What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

Aryeh Jay · May 12, 2015

Theway said:
Does that mean as a gentile I can become a Rabbi if I choose?

It would be possible, but would require a conversion to Judaism.

Ironhold · May 12, 2015

Cody2 said:
He was raised by strange parents that were involved in occult activities.

[citation needed]

He put his "calling" on hold for three years.

No further visitations were received for three years. There's a difference.

Mormon had been dead for about 1400 years.

And?

Most of this information can be read in the "Pearl of Great Price" written by Joseph Smith.

Specifically, Joseph Smith - History.

The Book of Mormon was supposedly in the ground many centuries before the King James Bible of 1611 was published. Although claiming to be older than the King James Bible, it plagiarizes about 25,000 words in the King James Bible. If you compare the two, you will see the Book of Mormon copies the King James Bible word for word in numerous verses.

I've already mentioned instances where this is only to be expected, such as places in which Nephi restates Isaiah for posterity and where Jesus himself appears to the people.

The Book of Mormon contains many errors. It actually makes claims of elephants in the Western Hemisphere before 400 A.D.

Prove that these are "errors".

Joseph Smith had at least twenty-seven wives. Him and his followers moved from New York to Ohio, then to Missouri, but the Governor ran them out of the state.

There's a lot more to matters than just that.

In the 1830s, Missouri was a "slave" state. As you can imagine, the presence of a whole host of new settlers with a "strange" religion and marked abolitionist tendencies wasn't taken too kindly. When it looked like the church might soon become the majority in the state, tensions flared. A series of statements made by church leaders condemning various apostate groups was taken to be a call to arms against the locals, and so the locals responded via mob violence. When the state and federal governments refused to send aid, the church was forced to organize its own militia units. This led to a series of skirmishes known as the Missouri Conflict.

The final official battle was the Battle of Crooked River, wherein a group of Mormons seeking to rescue some reported kidnap victims encountered a mob group that was camped out by a body of water. Among the mob members who was killed in the battle was a state militia member who had deserted his post to join in the fighting. For reasons unknown, the man's status as a deserter was not reported to Governor Boggs. Instead, Boggs was led to believe that the church had attacked a state militia unit. In response, Boggs issued the Extermination Order, which demanded religious pogroms against the Mormons living in the state. Scant days later, the Haun's Mill Massacre took place, wherein members of the Missouri state militia rode into the Mormon settlement of Haun's Mill and shot at everyone they saw... including young children. Two young boys (9 and 10) were among the dead, while a third young boy was crippled.

In 1847, Brigham Young and the Mormons moved to Salt Lake City to escape the United States laws.

No, the plan was to escape mob violence by going to a piece of land so absolutely desolate that it was hoped no one else would want it.

Young commanded Bishop John Lee to murder over one hundred non-Mormon immigrants in 1857.

So false as to be slanderous.

Federal appointments to Utah held little in the way of pay or prestige, and so by 1858 the government was scraping the bottom of the barrel when it came to finding appointees to fill spots in the state. As a result, many of the officials who were appointed to positions were unfit for their posts. This includes one judge who took an appointment in large part because it gave him an excuse to be rid of his wife.

Said judge was not a popular man, and in time a number of vocal critics arose. One night, however, one such critic was bushwhacked. The assailant was caught, and quickly discovered to be a servant in the judge's employ. The dam burst at t his point, and the judge was run out of the territory.

The judge realized that if word got back to Washington before he did, his career would be over. As such, he sought to preempt any report that might be sent by filing a false report of rebellion. For reasons that are still not known, President Buchanan took the false report at face value and ordered 1,000+ soldiers to the territory... in the process failing to announce his intentions.

News of such a large force descending upon Utah without notice caused a general panic, especially in the wake of the Haun's Mill Massacre and other such instances. Paranoia swept through the land, and anyone who was an "other" was suspect. Into this blundered the Francher Party, who had foolishly decided not to take all of the supplies they needed for the journey west in the belief that by going "light" they'd go faster. Instead, they ran out of supplies while in Utah, and found no one willing to sell to them.

There is a historical dispute as to what happened, but what is known is that at least one member of the local Paiute band died after the Paiutes traded supplies for Francher cattle. The Paiute - normally a peaceful people - wanted blood, and the local militia commander was more than willing to lend them a hand. A local mayor sent a letter back to Brigham Young asking for advice in the matter, as it looked like the Paiute would attack any day now. Young ordered the local Mormons to stand down and let nature take its course, but by the time the order arrived the militia had already taken matters into its own hands.

Young somehow escaped punishment and to this day the Mormon history books do not mention about his role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

This is because he didn't have a role.

In fact, Young actually offered to use his authority as head of the church to assist the federal government when they attempted the first investigation back circa 1859; when this investigation was mysteriously abandoned without explanation, Young took it to believe that the government knew it couldn't prove anything.

Really, Furniss' work on the matter is the best primer I can find on the Utah War and all involved issues. I'd suggest you spent some quality time with a copy.

The Mormon church has over five million members

12 - 14 million now, depending upon which set of statistics you cite.

This is not taught in the Bible anywhere.

[citation needed]

but the Bible teaches that no one has seen God at any time.

Genesis 3:20
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 33:11
And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

So here's two OT passages claiming that people have seen God, and there are other passages claiming that both Jesus and humanity are in God's image.

Mormons deny that Hell is a literal place with fire.

Prove that the Bible supports such a notion.

deny the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ

Slanderously false.

Mormons are taught that Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers

The actual teaching is that everyone who is and was are the spiritual siblings of each other. By extension, this means that both Jesus and Satan are our spiritual brothers as well.

As Christians we understand that the Bible teaches that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Mormons believe that salvation is by good works, water baptism, missionary work and other good deeds. James Talmage in the "Articles of Faith" of the Mormons says that justification by faith is an evil, "pernicious doctrine".

If you've seen how badly doctrines like "Once Saved, Always Saved" have been abused, you might come to agree with him.

Mormons also have "Sacred Temple Undergarments" or the "Garments of the Holy Priesthood". These "magic" undergarments are said to keep the Mormons safe from the "evils of this world".

[citation needed]

The Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible in various places. The Bible teaches that the Church started in Acts 2, while the Book of Mormon teaches that it started in 147 BC according to Mosiah 18:17. Acts 11:26 records that the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch around 40-65 AD, while Alma 46:13-16 in the Book of Mormon says that the Nephites were referred to as Christians in 73 BC. The Bible says that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem, while Alma 7:10 said he would be born in Jerusalem. I will stop there, but there are tons and tons of more errors and contradictions in the Book of Mormon and other Mormon writings.

You do realize that the BoM represents people oceans removed from the folks in the Bible, right?

Means it's not a contradiction.

Ironhold · May 12, 2015

mmksparbud said:
I would really like to find information on Joseph Smith's childhood. The years prior to his "visions." Does anyone have anymore info during those years. Someone posted about his mother having said that he would make up stories about pre-biblical days with great details. I can't remember where that was posted, I forgot to keep it.

Joseph's own autobiography.

A New Dawn · May 12, 2015

TheBarrd said:
What is RLDS?

The RLDS church is a sister church to the LDS church. When Joseph Smith was killed, the church splintered into at least 16 factions. The LDS and the RLDS were the two largest groups that came from that split.

The RLDS church is the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's headquarters is in Independence, MO (the centerplace of Zion, according to Joseph Smith). The RLDS church follow the teachings of the very early restoration and reject all the esoteric temple rituals that were introduced in the Nauvoo period (the last 5 years before JS was killed.) The early restoration was heavily influenced by Sidney Rigdon (as opposed to Brigham Young in the latter period) who was a prominent Campbellite minister. The church, during that time, was Trinitarian in nature. They did not start those non-Trinitarian teachings till they moved to Nauvoo. After the church split, the larger majority of the church went west to Utah with Brigham Young, a much smaller percentage stayed in the midwest, uniting under Joseph Smith's son when he came of age.

When I came to this board 11 years ago, I was RLDS and was relegated to Unorthodox Theology, but the mainstream Christians didn't know what to do with me because they had never heard of RLDS, and didn't understand how a restoration church could reject some of Joseph Smith's teachings.

A New Dawn · May 12, 2015

TasteForTruth said:
I'm not against anyone here, so I object to your generalization.

OK. You are not the majority of LDS posters here.

Ironhold · May 12, 2015

BigDaddy4 said:
So you cannot provide the specific verse, just your opinion?

If you'd have read the BoM in full, you'd know that this was actual fact.

A New Dawn · May 12, 2015

skylark1 said:
I missed seeing this earlier. I'm with you TasteforTruth, I'm not against anyone here.

Maybe saying some LDS and Christians would be against your doctrines would be more accurate?

OK, is "all the LDS but one, and all the Christians but one" better? j/k

Maybe "against" is too harsh a word, but as someone on the receiving end of everyone's .............. passion, as a loner on the board, "against" feels like what it was.

Ironhold · May 12, 2015

TheBarrd said:
What is RLDS?

Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When Joseph and Hyrum were murdered, the church was left without a clear successor for leadership.

The main body chose Brigham Young, while other members chose to follow a relative of Joseph's. This second group became the RLDS faith.

A New Dawn · May 12, 2015

Ironhold said:
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When Joseph and Hyrum were murdered, the church was left without a clear successor for leadership.

The main body chose Brigham Young, while other members chose to follow a relative of Joseph's. This second group became the RLDS faith.

The main body chose Sidney Rigdon to hold the church in trusteeship for young Joseph, knowing his father had designated him on 3 separate occasions. Brigham Young stole it after masquerading as Joseph Smith after taking his horse and his Nauvoo Legion uniform, faking the people into thinking they saw a transformation.

BigDaddy4 · May 12, 2015

Ironhold said:
If you'd have read the BoM in full, you'd know that this was actual fact.

I'll take that as a no, you cannot provide evidence of your "fact".

Seems odd when you are one of the main pontificators of providing evidence of claims, yet unwilling to provide it yourself.

Ironhold · May 12, 2015

A New Dawn said:
Brigham Young stole it after masquerading as Joseph Smith after taking his horse and his Nauvoo Legion uniform, faking the people into thinking they saw a transformation.

[citation needed]

A New Dawn · May 12, 2015

Ironhold said:
[citation needed]

Historic accounts. Read them.

Ironhold · May 12, 2015

A New Dawn said:
Historic accounts. Read them.

You mean like the account of my ancestor who was there at the time and who reported that the matter was a spiritual vision that didn't involve anything of the sort alleged?

A New Dawn · May 12, 2015

Ironhold said:
You mean like the account of my ancestor who was there at the time and who reported that the matter was a spiritual vision that didn't involve anything of the sort alleged?

Like all the historical accounts. Those include other things than LDS-based writings. Things that suggest that your ancestor was duped.

TasteForTruth · May 12, 2015

A New Dawn said:
Like all the historical accounts. Those include other things than LDS-based writings. Things that suggest that your ancestor was duped.

I've read several histories of Joseph Smith; some better cited and more objective than others. I recall that the best histories (on those bases) do not support the idea of the "transformation" of Brigham Young's appearance being a costume or dupe. But that's the dangerous thing about history isn't it...this guy remembers it this way and this guy remembers it that way...

Ironhold · May 12, 2015

TasteForTruth said:
I've read several histories of Joseph Smith; some better cited and more objective than others. I recall that the best histories (on those bases) do not support the idea of the "transformation" of Brigham Young's appearance being a costume or dupe. But that's the dangerous thing about history isn't it...this guy remembers it this way and this guy remembers it that way...

In fact, this is the first time I've heard someone propose such a dupe.

Makes me wonder who first reported this allegation and why.

drstevej · May 12, 2015

Some folks confuse tapirs and horses.

smaneck · May 12, 2015

Theway said:
You mean because I would have to adopt a Jewish mother in law?

Oh, you're bad.

mmksparbud · May 12, 2015

TasteForTruth said:
The challenge is that LDS are interested in the big picture as well as the pixel, and likely the former more so than the latter. To my knowledge, I haven't ever sent you a PM, so you can't be referring to me above, but I frequently do object to comments or claims about the LDS religion that, on the surface, appear to be "what LDS believe," or "what LDS teach." It is the isolation or divorcement of a single idea from the composite that usually brings the objection. In the interest of truth and fairness, we want people to understand not just "what we teach," but what it means. And that usually, if not always, requires a broader context which, in very many cases, non-Mormons do not include when they speak about us (and some, as a matter of absolute fact, avoid the broader contextthey don't want you to see our religion for what it is, but for what they want you to see it as).

There are other contributing factors, as well, but this is what is most likely relevant to your comment, so that's all I'll offer at this point.

I very much object to your last sentence. I don't think anyone wants to present your believes by lying about them, nobody needs to do that. And you can write a 30 page treatise on the subject of why God was a man before He became God-bottom line, you believe God was a man before He became God. So I do not understand why you get mad when somebody states it. It doesn't really matter why you believe it, that is the believe. We say God was always God--doesn't matter why that is what we believe. So when someone says Christians believe God always was God, nobody gets mad about it--it what we believe. If someone asks why, we say it's what the bible says ad we believe it.
If somebody asks why you believe He was a man first, then you give your explanation.
People who come on here who were LDS are not making this stuff up. They are saying what they found. And they give quotes from the BOM where the statement is said. Then it's said that it's taken out of context, I can understand that, I know that happens even when quoting scripture. The thing is, when the context is explained, it sheds no light on the matter and the quote stands even when context is explained. This is what is so confusing. We are the begotten children of God---the bible says Christ alone is the begotten Son of God. We are adopted creations called His children. We are not a part of God as Christ is--we are made in His image, we are not made from what He is anymore than Barbie can be considered begotten by humanity in spite of being made in our image. (I wish I looked like that!). So you can explain why you think we are His begotten children all you want--bottom line, it is what you believe and it is not what the bible teaches. But then you will get upset if it is stated as your believe---I don't get it!

A New Dawn · May 12, 2015

TasteForTruth said:
I've read several histories of Joseph Smith; some better cited and more objective than others. I recall that the best histories (on those bases) do not support the idea of the "transformation" of Brigham Young's appearance being a costume or dupe. But that's the dangerous thing about history isn't it...this guy remembers it this way and this guy remembers it that way...

"[M]ore objective" = the way I believe it. Right?

Ironhold said:
In fact, this is the first time I've heard someone propose such a dupe.

Makes me wonder who first reported this allegation and why.

Of course it does. Because it causes problems with your narrative. Right?

What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

Replaced by a robot, just like Biden.

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