What would it take to disprove atheism?

[znr]

I'm not hostile toward science. However, I've been around the block a few hundred times, asked the tough questions, gone through several mental breakdowns, endured a lot of suffering...I do respect that God uses science, the arts, anything and everything to help us see God, but mostly, he uses the boring day to day monotony through people to reveal love. I'm not discouraging you, just sharing the other side of the coin, the very routine, boring side of "evidence".

I hope your "work" here is fruitful, sister.

It's okay, I don't mind your response! And I recognize that you could be right and I could be wrong.

I just don't think God is hostile to science that way. Proving God by science, to me, would be no different than proving Him by love, or by music, or by the arts. Science is an incredibly valuable tool for understanding existence, but it's not the only tool.... and I feel horrible for ANYONE who makes it their only tool!

 

[quatona]

Everyone acknowledges that the belief in atheism is real..... the question is if atheism itself is real.

It´s as real or unreal (depending on your definition of "real") as theism (or any other belief or conviction, or lack thereof is) is.

 

[quatona]

the belief in atheism

That´s word salad.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Everyone acknowledges that the belief in atheism is real..... the question is if atheism itself is real.

Ah! I see what happened. Slight miscommunication.

Well in that case,

Atheism is the belief that the universe doesn't need an intelligent creator for it's existence. It is literally non-belief in deities (gods). You know, characters like Zeus, Dionysus, Apollo, Ra, Yahweh, Allah, Thor, Odin, Neptune.... etc. Atheists consider these beings to be fictional. Many atheist will acknowledge that Christ was real but not divine. We basically don't subscribe to supernatural beliefs.

That definitely exists. There definitely are people who don't believe these beings to be real. I'm one of them.

But nobody knows what the ultimate truth of universal reality is or even if there is an ultimate truth to the universe. No one knows this. No one can know this. No one is even expected to know this to believe in something.

You can't prove to anyone but yourself that Christianity is really truly real. And that's all that matters. No one expects you to have to prove Christianity. Not even the greatest theologians in history could prove their beliefs to be the ultimate truth to the universe. That is a ridiculous expectation to have from atheists who only believe in what makes the most sense to them.

 

[Feldon]

I'm not hostile toward science. However, I've been around the block a few hundred times, asked the tough questions, gone through several mental breakdowns, endured a lot of suffering...I do respect that God uses science, the arts, anything and everything to help us see God, but mostly, he uses the boring day to day monotony through people to reveal love. I'm not discouraging you, just sharing the other side of the coin, the very routine, boring side of "evidence".

I hope your "work" here is fruitful, sister.

Thank you! You too!

 

[Feldon]

Ah! I see what happened. Slight miscommunication.

Well in that case,

Atheism is the belief that the universe doesn't need an intelligent creator for it's existence. It is literally non-belief in deities (gods). You know, characters like Zeus, Dionysus, Apollo, Ra, Yahweh, Allah, Thor, Odin, Neptune.... etc. Atheists consider these beings to be fictional. Many atheist will acknowledge that Christ was real but not divine. We basically don't subscribe to supernatural beliefs.

That definitely exists. There definitely are people who don't believe these beings to be real. I'm one of them.

But nobody knows what the ultimate truth of universal reality is or even if there is an ultimate truth to the universe. No one knows this. No one can know this. No one is even expected to know this to believe in something.

You can't prove to anyone but yourself that Christianity is really truly real. And that's all that matters. No one expects you to have to prove Christianity. Not even the greatest theologians in history could prove their beliefs to be the ultimate truth to the universe. That is a ridiculous expectation to have from atheists who only believe in what makes the most sense to them.

That's fair. I agree with most of what you said. Thank you.

Although I am open to the idea of Christianity being provable. Why? Because I believe it's true..... and given enough time, I think man will be able to prove truthful things. What can I say, I'm an optimist!

The book The Second Coming: A Love Story argues that if God is infinite, then it would be reasonable to assume that His actions would be, at least, symmetric, because an infinite Being would have efficiency in motion. His actions wouldn't be limited. It then "disproves" (LOL, using the term loosely) atheism this way:

Have you noticed that the sun & moon are identical in width & height? (Not literally of course. The moon is smaller than the earth and the sun VERY much bigger.) But here on earth, from this one precise spot in the entire cosmos, the sun & moon are so perfectly identical in height & width, they can literally take turns perfectly eclipsing the other. The two most blatantly obvious objects in the sky!

This doesn't seem like it's in accordance to the Law of Probability AT ALL. In fact, we've never found another planet in any solar system where this takes place.

Now.... if an infinitely wonderful God wanted to disprove a random universe, wouldn't it be a beautifully poetic way to do it by making the two most obvious symbols in the sky exactly equal????

(I know this won't change your mind. Just hope you find it fun to think about!)

 

[Golden Yak]

Have you noticed that the sun & moon are identical in width & height? (Not literally of course. The moon is smaller than the earth and the sun VERY much bigger.) But here on earth, from this one precise spot in the entire cosmos, the sun & moon are so perfectly identical in height & width, they can literally take turns perfectly eclipsing the other. The two most blatantly obvious objects in the sky!

This doesn't seem like it's in accordance to the Law of Probability AT ALL. In fact, we've never found another planet in any solar system where this takes place.

Now.... if an infinitely wonderful God wanted to disprove a random universe, wouldn't it be a beautifully poetic way to do it by making the two most obvious symbols in the sky exactly equal????

The moon was closer to the Earth in the past and therefore would have appeared larger than the sun. At some point in the future, it will be far enough from the Earth that it will appear smaller than the sun. What will that say about God then?

I think an easier way to disprove a random universe using the moon would be to make the moon a perfect cube. So far we know of nothing in nature that could result in such a celestial object.

 

[Feldon]

The moon was closer to the Earth in the past and therefore would have appeared larger than the sun. At some point in the future, it will be far enough from the Earth that it will appear smaller than the sun.

Yet here it is, right now in time-space, for you to enjoy in the sky. It's almost.... dare I say it.... miraculous?

 

[Gottservant]

Belief in atheism has as its root a rejection of God, which in essence is a rejection of causation in general, so beliefs that arise from this position, are usually not held with the idea that they can be easily boxed in in mind.

I'm just saying if you want to argue with it, be aware that it is usually more than just passingly irrational.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Belief in atheism has as its root a rejection of God, which in essence is a rejection of causation in general, so beliefs that arise from this position, are usually not held with the idea that they can be easily boxed in in mind.

I'm just saying if you want to argue with it, be aware that it is usually more than just passingly irrational.

We don't reject god. I wish I didn't have to tell people that so often.

 

[Gottservant]

you embrace the flesh, through unreason

God gives you a reason, but you reject it, therefore I said you do it through unreason

 

[znr]

Please stop. You're actually proving the unbelievers point. Shut up.

Gotta cure it medically

 

[Golden Yak]

Yet here it is, right now in time-space, for you to enjoy in the sky. It's almost.... dare I say it.... miraculous?

Will it stop being miraculous in the future when it appears smaller than the sun?

 

[Freodin]

Have you noticed that the sun & moon are identical in width & height? (Not literally of course. The moon is smaller than the earth and the sun VERY much bigger.) But here on earth, from this one precise spot in the entire cosmos, the sun & moon are so perfectly identical in height & width, they can literally take turns perfectly eclipsing the other. The two most blatantly obvious objects in the sky!

This doesn't seem like it's in accordance to the Law of Probability AT ALL. In fact, we've never found another planet in any solar system where this takes place.

That would be really amazing... if it was true.

But it isn't. The angular size of sun and moon is not "perfectly identical". It is only almost identical... close enough to make these spectacular eclipses possible.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

That's fair. I agree with most of what you said. Thank you.

Although I am open to the idea of Christianity being provable. Why? Because I believe it's true..... and given enough time, I think man will be able to prove truthful things. What can I say, I'm an optimist!

That's fine. I have no problem with you believing it to be true. I don't doubt you believe it to be provable or you wouldn't believe it was really true.

The book The Second Coming: A Love Story argues that if God is infinite, then it would be reasonable to assume that His actions would be, at least, symmetric, because an infinite Being would have efficiency in motion. His actions wouldn't be limited. It then "disproves" (LOL, using the term loosely) atheism this way:

Ok. God can do anything without physical limitations.

Have you noticed that the sun & moon are identical in width & height? (Not literally of course. The moon is smaller than the earth and the sun VERY much bigger.) But here on earth, from this one precise spot in the entire cosmos, the sun & moon are so perfectly identical in height & width, they can literally take turns perfectly eclipsing the other. The two most blatantly obvious objects in the sky!

As Golden Yak pointed out, the moon used to be closer to the earth and is now moving away from the earth so they weren't always so perfectly identical in appearance and they won't be in the future.

Though it is pretty cool that we get to see the best eclipses in solar system.

This doesn't seem like it's in accordance to the Law of Probability AT ALL. In fact, we've never found another planet in any solar system where this takes place.

Ah! But you're only looking at a tiny corner of a small section of one arm of a GIGANTIC GALAXY. Full of solar systems. Literally BILLIONS of stars, many (most?) with planets orbiting around them. Many of the planets in most of those solar systems, with moons orbiting around them.

Surely, at least one other planet must have a similar apparent moon size to star size ratio as ours. That's not even looking outside of our galaxy to the rest of the universe where the odds of there being a similar planet/moon/star scenario to ours increase astronomically.

Now.... if an infinitely wonderful God wanted to disprove a random universe, wouldn't it be a beautifully poetic way to do it by making the two most obvious symbols in the sky exactly equal????

I don't think the universe is completely random. But I also don't think it's non-randomness is guided by an intelligent being.

(I know this won't change your mind. Just hope you find it fun to think about!)

I really do! I came here because these are topics I enjoy discussing but don't get to talk about too often IRL.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Will it stop being miraculous in the future when it appears smaller than the sun?

I'd say its a miracle if anyone is still around to see it then.

 

[Feldon]

That's fine. I have no problem with you believing it to be true. I don't doubt you believe it to be provable or you wouldn't believe it was really true.

Ok. God can do anything without physical limitations.

As Golden Yak pointed out, the moon used to be closer to the earth and is now moving away from the earth so they weren't always so perfectly identical in appearance and they won't be in the future.

Though it is pretty cool that we get to see the best eclipses in solar system.

Ah! But you're only looking at a tiny corner of a small section of one arm of a GIGANTIC GALAXY. Full of solar systems. Literally BILLIONS of stars, many (most?) with planets orbiting around them. Many of the planets in most of those solar systems, with moons orbiting around them.

Surely, at least one other planet must have a similar apparent moon size to star size ratio as ours. That's not even looking outside of our galaxy to the rest of the universe where the odds of there being a similar planet/moon/star scenario to ours increase astronomically.

I don't think the universe is completely random. But I also don't think it's non-randomness is guided by an intelligent being.

I really do! I came here because these are topics I enjoy discussing but don't get to talk about too often IRL.

You know what's interesting? Our moon is unusually large. Scientific theory is that the reason is, it wasn't a captured satellite like the moons of Mars, etc., but that a Mars-sized planetoid crashed into earth billions of years ago, to form the largest moon (proportionate to the size of its host planet) in the solar system by a very wide margin.

Of course, it seems that there are many benefits of an unusually large moon. Like, the moon's gravity absorbs many harmful asteroids that would otherwise pound the earth. And the moon's gravity helped slow the earth's spin, provided stability, tides, etc.

___

Of all the possible sizes that a moon & sun could appear to be from earth, if God is infinite, what a lovely thing to do -- make the two most obvious symbols in the sky appear so mindboggingly identical, they can literally take turns eclipsing the other!

 

[BL2KTN]

The moon absorbs some harmful asteroids, not the majority. It doesn't any special degree of stability... and the spin, tides, etc, aren't important to the existence of life (which is what I think you're getting at).

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That's fair. I agree with most of what you said. Thank you.

Although I am open to the idea of Christianity being provable. Why? Because I believe it's true..... and given enough time, I think man will be able to prove truthful things. What can I say, I'm an optimist!

The book The Second Coming: A Love Story argues that if God is infinite, then it would be reasonable to assume that His actions would be, at least, symmetric, because an infinite Being would have efficiency in motion. His actions wouldn't be limited. It then "disproves" (LOL, using the term loosely) atheism this way:

Have you noticed that the sun & moon are identical in width & height? (Not literally of course. The moon is smaller than the earth and the sun VERY much bigger.) But here on earth, from this one precise spot in the entire cosmos, the sun & moon are so perfectly identical in height & width, they can literally take turns perfectly eclipsing the other. The two most blatantly obvious objects in the sky!

This doesn't seem like it's in accordance to the Law of Probability AT ALL. In fact, we've never found another planet in any solar system where this takes place.

Now.... if an infinitely wonderful God wanted to disprove a random universe, wouldn't it be a beautifully poetic way to do it by making the two most obvious symbols in the sky exactly equal????

(I know this won't change your mind. Just hope you find it fun to think about!)

I think that's a bit silly. Perhaps it proves that the Moon God is jealous of the Sun God, so he positions himself in the sky in such a way as to completely eclipse the sun.

 

[Feldon]

The moon absorbs some harmful asteroids, not the majority. It doesn't any special degree of stability... and the spin, tides, etc, aren't important to the existence of life (which is what I think you're getting at).

Respectfully disagree. The moon is littered with an awful lot of asteroids (which we can see because of the lack of erosion / tectonics) that might've otherwise connected on our world. It certainly seems that impact asteroids play a role in mass extinctions, so that's important. And the spins & tides have absolutely played a major role in how life has evolved on earth. For example, with heavier winds / faster rotation, a lot of the life forms on earth could not have successfully evolved....

Not saying the moon is responsible for the creation of life, but it is (at least partially) responsible for life as we know it.