What would make you disbelieve?

[98cwitr]

what you just said is a sentence fragment...what does the failure conclude? What tests have you performed?

 

[nicknack28]

Jasper, I can greatly appreciate your need for evidence in order to come to your beliefs. The fact that you are offering resources supporting the resurrection of Jesus shows that you do search for some factual confirmation that Jesus was/is God instead of accepting what scripture says without skepticism. If you PM me your resources (though hopefully not too many) I would be happy to look at them.

However, I do not see how the passage you chose from the Bible suggests that a person needs evidence to have faith. It says "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." You next describe exactly how we can be certain about God even though we cannot see him -- Jesus and his divinity. But according to the passage we shouldn't even need this, right? Why, if faith is being sure of what we do not see, do we even need to see/know of Jesus (or even any evidence for his divinity)? The passage seems to suggest that faith is complete confidence in something without any need for evidence. That's my take at least, though I welcome others'.

So in short I can respect your methods for coming to belief but I am uncertain that the nature of faith as you describe is quite how most people would use it. Of course I may be wrong.

 

[nicknack28]

Drich, I do not mean to imply that in all cases belief is based on some intellectual reasoning. It clearly is not, for better or for worse.

However, and I say this with respect, I have a couple problems with statements you make. The first problem is with this statement: "We choose or want to love first, then we come to believe." I do not understand how someone can love or choose to love something that they do not yet believe in.

The second problem is where you say (as others have) that ". . . it would take the word of God himself to change what it is we believe about Him." I can understand this though I may not have communicated such well. Only if God revealed to you that your perception of him is incorrect would you change what you believe about him. That's fair enough. But what would make you disbelief in the existence of God himself? I don't mean disbelief in how you currently understand his desires, quirks, character, nature, or anything. I mean his existence. This is why I stated that you didn't actually answer my question, because saying that only the word of God would make you disbelieve in a god is a nonsensical statement.

I hope I've communicated myself clearly and please have patience if I'm not picking up on peoples' concepts as quickly or accurately as would be preferred. I will respond to others' posts a little later because I do not want to crank out responses like an assembly line.

One final note (to Drich), Acorn asked me what I perceive to be practically the same question about what would make me believe, and I responded shortly afterward in post #16. 98Cwitr also asked a couple related questions that I responded to briefly. If neither of those responses concerned what you were interested in, however, feel free to ask me more specifically so I can respond better.

 

[razzelflabben]

I have been abused, had parents try to kill me with allergies, been molested by a family member, I have been homeless with 3 young children, been beaten up by the church, had the church attack my children for the truths of scripture...I have had one try to stab me for the truths of scripture, been lied to, accused falsely, been visited by demons, etc. and non of those things could cause me not to believe...Rom. 8:38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[drich0150]

The second problem is where you say (as others have) that ". . . it would take the word of God himself to change what it is we believe about Him." I can understand this though I may not have communicated such well. Only if God revealed to you that your perception of him is incorrect would you change what you believe about him. That's fair enough. But what would make you disbelief in the existence of God himself? I don't mean disbelief in how you currently understand his desires, quirks, character, nature, or anything. I mean his existence. This is why I stated that you didn't actually answer my question, because saying that only the word of God would make you disbelieve in a god is a nonsensical statement.

I know you have reworded this several times looking for an answer that fits your line of reasoning. All i have to offer is what i have stated. Which means for me to disbelieve in the existence of God it would take God to tell me that He didn't exist, or at least not in the way I have perceived Him to exist.

I personally don't think there is much that can be found in this life that would convince me otherwise, or i should say nothing as of yet. (because as you know every "good" Christian want to keep an open mind to the non existence of their God.)


Love or Agape is a choice. (One that does not require feeling) If you choose to have (Agape) God then this type of Love is supported by the Agape God has seen fit to bestow upon us. This "presents' of God in your life is made manifest throughout the work and actions of the Holy Spirit.

So if you want to "believe" then Show God Agape. In turn He will send or bless you with a measure of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit brings love, proof and reassurances. It is through these Gifts (among others) and the following trials that True Faith and an unbreakable belief is forged.

If a belief in God, is assembled in the way He has laid out for us, then nothing man can say or do can break that belief.

 

[98cwitr]

No, it is not a sentence fragment. It simply must be read in context:


See, that is a complete sentence once it is read in the context of the question, since clearly a reiteration of the question is implied in any answer. The question was not what such a failure would conclude, but what would make me disbelieve. And considering the brevity of others answers to this question, I did not think we were looking for a detailed analysis. Are you interested in the details so that you can demonstrate that my reasons shouldn't have caused unbelief? If so, I can tell you that my reasons are subjective (as should have been indicated by the second element), and is intricately linked to who I am and my past. I do not make any claims to have proven that God is not there. Now, if you are simply interested because you want to study the psychology of disbelief or you have somehow taken an interest in me as a person, then let me know and I can offer you some links to my blog that explain the thinking that I summarized in my previous post.

Sorry, so far into the thread and w/o a quotation of the OP, I was not able to determine the context of your post. Would love to read them actually, PM me?

 

[Hentenza]

Let me remind everyone that ONLY the OP can ask further questions. Other unbelievers can open their own thread to ask their questions. Discussion is allowed but not debate.

 

[nicknack28]

I know you have reworded this several times looking for an answer that fits your line of reasoning. All i have to offer is what i have stated. Which means for me to disbelieve in the existence of God it would take God to tell me that He didn't exist, or at least not in the way I have perceived Him to exist.

This is our main problem here. You think that your answer doesn't fit my line of reasoning whereas I think your answer doesn't fit any line of reasoning. There is only one scenario that would make you disbelieve in a god: a god told you something to make you disbelieve in him . . . even though you know it was that god that told you. You must believe that a god is telling you something in order to disbelieve in a god?

This would be a paradox -- having belief and non-belief simultaneously -- and that is why I'm so resistant to accepting it as a meaningful answer (no offense). If you can show me how your answer can work in another line of reasoning then I'd gladly listen. You may have tried to do so in your last post but your use of unfamiliar terminology made if very difficult to understand what you were saying. I would like to repeat that I don't understand how someone can love something they don't believe in but you probably take issue with that statement as well. If you do then I would welcome any explanation you are interested in offering. I am always open to bettering my reasoning.

Also, thank you Supreme and Hammster for your answers. They are comparable to Jasper's and I'm glad to see a consensus of answers where I did not expect one. Sorry Sad Clown that your posts had to be removed.

 

[JasperJackson]

nicknack,

Here are a few online resources, as promised:
Questions about Jesus
Gospel is true - John Piper
Was Jesus really crucified? - John Piper
Historicity of Jesus' resurrection - Gary Habermas (part 1 in series of 11, follow links for others)

Ok, that will do for now. PM me if you have any questions, or would like more resources.

Cheers,
JJ

 

[drich0150]

I have written an explanation and tried to post several times explaining what agape love is and my take on your paradox, but something is won't let me post.. (whatever is going on, it keeps erasing my efforts) Maybe I'll try again tomorrow.

But for whatever reason this made it...