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What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

zelosravioli

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True Chet, God could and did manifest Himself as a man, nothing would logically prevent an amazing God who creates everything, from indwelling or revealling Himself in a created form or a body of a human. He did this numerous times, it is understood that God indwelt a body He 'made'. At the same time god did this He also said he is not a man as we are. We understand that God can take a form, a column of fire, a burning bush, out of a wind, etc. Moses asked of God to reveal Himself and God explained that no man can see Him because He is invisible, and He is Great, and He is terrifying, and He is a Spirit.
 
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Norah63

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and so we as mere mortals can comprehend truth because God tells us we can. therefore i comprehend the truth in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, and all scriptures,
inspired to me by the Holy Spirit of all truth. Therefore there is nothing bad about i. Books arent bad, but hearts can be hard.
 
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ChetSinger

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True Chet, God could and did manifest Himself as a man, nothing would logically prevent an amazing God who creates everything, from indwelling or revealling Himself in a created form or a body of a human. He did this numerous times, it is understood that God indwelt a body He 'made'. At the same time god did this He also said he is not a man as we are. We understand that God can take a form, a column of fire, a burning bush, out of a wind, etc. Moses asked of God to reveal Himself and God explained that no man can see Him because He is invisible, and He is Great, and He is terrifying, and He is a Spirit.
Amen.
 
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smaneck

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'It seems to
me that what you guys are doing is similar to dredging up what some Pope said in the 14th century and holding it up as what the Catholic Church really believes' (Smaneck)
The difference is that the whole idea of the Mormon Church stands upon Joseph being a Biblical prophet (As Islam demands that Muhammad is the true Prophet, it all stands on that question). And Josephs doctrine demands that the Mormon Church always has a Biblical office of Prophet as it's leader. This applies to Brigham especially, the second Mormon Prophet. We are not talking of just someone 'associated' with the LDS church later on down the line, Joseph is the foundation to Mormonism, you can't have it without Joseph (That would be like Christianity without Jesus, it all stands, or falls, with Him).

Joseph Smith and Bringham Young may well be considered prophets, but LDS conception of prophethood (unlike Islam or the Baha'i Faith) does not mean that everything they say or do is considered a 'revelation.' That's the problem with the sources evangelicals are using to discredit the LDS. They are treating them as canonical doctrinal sources whereas Mormons do not.

The Gospels are a testimony, or record, of who Jesus was, what He taught, what He was like, etc. We can then access His character from the record. The history of the LDS church, and the Journal of Discources are the record of Joe and Brigham, where we can read about 'them'.

Here is the difference. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are not the equivalent to Jesus Christ in Mormonism. The Bible places its emphasis on Jesus' character because He, in His own Person, is the Word of God. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, on the other hand, are said to merely receive revelations of God's word. Therefore it is only those revelations and not their persons which are important. Now one might very well consider the character of these two men when judging the validity of their claims, but unlike Christ, not everything they say or do is considered an example for Muslims to follow.

(You seem very sincere, so I appreciate your responses as genuine. Don't think I am just trying to argue, just relay what I have learned)

Mind you, I'm not a Mormon. I don't believe Joseph Smith and Bringham Young were prophets. I just object to the fact that evangelicals are coming to this the World Religion forum merely to debunk the LDS rather than to share with them and better understand their beliefs. The latter is supposed to be the purpose of this forum, not the former.
 
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Ironhold

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Gosh, I don't remember. 1977 was a really long time ago. It had to do with the King Follett's sermon. The historical notes I read in one resource indicated that there were numerous people recording the sermon and those notes were put together.

The "transcript" of the KFD I picked up about a decade ago noted that no two sets of notes completely agreed with each other.

As such, even the best "transcripts" we have are the result of people comparing and contrasting what each individual sets of notes had to say and then going from there.

Hence why the KFD was never even put forward for canonization back in the day: there was no one single "official" account of what Joseph Smith said, and if JS himself made any notes they've not been recovered.
 
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smaneck

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Hello. This has long been an interesting subject for me.

You're right, the God of the OT sometimes appears as a man. And sometimes not. Judaism up through the time of Jesus (at least until sometime in the 2nd century AD) had no problem with this duality.

One need not project Jesus back into these stories to explain them. I don't think it is an accident that God's physical appearances are largely limited to Genesis. The anthropomorphism of the early Hebrew religion disappears in the later scriptures, as far as His physicality goes. But in one aspect He remains quite 'human'. Deutero-Isaiah which was written towards the end of the Babylonian Captivity depicts a God who goes into exile with His people and who suffers with and for them. In that sense, it does presage Christianity.
 
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BigDaddy4

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You covered it well. You also have to remember the place and the times. They needed inspiration and motivation to survive. Brigham young said his problem was that he taught to much. I agree
And there you have it. BY did teach these things, even if they weren't later "canonized" into Scripture. And, remembering "the place and the times", people believed him. Why wouldn't they? He was their "prophet, seer, and revelator" was he not?
 
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BigDaddy4

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I think you may need to look up the word 'canonical' if you think something found on a religious organization's website makes it scripture.
I think you need to understand the conversation.
 
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ChetSinger

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One need not project Jesus back into these stories to explain them.
I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was trying to do the opposite, by sharing that pre-Christian rabbis had already made a framework for explaining those appearances: the Word of YHWH as a physical manifestation of YHWH.

I don't think it is an accident that God's physical appearances are largely limited to Genesis. The anthropomorphism of the early Hebrew religion disappears in the later scriptures, as far as His physicality goes.
It becomes less common, but appears as late as Daniel. The "Son of Man" passage in Daniel 7 was by Jesus' time widely considered to be a human yet divine figure, one of the "two powers in heaven". It was Jesus' application of that passage to himself that immediately ended his trial with a conviction of blasphemy. That Jewish belief was declared heretical in the 2nd century CE after the rise of Christianity.

If you're interested, a widely-respected book on the subject is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-He...32226500&sr=1-1&keywords=two+powers+in+heaven
 
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BigDaddy4

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"Origin of Burnt Sacrifices.

Only a part of the whole was at first offered; otherwise there would have been no sacrificial feast, no communion with the Divinity. But what should be chosen as the offering? and how should it be rendered? The Deity, being invisible, would be most suitably entertained by a more ethereal form of nourishment than solid food. Hence arose the custom of burning certain portions of the animal offerings or materials of the feast. The most appropriate of all were the fatty parts of the animal, which in general among ancient peoples, as among the Hebrews, were consumed by fire, while the remainder of the flesh was eaten by the human participants. This was the "zebaḥ," the fundamental animal offering."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3847-burnt-offering

As for the Jews 'owing it to Yahweh':

Leviticus 25:

55 For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am Jehovah your God.

Numbers 15:

41 I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am Jehovah your God.

Still funny. None of what you posted supports your claim that God requires burnt offerings because that's the way gods ate, nor does it support your claim that the reason the Hebrews worshipped God was because they "owe it to him". It's just your misguided and incorrect opinion of what you think it means.
 
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zelosravioli

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(You guys are quick, I had not even finished my post above) ... Moses asked of God to reveal Himself and God explained that no man can see Him because He is invisible, and He is Great, and He is terrifying, and He is a Spirit. The God of scripture said He is totally unlike and un-comparable to anything in creation. He said He is unfathomable and incomprehensible to us, yet God said He 'would' describe and reveal Himself to us, but of course He has to use language from within creation to describe Himself, as that is all we can understand. He not only uses anthropomorphic terms, but uses illustrations from nature to describe Himself: lion, bear, bird, wind, fire, thunder, water, light, rock, heaven, sanctuary, fortress, shield, snare, wreath, shelter, strong tower, etc. etc. But He also makes the point that He is not to be thought of as physically being these things. The book of Job has this very same reasoning, and Job it seems predates the books from Moses.
In Job, God totally ridicules the idea of anything anywhere being compared to the one who stretched out the heavens and all creation:
“Can you lead forth a constellation in its season, and guide the Bear with her satellites? “Do you know the ordinances of the heavens, Or fix their rule over the earth?
As early as Exodus God ridicules the idea of other gods and challenges the idea openly (this makes the Hebrew God unique to other gods also):
"Tomorrow," Pharaoh said. Moses replied, "It will be as you say, so that you may know there is no one like the LORD our God (Exodus 8:10)
"Who is like You among the gods, O LORD? Who is like You, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders? (Exodus 15:11)
'You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully' (Deuteronomy 4:15)
'To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike?' (Isaiah 46:5)

This is not the God of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or Mormonism.

Or the multiple gods of Mormonism. Where a man became god, and where men also can become gods. The God of Scripture creates men, and became a man, or more precisely: it says He made Himself a tabernacle, and 'came from above' in-carnate. This describes the invisible God preparing a body of flesh for Himself to live in and die, this is the opposite of a man becoming a god as Mormonism teaches.

'Here is the difference. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are not the equivalent to Jesus Christ in Mormonism. The Bible places its emphasis on Jesus' character because He, in His own Person, is the Word of God. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, on the other hand, are said to merely receive revelations of God's word' (Smaneck #426)
Even Moses as well as the other Prophets, including Jesus, were revealing the nature of God, that's what a Prophet does. We don't 'assume' Jesus is divine just because he said he was, we have to consider if what he said lines up with what the believable prophets in His line prior to him said, they have to agree. You have to put yourself in the context, many claimed divinity, but did it match the previous revelation, especially the ones concerning the promised Messiah. Yes Jesus was a Prophet, and if what he said did not agree with what I would first believe is the foundation of Gods revelation, than there would be no reason to believe Jesus either. understand that if Jesus just showed up without the foundation of the prophets that preceded Him, they would not know what on earth he was trying to say or be. Jesus used Moses and the Prophets of scripture to identify and verify Himself, exclusively.

If Gods Prophets say completely crazy things about God, teaching exactly the opposite of what has already been given, and then tell us they are correctly giving us revelation, even restoring lost revelation, even correcting everyone else, saying everyone else is wrong, including the Bible itself. Tell me again, that doesn't make a difference in what might be true or not??

Remember 'evangelicals' did not start this conversation, Joseph Smith came out of box declaring:

'My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight .... He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith - History 1:18-20)

This reminds me of how the Mormon default is always 'the anti-mormons say this and this'. I am not anti Mormon any more than I am anti Jewish or anti-Hindu, or whatever. Same for all apologists, I would not even declare Jewish or Islamic apologists as anti-christian. We are hopefully communicating our defense, best reasons to believe, and practicing the right to research and access to information, in a free system. If there is slander it should be exposed as such, manipulation and dishonesty, should also be exposed. As Orson said:

'The Book of Mormon claims to be a divinely inspired record, written by a succession of prophets who inhabited ancient America. It professes to be revealed to the present generation for the salvation of all who will receive it, and for the overthrow and damnation of all nations who reject it.
This book must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man, affecting both the temporal and eternal interests of every people under heaven to the same extent and in the same degree that the message of Noah affected the inhabitants of the old world. If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth until they are plunged with their families into hopeless despair. The nature of the message in the Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it. Therefore, every soul in all the world is equally interested in ascertaining its truth or falsity.
In a matter of such infinite importance no person should rest satisfied with the conjectures or opinions of others: he should use every exertion himself to become acquainted with the nature of the message: he should carefully examine the evidences of which it is offered to the world: he should, with all patience and perseverance, seek to acquire a certain knowledge whether it be of God or not. Without such an investigation in the most careful, candid, and impartial manner, he cannot safely judge without greatly harming his future and eternal welfare. If, after a rigid examination, it be found an imposition, should be extensively published to the world as such; the evidences and arguments upon which the imposture was detected, should be clearly and logically stated, that those who have been sincerely yet unfortunately deceived, may perceive the nature of the deception, and be reclaimed, and that those who continue to publish the delusion, may be exposed and silenced, not by physical force, neither by persecutions, bare assertions, nor ridicule, but by strong and powerful arguments--by evidences adduced from scripture and reason. Such, and such only, should be the weapons employed to detect and overthrow false doctrines--to reclaim mankind from their errors, to expose religious enthusiasm, and put to silence base and wicked impostors.
But on the other hand, if investigation should prove the Book of Mormon true and of divine origin, then the importance of the message is so great, and the consequences of receiving or rejecting it so overwhelming, that the various nations--to whom it is now sent, and in whose languages it is now published, (being the first in these latter times who have been so highly favored as to receive a preparatory message for the second advent of the Son of God,) should speedily repent of all their sins, and renounce all the wicked traditions of their fathers, as they are imperatively commanded to do in the message: they should utterly reject both the Popish and Protestant ministry, together with all the churches which have been built up by them or that have sprung from them, as being entirely destitute of authority; they should turn away from all the priestcrafts and abominations practiced by these apostate churches (falsely called Christian), and bring forth fruits meet for repentance in all things: they should be immersed in water by one having authority, and receive a remission of their sins, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

(Orson Pratt, 1811-1881, DIVINE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BOOK OF MORMON)

If you want to scold anyone who contests others ideas or statements concerning what is right or wrong, I would start with Jesus and God Himself...
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to' (Jesus)
 
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smaneck

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It becomes less common, but appears as late as Daniel. The "Son of Man" passage in Daniel 7 was by Jesus' time widely considered to be a human yet divine figure, one of the "two powers in heaven". It was Jesus' application of that passage to himself that immediately ended his trial with a conviction of blasphemy. That Jewish belief was declared heretical in the 2nd century CE after the rise of Christianity.

I'll grant you that the Son of Man figure in Daniel is clearly supernatural but I don't see it having anything to do with the physicality of early conceptions of Yahweh. And Jesus was not convicted of blasphemy. If he were they would have stoned him to death. He was crucified on charges of treason for claiming to be the King of the Jews. I do grant you that Jesus was not being humble when he referred to himself as the Son of Man.

If you're interested, a widely-respected book on the subject is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-He...32226500&sr=1-1&keywords=two+powers+in+heaven

He is a reputable scholar. I may check him out.
 
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smaneck

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[QUOTE="zelosravioli, post: 67541046, member: 348600"

'Here is the difference. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are not the equivalent to Jesus Christ in Mormonism. The Bible places its emphasis on Jesus' character because He, in His own Person, is the Word of God. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, on the other hand, are said to merely receive revelations of God's word' (Smaneck #426)
Even Moses as well as the other Prophets, including Jesus, were revealing the nature of God, that's what a Prophet does. We don't 'assume' Jesus is divine just because he said he was, we have to consider if what he said lines up with what the believable prophets in His line prior to him said, they have to agree.[/QUOTE]

Except they don't all that much. But this is topic for another thread.

You have to put yourself in the context, many claimed divinity, but did it match the previous revelation, especially the ones concerning the promised Messiah.

The ones concerning the Messiah generally depicted him as a five-star general who would restore Israel's independence and sit on David's throne. Truth is, as Reinhold Niebuhr put it: "The Messiah who comes is never the one expected."

Yes Jesus was a Prophet, and if what he said did not agree with what I would first believe is the foundation of Gods revelation, than there would be no reason to believe Jesus either. understand that if Jesus just showed up without the foundation of the prophets that preceded Him, they would not know what on earth he was trying to say or be. Jesus used Moses and the Prophets of scripture to identify and verify Himself, exclusively.

Certainly prophecy serves as bridge between one religion and the next, but there is a lot of reinterpretation of scripture going on to make that happen.


If Gods Prophets say completely crazy things about God, teaching exactly the opposite of what has already been given, and then tell us they are correctly giving us revelation, even restoring lost revelation, even correcting everyone else, saying everyone else is wrong, including the Bible itself. Tell me again, that doesn't make a difference in what might be true or not??

Remember 'evangelicals' did not start this conversation, Joseph Smith came out of box declaring:

'My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight .... He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith - History 1:18-20)

You know what? Joseph Smith isn't here and I don't think it is any excuse for the way Mormons are treated here.

If you want to scold anyone who contests others ideas or statements concerning what is right or wrong, I would start with Jesus and God Himself...
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to' (Jesus)

Jesus spoke truth to power. He didn't bully the minorities in his midst.
 
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smaneck

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Still funny. None of what you posted supports your claim that God requires burnt offerings because that's the way gods ate, nor does it support your claim that the reason the Hebrews worshipped God was because they "owe it to him". It's just your misguided and incorrect opinion of what you think it means.

In other words, you really have no counter argument.
 
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If Gods Prophets say completely crazy things about God, teaching exactly the opposite of what has already been given, and then tell us they are correctly giving us revelation, even restoring lost revelation, even correcting everyone else, saying everyone else is wrong, including the Bible itself. Tell me again, that doesn't make a difference in what might be true or not??

You know what? Joseph Smith isn't here and I don't think it is any excuse for the way Mormons are treated here.

Jesus spoke truth to power. He didn't bully the minorities in his midst.

Cults come and go. Jesus did not bully minorities, He condemned false prophets.
 
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smaneck

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Cults come and go. Jesus did not bully minorities, He condemned false prophets.

Referring to other people's religion as a 'cult' is degrading, belittling and mocking. Jesus warned people about false prophets, he condemned pharisees and by that I don't mean rabbis.

 
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Referring to other people's religion as a 'cult' is degrading, belittling and mocking. Jesus warned people about false prophets, he condemned pharisees and by that I don't mean rabbis.
So can I not label charles manson a cult leader?
 
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BigDaddy4

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In other words, you really have no counter argument.
Correct. There is no reason to counter an argument of your unsupported claim. When you decide to actually support your claim, I may or may not choose to provide a counter argument or additional comments.
 
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zelosravioli

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You know what? Joseph Smith isn't here and I don't think it is any excuse for the way Mormons are treated here.
I don't think dialog about facts should be regarded as 'treating' some one bad. The OP was a question, the question was not: What's so 'right' about the Book of Mormon? No one has to read this thread if they don't want to, I'm sure there is a thread where scripture or history doesn't matter to anyone. I don't think it is fair to say 'whatever' one thinks things are without allowing a question, of being contested as to their truth. That is neither wise, and sometimes very dangerous in many ways.
 
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smaneck

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You know what? Joseph Smith isn't here and I don't think it is any excuse for the way Mormons are treated here.
I don't think dialog about facts should be regarded as 'treating' some one bad. The OP was a question, the question was not: What's so 'right' about the Book of Mormon? No one has to read this thread if they don't want to, I'm sure there is a thread where scripture or history doesn't matter to anyone. I don't think it is fair to say 'whatever' one thinks things are without allowing a question, of being contested as to their truth. That is neither wise, and sometimes very dangerous in many ways.

So why has there been so little discussion of the Book of Mormon itself if that is the OP?
 
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