What would it take to disprove atheism?

[Aldebaran]

Duplicate post.

 

[Deidre32]

I've tried answering questions like this, but it always invites responses of "Why do you quote bible verses when we don't believe in the bible???" So in order for me to respond to a question like this, I have to explain it to you in ways that you don't believe even the basis of.

If you were to read the bible from front to back, you might notice that the story of human history is being told from the point of creation, to man falling into sin, to God showing us his nature, to Christ offering us a way out, to Christ giving instructions and the Holy Spirit for us to bring others to Christ and salvation. I'm willing to bet that you've already lost interest in what I'm saying at this point. Need I go into more detail, or would that be a waste of time?

I've read the bible multiple times. The problem with the bible is that it is riddled with allegory and metaphor. But what is more troubling is that prior to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, Genesis was taught as literal truth by the early Christian church. That is a fact. Then, as Darwin's theory became more popular, and widely accepted, the church changed its stance...and even the Catholic Church is stating to this day that Genesis needn't be taken literally.

So are we to honestly believe that the heavens opened up and God said...um, yea start accepting the theory of evolution, and Adam and Eve, well...its just a tale or did man just....make it all up because he simply didn't understand science and filled in the gaps as to how the world came to be?

I'm going with the latter. And since Genesis was fabricated, who is to say the entire book isn't?

This is fact. If you look at the history of what the Christian church once taught, it changed. How does "God's word" change? Man changes the rules as he goes along and as science starts filling in the gaps of the biblical fables. That pesky Charles Darwin! lol

I wouldn't have left Christianity, had it been built on truth. But it just seems to be man made, and there is no point in pretending that it is something it isn't.

 

[PsychoSarah]

He doesn't. In the future, during the tribulation period, there will be angels that do what God has given the church to do. This happens just before the end. Revelation 14:6--"And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people".

So it's not that he "needs" us to do anything, but he does ask us to. Just like a parent asking one of their children to do something. The parent isn't dependent on the child that way.

Parents, good and responsible ones anyways, don't leave their children with an unnecessary danger to their well being (tree of knowledge/serpent) within their reach, and worse, just tell them not to mess with it and leave it at that.

 

[Gladius]

I've tried answering questions like this, but it always invites responses of "Why do you quote bible verses when we don't believe in the bible???" So in order for me to respond to a question like this, I have to explain it to you in ways that you don't believe even the basis of.

If you were to read the bible from front to back, you might notice that the story of human history is being told from the point of creation, to man falling into sin, to God showing us his nature, to Christ offering us a way out, to Christ giving instructions and the Holy Spirit for us to bring others to Christ and salvation. I'm willing to bet that you've already lost interest in what I'm saying at this point. Need I go into more detail, or would that be a waste of time?

If your intention is to debate your faith logically, then referring to the Bible for evidence of why the Bible is divine revelation is obviously excluded. i.e. the Bible is divine revelation because the Bible says so.

However, if you just want to believe something without logic, then you can do so without needing any justification. That's called BLIND FAITH. Which coincidentally was the honest requirement of Church doctrine until the mid 20th century.

It's just lately that the "faithful" have tried to argue that there is some rationality to their beliefs.

 

[Sasquatchit]

Question for the group: If you are an atheist, what would it take to convince you that there truly is "something" rather than "nothing"?

Or is it possible? (I have a feeling that some loathe the concept of God so much, they could watch the seas part & they would STILL find a reason to doubt.....)

This is like seeing a 7-9 foot Bigfoot standing in front of you and dismissing what you have just seen! Perhaps telling yourself what you actually saw was a bear mimicking a human, or better yet, an escaped zoo monkey. Just maybe, it was one of your estranged neighbors gone wild....

Some people, for whatever reason, just can NOT handle the TRUTH!!!!!

 

[Gladius]

He doesn't. In the future, during the tribulation period, there will be angels that do what God has given the church to do. This happens just before the end. Revelation 14:6--"And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people".

So it's not that he "needs" us to do anything, but he does ask us to. Just like a parent asking one of their children to do something. The parent isn't dependent on the child that way.

No worries then, I'll wait till the angel gets here to start believing.

 

[Aldebaran]

No worries then, I'll wait till the angel gets here to start believing.

Don't forget that this happens during the worst period of time on earth. So you may very well be dead by then anyway, if you're lucky.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Don't forget that this happens during the worst period of time on earth. So you may very well be dead by then anyway, if you're lucky.

No, if he is lucky he will live just long enough to be a believer in time to get I to heaven.

 

[Deidre32]

This is like seeing a 7-9 foot Bigfoot standing in front of you and dismissing what you have just seen! Perhaps telling yourself what you actually saw was a bear mimicking a human, or better yet, an escaped zoo monkey. Just maybe, it was one of your estranged neighbors gone wild....

Some people, for whatever reason, just can NOT handle the TRUTH!!!!!

Or it's like creationists disbelieving tons of mounting evidence that supports the theory of evolution. You are right. lol

 

[bhsmte]

This is like seeing a 7-9 foot Bigfoot standing in front of you and dismissing what you have just seen! Perhaps telling yourself what you actually saw was a bear mimicking a human, or better yet, an escaped zoo monkey. Just maybe, it was one of your estranged neighbors gone wild....

Some people, for whatever reason, just can NOT handle the TRUTH!!!!!

I agree completely.

Some people not only can't handle the truth, they manufacture their own truth.

 

[PsychoSarah]

This is like seeing a 7-9 foot Bigfoot standing in front of you and dismissing what you have just seen! Perhaps telling yourself what you actually saw was a bear mimicking a human, or better yet, an escaped zoo monkey. Just maybe, it was one of your estranged neighbors gone wild....

Some people, for whatever reason, just can NOT handle the TRUTH!!!!!

Can't handle the fact that most evidence suggests when we die it is the end? Yeah, I can barely handle it myself.

 

[Aldebaran]

Can't handle the fact that most evidence suggests when we die it is the end? Yeah, I can barely handle it myself.

If physical evidence is the only evidence you use, then that's the only conclusion you'll come to. Is there nothing more to a human being than what is physical? When someone looks at you, do they see everything there is about you? Aren't you more than just your body?

 

[Deidre32]

If physical evidence is the only evidence you use, then that's the only conclusion you'll come to. Is there nothing more to a human being than what is physical? When someone looks at you, do they see everything there is about you? Aren't you more than just your body?

True, but we know she exists. Those who see her would be able to describe her to others who haven't seen her in real terms. No one has seen "God." It is wild speculation (at the very least) as to who or what he could be which is why there are so many contradictions surrounding the concept of "one God."

Off the path a bit, I admire your piety though half saved. I remember "defending" my faith in a similar way at one time. I may not believe as you do but your sincerity seems genuine.

 

[PsychoSarah]

If physical evidence is the only evidence you use, then that's the only conclusion you'll come to. Is there nothing more to a human being than what is physical? When someone looks at you, do they see everything there is about you? Aren't you more than just your body?

There isn't any supernatural evidence of real substance either. Certainly no evidence of any specific deities at the exclusion of others, nor an afterlife. I mean, humans are in some ways like machines, our bodies running on chemical reactions producing, amongst other things, electricity. In some ways like a battery, but no matter what we do, eventually that battery wears out, and just stops.

If we can't detect the afterlife, and there isn't any real evidence for it for us to interpret, why would we believe it exists besides we want it to be true. I would very much like there to be something after death, but for me, that desire alone is not enough for me to believe it exists.

 

[Aldebaran]

True, but we know she exists. Those who see her would be able to describe her to others who haven't seen her in real terms. No one has seen "God." It is wild speculation (at the very least) as to who or what he could be which is why there are so many contradictions surrounding the concept of "one God."

I was addressing her comment that most evidence suggests when we die it is the end. The only evidence that is used in making that claim is physical. Sure, we stop moving, life signs stop, and we decay. At least, our body does. What the bible addresses is the spiritual aspect. That's where the spiritual aspect comes in, the part that we can't see now, unless you look inward. That's why I ask her (and you) to think about what you really are. You're more than just a collection of cells and minerals. Also, beyond just being another animal, you have the ability to reason, to make decisions, to have values and morals, and to contemplate your own existence. When does any of those things come from water and dirt? It's never been something that we can put together in any laboratory either. Should we believe that this amazing ability we have happened out of sheer radomness?

Off the path a bit, I admire your piety though half saved. I remember "defending" my faith in a similar way at one time. I may not believe as you do but your sincerity seems genuine.

I was thinking about you last night after we had our interaction on the forum, and wondered if just maybe I would walk away from a belief in God as well. But from what I've seen and experienced so far, I just don't see it, and it makes me wonder if maybe you never saw enough during your time as a Christian to make you believe that it's real. Everyone has some sort of testimony about how they came to their faith in Christ. I'd be interested to know if there was anything specific that happened in your life to make you no longer believe. Was it just one thing, or many things over time?

I think I'll have to write up a testimony and post it on here. I know it will get belittled and I'll be mocked by about three dozen members here. But I've been starting to question things myself after what people have been telling me, so it got me to remembering just what made me start believing. I think it might even answer many of the questions people keep asking me. That might be wishful thinking though. Haha!

 

[Gladius]

Don't forget that this happens during the worst period of time on earth. So you may very well be dead by then anyway, if you're lucky.

But don't I turn into a zombie? Unless I'm cremated (wow, that would be a bummer, arising from the dead as a dust cloud).

 

[quatona]

Freodin was the one to bring up that phrase. I never expected it.

Your one liner post in response to me proved that - unless it is explicitly stated - you don´t get it when someone speaks hypothetically.

But it's funny that every word of mine is scrutinized to be used against me, but you guys in the atheist crowd can't take it when I use the same standard when responding to your posts.

It gets less funny when you don´t think of people of a "crowd" but of individuals.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If physical evidence is the only evidence you use, then that's the only conclusion you'll come to. Is there nothing more to a human being than what is physical? When someone looks at you, do they see everything there is about you? Aren't you more than just your body?

Of course, but brain science strongly indicates that mind and body are very tightly associated phenomena, like two sides of the same coin. The activity of the body is what makes one's mind possible. Without the body, the mind can no longer continue.

This isn't about denying the existence of mind, but of letting reality tell its own story instead of imposing our desires for immortality upon reality. Physical evidence is what tells that story, because all introspection can do is to tell you that such a thing as mind exists and what happens to be going on in your own mind, not the ultimate fate of minds or whether or not there is a God.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Lollerskates]

Question for the group: If you are an atheist, what would it take to convince you that there truly is "something" rather than "nothing"?

Or is it possible? (I have a feeling that some loathe the concept of God so much, they could watch the seas part & they would STILL find a reason to doubt.....)

death

 

[Deidre32]

I was addressing her comment that most evidence suggests when we die it is the end. The only evidence that is used in making that claim is physical. Sure, we stop moving, life signs stop, and we decay. At least, our body does. What the bible addresses is the spiritual aspect. That's where the spiritual aspect comes in, the part that we can't see now, unless you look inward. That's why I ask her (and you) to think about what you really are. You're more than just a collection of cells and minerals. Also, beyond just being another animal, you have the ability to reason, to make decisions, to have values and morals, and to contemplate your own existence. When does any of those things come from water and dirt? It's never been something that we can put together in any laboratory either. Should we believe that this amazing ability we have happened out of sheer radomness?



I was thinking about you last night after we had our interaction on the forum, and wondered if just maybe I would walk away from a belief in God as well. But from what I've seen and experienced so far, I just don't see it, and it makes me wonder if maybe you never saw enough during your time as a Christian to make you believe that it's real. Everyone has some sort of testimony about how they came to their faith in Christ. I'd be interested to know if there was anything specific that happened in your life to make you no longer believe. Was it just one thing, or many things over time?

I think I'll have to write up a testimony and post it on here. I know it will get belittled and I'll be mocked by about three dozen members here. But I've been starting to question things myself after what people have been telling me, so it got me to remembering just what made me start believing. I think it might even answer many of the questions people keep asking me. That might be wishful thinking though. Haha!

I have limited time to talk right now but I would like to read your testimony.

To be honest, I was very into my faith and prayer life. But I was indoctrinated as a young child into the faith, as many are. There are cultures who teach their children to hate America for example. When you are raised a certain way, you accept it as truth. When you start thinking objectively about it, you begin to question. It is comforting to believe that a higher power is looking out for us, but the truth is, there is no proof that one is. And I'm ok with that, now. If there is a god, and there could be, I just don't believe in the "version" that is portrayed in the bible. That doesn't mean I couldn't ever believe a god exists, if that makes sense. I appreciate your kindness that you have shown me through our discussions.