariners, took the script to other parts of the Old World, & which became the alphabet used by many nations in their own ways, changing it even further, according to their own languages & own uses. Coptic would be another example of a "reformed" Egyptian.

So you consider virtually any written language aside from Cuneiform or Chinese to be "Reformed Egyptian?" Then if we find a gold plate written in English you will consider it evidence of Smith's claim? Not very persuasive.

Here is evidence that some of the Israelite about 600-598 B.C., (Book of Mormon times), had used a form of writing that had Egyptian influences in it. For example, "...in the royal administration of both Judah & Israel (Samaria), hieratic numerals were used, striking new evidence for the influence of Egyptian prototypes in the Israelite administration."

Isn't that a bit like arguing that because we are using Arabic numerals therefore we are writing in "Reformed Arabic"?

Different types of metals were also written on in ancient times too, just as the Book of Mormon claims.

Yeah, I'm looking specifically for an Israeli text written Reformed Egyptian a gold plate. Can you give me evidence of that?

 

[BobRyan]

Book of Mormon says this -


Book of Mormon condemns Polygamy BOM Jacob:

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Jacob 2:24-28

[23] But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
[27] Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
[28] For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
[29] Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

The text goes on to speak of the grief and heart ache this caused even in David's time and how doing likewise causes pain and a curse.


[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.



I am going with the above quote as the citation.

[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

So what is the 'ideal' in Mormonism, monogamy or polygamy?

I find that question "interesting" given those statements from the BoM. The BoM claims to be a story about Jews that came to the Americas and the reason given in the text - is that polygamy was such an abomination God would not have them on the same CONTINENT with such a people.

in Christ,

Bob