What's it take to be a Messianic?

[Lulav]

How about just 'Yeshuaism'?

 

[ChavaK]

How about just 'Yeshuaism'?

Nice and simple and to the point!
Course people will be asking "what's a Yeshua".

 

[Lulav]

I think that will be a lot easier to answer than what is Messianic Judaism.

 

[Avodat]

I think that will be a lot easier to answer than what is Messianic Judaism.

Not when you see how some folk write that name!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Messianic Israelism is a term which denotes an expression of five core truths which motivate its adherents to embrace authentic Biblical faith. These truths include the following:

1. There exists a personal creator-sustainer-designer of the physical world.

2. YHVH is the personal creator-sustainer-designer of the physical world, and He exists as described in the Tanach and Messianic Scriptures.

3. Israel is YHVH's family.

4. Yeshua is Israel's Savior and Messiah.

5. Torah obedience is the proper manifestation of New Covenant faith.

Thus, Messianic Israelism is theistic, creationist, and Biblical. "YHVH" denotes the self-revealed name of God in the Tanach ("Old Testament"). The Messianic Scriptures ("New Testament") and Tanach are jointly taken to constitute the divinely inspired and authoritative Biblical Scriptures. The covenants of promise between YHVH and the family of living Israel reveal the divine ideal purpose to bless all nations through that family, and to bring individual and corporate salvation through Yeshua ("Jesus"), Israel's Savior and Messiah, whose gracious initiation of the New Covenant brings the promise of forgiveness of sins to the faithful, and facilitates the blessings of Torah obedience in sanctification directed by the Holy Spirit.
​

makes sense to me, although it's a bit of a tongue twister.
Why not just "Messianic" or "Messianic faith"?

Was thinking the same, as it concerns how the term "Messianic Israelism" can be a bit of a tongue twister. And there have been other terms already used that seem to reflect what the link suggested. "Messianic faith" would do in many respects...


A Messianic Israelism would potentially come off as a variation of Two-House when it comes to noting the ways that the Jews (of Judah) are different than those who are of Israel/Gentiles who qualify as such...similar to what others have said such as Steve Collins or a John McKee of TNN Online (whom I tend to lean toward in many ways)

But the term is "Messianic Israelism" is rather nice...

My immediate thoughts would be to suggest simply using the term "Messianic" since even others who disagree with the ways others try to go after the Lord/live out the ways Yeshua lived in the 1st century have gone to war with others who do the same and yet differ as to the degree or the methodology. With all of the arguing over "Messianic Judaism", the same would perhaps occur with "Messianic Israelism" as well if given enough time...

 

[A_Pioneer]

"Of the Way"

 

[ContraMundum]

On what you noted, perhaps it's an issue of pride that influences some of the focus upon the icon dynamic/trying to identify--for to many, having a title makes one feel as if they automatically do "more" or perhaps are "More" than others who do not identify as them...even though others outside of the label box may do exactly as they do and yet are comfortable/confident enough to not feel as if not having the label is what determines their identity. From a larger persepctive, this is something that many Gentiles struggle with when the desire may be to identify as Messianic Jewish because being Jewish in mindset/lifestyle is considered to be far superior to being Gentile...and in their mindset, Yeshua seemed less concerned with love for the Gentile world and more with the Jewish one. Because of those factors that are assumed, it can be bothersome whenever one encounters Jews outside of the "MJish" box that was created who say/make apparent they do the same things done within MJism. It's like someone saying "All Hispanics love Salsa!!!" and making rules/categories upon that....only to encounter a Hispanic who actually hates the musical style and happens to love punk rock. One can either acknowledge that the category is incorrect/needs to be altered, or they can ignore it/continue on...or they can fight against the Rock&Roll Hispanic and claim that he or she is "wrong" for not loving salsa as they believed all Hispanics should.

Whenever other Jews are saying of one another that someone isn't "Jewish" enough and the people said to not be "Jewish" enough are saying of the Jews "You aren't truly Messianic like WE ARe!!!!", you know something's off. Especially when it may be Gentiles who were neither called to live fully Jewish or who assume it's their right to tell other Jews what it means to be Jewish...and assume anything Gentile is automatically "second-class" or not what the Messiah truly loves.

What you noted about Messianic Judaism being identical to Evangelical Christianity is so true. Many have said at times it seems identical to other aspecs of Christianity, be it Fundamentalist or Anabaptists and a myriad of other camps. And many within the MJish movement came from camps outside of it/carried views over into the camp, creating differing strains. As mentioned before:

​

Some have often felt it is not necessary to try arguing that Christianity needs to be seperate from MJism at all points since the camp already reflects it down to a T, even if others within it argue to the contrary. For the main differences are truly within the material realm (i.e Torah processions, Shofar blowing, ceremonies, theological opinions, etc)---just like a black person saying they're not "black" because of their being mixed/a mulatto (i.e having a white parent and being biracial), even though being black is apart of their heritage. There's nothing to be ashamed of with that...but if one's going to say the MJish movement is a reflection of Jewish culture, there needs to be honesty on that one should many Jews have never truly felt that whenever they as Jews are being told by non-Jews how others are doing something for Jews that Jews never really asked for.

Good points, and as usual, so much to think about. I wonder a lot about denominational pride, and you see it a lot in the forums here at CF. The older I get the more I loathe the notion that I have to be a "something" at all. I am who I am. I am me. My beliefs are a balance of submission to a higher power and self-discovery as I walk down the road of faith. Why then do I need to be part of this or that herd?

On the other hand, without some sense of labeling to establish boundaries and definitions for discussion, not much happens. However, I would be willing to have a go at it. I would love more than anything to have frank, academic discussion without the labels and stereotypes that accompany them getting in the way.

Just my two cents...

 

[ContraMundum]

Well there is no conversion process, so anyone can use the title, even if the title is maybe used incorrectly, just like Christianity, Christianity is used by many organizations and people, some of which would never work together and in fact would consider the other wrong on many levels.

Interesting point. Each denomination has some form of formal acceptance of its tenets whereby someone can claim membership of that group. This is usually based on agreement with doctrines and practices.

The thing is that we (humans) make things pretty complex. Some churches have simple rites for membership and others more complex processes. The problems arises that the NT doesn't prescribe anything remotely complex for membership in the Body of Christ and to be a disciple of Yeshua. It's pretty much believe and be baptized and that's about it.

Perhaps this is where the whole issue of "conversion process" comes into collision with the simple means mapped out in the NT. This would mean a lot to a movement like MJism (and others of course) that seeks to live out paleo-Christianity. Maybe the modern day follower just makes it all too messy?

 

[CrystalB]

Coming from a Gentile Christian background, I would say that it takes being willing to give up doctrines of men, going back to before Constatine, a leap of faith, an open mind and open heart, a willingness to learn, and a desire to be one body in Messiah, as He had prayed for us to be one in the garden. Modern doctrinal Christianity has never made much sense to me because one denomination contradicts another on one thing, you end up with confusion on who's right and who's wrong with no one taking the time to truly understand what is written.

 

[yedida]

There is Messianic Conversion processes - three that I'm aware of for those gentiles who wish it. It doesn't make one acceptable to the Jewish community, nor eligible for aliyah to Israel, just more of a public statement of Ruth to any Messianic Jews who are willing to accept it. if they don't, that's okay too. It's really something that's just between the person and God. Not much else will change. Genetics are genetics, period.

 

[yedida]

Coming from a Gentile Christian background, I would say that it takes being willing to give up doctrines of men, going back to before Constatine, a leap of faith, an open mind and open heart, a willingness to learn, and a desire to be one body in Messiah, as He had prayed for us to be one in the garden. Modern doctrinal Christianity has never made much sense to me because one denomination contradicts another on one thing, you end up with confusion on who's right and who's wrong with no one taking the time to truly understand what is written.

I pray someday it will all get sorted out. For me, this is the best place to be to do some serious learning once we leave the boxes and descriptions behind.

 

[yedida]

How about Torah-Based Messianism?
Messianics-Torah Based

 

[Avodat]

How about Torah-Based Messianism?
Messianics-Torah Based

For most people on here the name 'Biblical Judaism' would fit well and would be distinct from modern day Judaism. I know it may, for some, hold resonances of Rabbinicism but so has, and probably more so, MJism. True Biblical Judaism is what we seem to be pointing to, with many wanting to go back to Acts 15 etc plus the fullness of Torah, as well. Yeshua taught true Biblical Judaism, not MJism, so we are getting nearer to what he understood the way forward to be with 'Biblical Judaism'. For the academics / pastors among us, I know the term is in use among us but it is not a well used term, generally, outside of our circles but our use of it would point exactly to what people are looking for here.

 

[yedida]

For most people on here the name 'Biblical Judaism' would fit well and would be distinct from modern day Judaism. I know it may, for some, hold resonances of Rabbinicism but so has, and probably more so, MJism. True Biblical Judaism is what we seem to be pointing to, with many wanting to go back to Acts 15 etc plus the fullness of Torah, as well. Yeshua taught true Biblical Judaism, not MJism, so we are getting nearer to what he understood the way forward to be with 'Biblical Judaism'. For the academics / pastors among us, I know the term is in use among us but it is not a well used term, generally, outside of our circles but our use of it would point exactly to what people are looking for here.

Wish I'd thought of it! Agreed! I believe that would work for many of us.

 

[Avodat]

Wish I'd thought of it! Agreed! I believe that would work for many of us.

Like being Biblically kosher etc., etc - fits in well.

 

[Qnts2]

For most people on here the name 'Biblical Judaism' would fit well and would be distinct from modern day Judaism. I know it may, for some, hold resonances of Rabbinicism but so has, and probably more so, MJism. True Biblical Judaism is what we seem to be pointing to, with many wanting to go back to Acts 15 etc plus the fullness of Torah, as well. Yeshua taught true Biblical Judaism, not MJism, so we are getting nearer to what he understood the way forward to be with 'Biblical Judaism'. For the academics / pastors among us, I know the term is in use among us but it is not a well used term, generally, outside of our circles but our use of it would point exactly to what people are looking for here.

I think the term 'biblical Judaism' has many issues.

First of all, todays Rabbinic Judaism is, for the most part, an adjustment for Judaism to be practiced in the diaspora. Biblical Judaism (based on the Mosaic law) can not be practiced today as the Jewish people are still in diaspora.

On the other hand, Messianic Judaism must be very careful not to be a version of diaspora Judaism. Diaspora Judaism is of course the Jewish people scattered as a punishment, and Judaism adjusted to be practiced outside of the land. Yet, Messianic Judaism is not 'Mosaic covenant' biblical Judaism as we are not in the land, a different Priesthood, no Temple etc. The reason we are not Diaspora Judaism is because Jesus died for all of our sins, and we are not under punishment.

Messianic Judaism must be New Covenant Judaism. The same way Mosaic Covenant Judaism was in the desert after Mt. Sinai but before entering the land. Not everything was in place until they entered the land, but the children of Israel did have the Mosaic covenant.

For the differences, let's look at Passover.

The Mosaic law says that Pesach is one of the Holy Days which requires people to go up to Jerusalem. (We don't do that today). There is the sacrifice of the lamb, (only for the circumcised), which we can not do today. So, in reality, the Passover celebrated in Judaism is a diaspora Passover, and not actually the Passover commanded in the Mosaic law.

For Messianic Judaism, Jesus said to do this in memory of Him. There is no requirement of the sacrificial lamb. Since that is true, the celebration includes Gentiles. And without the sacrificial lamb, no need for a Temple. (Or to go up to Jerusalem) Can we fully celebrate Messianic Passover at this time? Yes. And all those whom have received Yeshua, and all He did, are fully included.

 

[Avodat]

I think the term 'biblical Judaism' has many issues.

First of all, todays Rabbinic Judaism is, for the most part, an adjustment for Judaism to be practiced in the diaspora. Biblical Judaism (based on the Mosaic law) can not be practiced today as the Jewish people are still in diaspora.

On the other hand, Messianic Judaism must be very careful not to be a version of diaspora Judaism. Diaspora Judaism is of course the Jewish people scattered as a punishment, and Judaism adjusted to be practiced outside of the land. Yet, Messianic Judaism is not 'Mosaic covenant' biblical Judaism as we are not in the land, a different Priesthood, no Temple etc. The reason we are not Diaspora Judaism is because Jesus died for all of our sins, and we are not under punishment.

Messianic Judaism must be New Covenant Judaism. The same way Mosaic Covenant Judaism was in the desert after Mt. Sinai but before entering the land. Not everything was in place until they entered the land, but the children of Israel did have the Mosaic covenant.

For the differences, let's look at Passover.

The Mosaic law says that Pesach is one of the Holy Days which requires people to go up to Jerusalem. (We don't do that today). There is the sacrifice of the lamb, (only for the circumcised), which we can not do today. So, in reality, the Passover celebrated in Judaism is a diaspora Passover, and not actually the Passover commanded in the Mosaic law.

For Messianic Judaism, Jesus said to do this in memory of Him. There is no requirement of the sacrificial lamb. Since that is true, the celebration includes Gentiles. And without the sacrificial lamb, no need for a Temple. (Or to go up to Jerusalem) Can we fully celebrate Messianic Passover at this time? Yes. And all those whom have received Yeshua, and all He did, are fully included.

The term Biblical Judaism relates to Judaism in Bible times, by definition, that which Yeshua et al taught; I think almost everyone knows that certain laws cannot now be fulfilled as intended, whether Jews or Gentiles (the Jews however do look to the 3rd Temple being built soon, having made all that is necessary to fit out the Temple). However, as Messianic Judaism means Christian Judaism (Messianic through Greek to English = Christ = Christian) and so should not be pushed to the extreme, so to with Biblical Judaism. New Covenant Judaism will be seen by many to exclude the law and will just be a smart name for Christians who don't like 'Christianity'. If we push any title too far it has problems! But Biblical Judaism IS what we are working towards, in a sense, when the New Jeruslaem appears - to go back to pure Judaism as was the case post-Yeshua in Acts 15 etc. Biblical Judaism doesn't become something alien because we cannot carry out parts of it. You could also say by the same token that Judaism, as such, should not be used because that, too, when pressed to its logical end, is all about sacrifice, going to Jerusalem each year at appropriate times for Temple worship. At this rate we'll finish with no name!

 

[ChavaK]

The term Biblical Judaism relates to Judaism in Bible times

Why such an attachment by everyone to the term "Judaism"?
Not a historian, but was this term even used in the first century?

 

[Qnts2]

The term Biblical Judaism relates to Judaism in Bible times, by definition, that which Yeshua et al taught; I think almost everyone knows that certain laws cannot now be fulfilled as intended, whether Jews or Gentiles (the Jews however do look to the 3rd Temple being built soon, having made all that is necessary to fit out the Temple). However, as Messianic Judaism means Christian Judaism (Messianic through Greek to English = Christ = Christian) and so should not be pushed to the extreme, so to with Biblical Judaism. New Covenant Judaism will be seen by many to exclude the law and will just be a smart name for Christians who don't like 'Christianity'. If we push any title too far it has problems! But Biblical Judaism IS what we are working towards, in a sense, when the New Jeruslaem appears - to go back to pure Judaism as was the case post-Yeshua in Acts 15 etc. Biblical Judaism doesn't become something alien because we cannot carry out parts of it. You could also say by the same token that Judaism, as such, should not be used because that, too, when pressed to its logical end is, all about sacrifice, going to Jerusalem each year at appropriate time for Temple worship. At this rate we'll finish with no name!

I prefer New Covenant Judaism, as it is a different convenant then the Mosaic covenant. There are definite changes and a change in even one law means it can not be the Mosaic covenant.

Judaism is not necessarily about sacrifice, as it simply means, the religion of the Jewish people. If and when the Jewish people accept the Messiah, then the norm will be for the Jewish people to practice New Covenant Judaism. As of right now, most don't, although it was offered to the Jewish people and only a small number accepted the New Covenant.

Biblically, the Jewish people who have rejected Jesus are still obligated to the Mosaic covenant. Today, the Jewish people are in diaspora, and can not do many of the commands in the Mosaic covenant. Since the Mosaic covenant says that the Jewish people would be dispersed if they disobeyed, even the diaspora is 'biblical Judaism'.

What I practice is New Covenant Messianic Judaism. I do see the covenant we are under is the New Covenant, which is very different then the Mosaic covenant. Of course, I was raised in Mosaic covenant diaspora Judaism and coming to believe on the Jewish Messiah, made a world of differences in my life. With that belief, I am now under the New Covenant.

 

[Avodat]

I prefer New Covenant Judaism, as it is a different convenant then the Mosaic covenant. There are definite changes and a change in even one law means it can not be the Mosaic covenant.

Judaism is not necessarily about sacrifice, as it simply means, the religion of the Jewish people. If and when the Jewish people accept the Messiah, then the norm will be for the Jewish people to practice New Covenant Judaism. As of right now, most don't, although it was offered to the Jewish people and only a small number accepted the New Covenant.

Biblically, the Jewish people who have rejected Jesus are still obligated to the Mosaic covenant. Today, the Jewish people are in diaspora, and can not do many of the commands in the Mosaic covenant. Since the Mosaic covenant says that the Jewish people would be dispersed if they disobeyed, even the diaspora is 'biblical Judaism'.

What I practice is New Covenant Messianic Judaism. I do see the covenant we are under is the New Covenant, which is very different then the Mosaic covenant. Of course, I was raised in Mosaic covenant diaspora Judaism and coming to believe on the Jewish Messiah, made a world of differences in my life. With that belief, I am now under the New Covenant.

I think you will find that the majority on here would not hold to such a defined separation of the Covenant as you see it. But you are free to fly under whatever names you wish.