What would it take to disprove atheism?

[Deidre32]

By "important things", I guess things like the existence of God in the first place, Christ's sacrifice for our sin nature, and our fellowship with Him. Some denominations (I'm going to get some hate mail for this!) focus on Jesus's earthly mother and they pray to her rather than to God, or they focus on their gathering together on a certain day of the week, or they focus on eating only certain kinds of foods, etc. But in scripture, we see that the big focus is that we are born as sinners and need the gift of Christ's death and resurrection in order to be reunited with God. It's after midnight and I'm tired, so I may not be describing all this as well as I should be.



Christianity is actually not a "religion" as it normally is defined. Here's something I found that describes the difference better than I can:
Christianity is unique in the fact that it is the ONLY faith which is not a religion- as a 'religion'- by definition means "to be bound" by rules and regulations and rituals in order that one MAY attain salvation. (whatever their definition of salvation may be)
This is in stark contrast to the teachings of THE most anti-religious person there ever lived- Jesus the Christ.
Jesus taught that the truth would SET YOU FREE and that it would be faith ALONE in His sacrificial death and resurrection for our sins which would save us and NOT our good deeds.

"For it is by God's grace that you have been saved, through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God's GIFT, so that no one can boast about it." (Ephesians 2: 8-9).

I'm glad you brought that up about Jesus being anti religion. If Jesus existed, I just can't help but wonder how Christianity formed around a man who a) explicitly stated that he didn't liken himself to "god" and b) was against the trappings of religion. The Bible is not a historical reference, it is a book designed to lead people to Christianity. But as a Christian, one might assume it to be historical proof of Jesus being the "son of God."

 

[Deidre32]

See, I warned you.

Deidre, stay away from the boogeyman pushers, stay in the real world.

When God actually shows up then you can be expected to believe in her/it/him. Until then, they are of the same benefit to the world as Leprechauns.

Lol! I hear you. It's good to discuss ...think out loud so to speak, but there's no going "back" to believing what I once did. No worries.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Who's God? Where are these rules? I just see stories written by men.

Since no one answered my questions, I'll repost them here.

Who is God? Is he the guy described in the bible?

What are his rules? Are they the commandments from the bible?

And most importantly, if I find the idea of the Creator of the Universe delivering a message through an ancient book to be ridiculous, why would I ever pay any attention to the bible?

Like I said, I find the entire premise of God using the bible and relying on humans to deliver his message to be completely ridiculous. So how do you convince me?

All I see is people sharing stories from a book written by people and attributing the authority of God to it. I ain't buying it.

If God truly exists and truly wants to have a relationship with me (that also sounds pretty ridiculous to me), then he needs to find a better way of doing so.

Myself and many, many others are not convinced that the bible is actually God's message. If that's all he relies on to pass his message on, that is extremely inefficient and seems rather human to me.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm glad you brought that up about Jesus being anti religion. If Jesus existed, I just can't help but wonder how Christianity formed around a man who a) explicitly stated that he didn't liken himself to "god" and b) was against the trappings of religion.

Yes, he was anti-religion as far as the definition goes for being man-made. The reason Christianity (which bears His name) formed around Him is because He was the savior that the old testament prophets had written about through God's inspiration that they were all looking forward to coming in their future. He was the one that the old traditions of sacrifices looked toward. When He came, He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. How better to relate to us than to become human Himself. Otherwise, we could easily say that He can't relate to us because He never suffered as a human. But being whipped, beaten, spit on, and nailed to a cross until He died is far beyond what most of us will ever have to endure.

And yes, He was against the trappings of religion as well, in the sense of man-made rules. The religious leaders of the day, called Pharisees, were not spoken well of by Jesus: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! 25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like white washed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

 

[digitalgoth]

But being whipped, beaten, spit on, and nailed to a cross until He died is far beyond what most of us will ever have to endure.

You've never worked in IT have you.

[sniped]
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like white washed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

So why even listen to these chuckleheads?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Yes, he was anti-religion as far as the definition goes for being man-made. The reason Christianity (which bears His name) formed around Him is because He was the savior that the old testament prophets had written about through God's inspiration that they were all looking forward to coming in their future. He was the one that the old traditions of sacrifices looked toward. When He came, He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. How better to relate to us than to become human Himself. Otherwise, we could easily say that He can't relate to us because He never suffered as a human. But being whipped, beaten, spit on, and nailed to a cross until He died is far beyond what most of us will ever have to endure.

How can you say God cannot or would not be able to relate to human suffering or human experience if God is omnipotent and can do anything?

Besides that, the whole point of turning himself into a human to commit to self-sacrifice so he can amend one of his own rules seems a little made up, if you ask me.

 

[quatona]

How better to relate to us than to become human Himself. Otherwise, we could easily say that He can't relate to us because He never suffered as a human. But being whipped, beaten, spit on, and nailed to a cross until He died is far beyond what most of us will ever have to endure.

Just to return to divinity after three days. Sounds more like disaster tourism to me. Or like an incredibly rich man who lives with the homeless for a couple of days (not that there´s anything wrong with it, it´s a nice gesture, well meant and all - but voluntarily going there for a limited amount of time is just not the same as being thrown there.)

 

[Aldebaran]

Just to return to divinity after three days.

At least you acknowledge his divinity.

 

[Freodin]

At least you acknowledge his divinity.

Have you ever heard of the concept: "for the sake of the argument"?

 

[quatona]

At least you acknowledge his divinity.

I thought it was clear that I was speaking hypothetically.
But if you prefer, instead of considering the tenets of your theology, we can always have a conversation of the
"...God..." - "I don´t believe there´s a God" - "I do" - "I don´t"...
sort.
Seeing that you ignored the content of my post completely, and posted an at best irrelevant remark instead....

 

[Aldebaran]

Have you ever heard of the concept: "for the sake of the argument"?

I've heard of it, but didn't see it in Quatona's post, so it didn't appear to be for the sake of the argument.

 

[quatona]

I've heard of it, but didn't see it in Quatona's post, so it didn't appear to be for the sake of the argument.

So you are really expecting every non-believer to open their posts in response to theistic ideas with the disclaimer "For the sake of the argument..."?
Or are you just digging your hole ever deeper, just because you won´t admit that you said something stupid?

 

[Freodin]

I've heard of it, but didn't see it in Quatona's post, so it didn't appear to be for the sake of the argument.

I have asked a similar question in another thread... don't know if you saw it... so here it is again.

Considering that you claim to have been an atheist yourself (as a lot of other Christians do), and you don't seem to have the slightest idea of how atheists think or how to respond to their questions and objections... just what kind of atheist have you been?

It certainly must be quite different from my kind.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Still, my point continues to be ignored. Don't you know? The fate of my eternal soul is depending on whether you can answer my question or not.

Why would God rely on the bible (and subsequently, rely on humans) to deliver His message?

That's probably the biggest hang up I have with Christianity as a whole. That you worship an ancient manuscript and want me to also worship and follow this ancient manuscript depends wholly on whether God actually used this ancient manuscript to deliver His message or not.

 

[Aldebaran]

So you are really expecting every non-believer to open their posts in response to theistic ideas with the disclaimer "For the sake of the argument..."?
Or are you just digging your hole ever deeper, just because you won´t admit that you said something stupid?

Freodin was the one to bring up that phrase. I never expected it. But it's funny that every word of mine is scrutinized to be used against me, but you guys in the atheist crowd can't take it when I use the same standard when responding to your posts.

 

[Deidre32]

Still, my point continues to be ignored. Don't you know? The fate of my eternal soul is depending on whether you can answer my question or not.

Why would God rely on the bible (and subsequently, rely on humans) to deliver His message?

That's probably the biggest hang up I have with Christianity as a whole. That you worship an ancient manuscript and want me to also worship and follow this ancient manuscript depends wholly on whether God actually used this ancient manuscript to deliver His message or not.

excellent question.

and moreover, why does an almighty supernatural being need lil ole me to 'defend' him? seems like a man made creation...man likes to be idealized, worshipped, (look at celebs, etc) ...so it's not unthinkable to imagine that man creates a god in HIS image, and not the other way around.

 

[Chany]

Freodin was the one to bring up that phrase. I never expected it. But it's funny that every word of mine is scrutinized to be used against me, but you guys in the atheist crowd can't take it when I use the same standard when responding to your posts.

I don't recall an atheist making a claim that pretty much said "at least you believe in the Quran". Unless you were being sarcastic.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

excellent question.

and moreover, why does an almighty supernatural being need lil ole me to 'defend' him? seems like a man made creation...man likes to be idealized, worshipped, (look at celebs, etc) ...so it's not unthinkable to imagine that man creates a god in HIS image, and not the other way around.

Yes! Definitely.

It seems much more plausible that man is the Creator here.

I mean... look at all the things humans have imagined over the years. If a God exists, he would have infinite imagination and wisdom and power and perfect foresight. Didn't He see all this disagreement coming from a mile away? Couldn't He have thought of a more surefire way to get His extremely important message across?

Like I said, why would God ever rely on us, fallible sinners, to deliver His message of the highest importance? I don't even like relying on people to deliver my messages for me.

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes! Definitely.

It seems much more plausible that man is the Creator here.

I mean... look at all the things humans have imagined over the years. If a God exists, he would have infinite imagination and wisdom and power and perfect foresight. Didn't He see all this disagreement coming from a mile away? Couldn't He have thought of a more surefire way to get His extremely important message across?

Like I said, why would God ever rely on us, fallible sinners, to deliver His message of the highest importance? I don't even like relying on people to deliver my messages for me.

I've tried answering questions like this, but it always invites responses of "Why do you quote bible verses when we don't believe in the bible???" So in order for me to respond to a question like this, I have to explain it to you in ways that you don't believe even the basis of.

If you were to read the bible from front to back, you might notice that the story of human history is being told from the point of creation, to man falling into sin, to God showing us his nature, to Christ offering us a way out, to Christ giving instructions and the Holy Spirit for us to bring others to Christ and salvation. I'm willing to bet that you've already lost interest in what I'm saying at this point. Need I go into more detail, or would that be a waste of time?

 

[Aldebaran]

why does an almighty supernatural being need lil ole me to 'defend' him? seems like a man made creation...man likes to be idealized, worshipped, (look at celebs, etc) ...so it's not unthinkable to imagine that man creates a god in HIS image, and not the other way around.

He doesn't. In the future, during the tribulation period, there will be angels that do what God has given the church to do. This happens just before the end. Revelation 14:6--"And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people".

So it's not that he "needs" us to do anything, but he does ask us to. Just like a parent asking one of their children to do something. The parent isn't dependent on the child that way.