What would it take for non-RC Christians to join the RCC?

[Albion]

Still a majority doesn't make something correct just that the majority agree. As far as being literate especially in the area of scripture that would make sense people are seeking to hear what the scriptures say rather than use them to confirm what they already believe.

Maybe you can find some theory that absolutely NO ONE, and certainly no scholar, actually believes. Grab onto it, because it would meet your test of truth.

 

[Open Heart]

All of it that runs contrary to scripture [prayer to the saints, prayers for the dead, &c.].

Do you realize that both of these are one liners in Catholic liturgy? In fact, prayers to the saints is usually not mentioned at all (it's part of the general confession, which is usually replaced by the Kyrie). So you want to nix the entire liturgy based on problems with one maybe two lines?

 

[Open Heart]

Still a majority doesn't make something correct just that the majority agree. As far as being literate especially in the area of scripture that would make sense people are seeking to hear what the scriptures say rather than use them to confirm what they already believe.

Language comprehension is a different matter. If the majority doesn't get it right, then there is a serious problem with the language skills of the person who said it. The whole ability of the human race to communicate depends upon the ability of the vast majority to communicate their ideas well and the majority to understand them.

 

[concretecamper]

In addition to the fact that the majority religion is continually in a process of shifting its doctrines so that what was once believed and taught firmly by the majority (e.g. Purgatory) is now altered to an entirely new doctrine (happy cleansing like a shower).

Ah....another false claim. You can take this opportunity to back up this claim if you can

 

[Albion]

In addition to the fact that the majority religion is continually in a process of shifting its doctrines so that what was once believed and taught firmly by the majority (e.g. Purgatory) is now altered to an entirely new doctrine (happy cleansing like a shower).

That's right, but of course these outdated teachings are never repudiated because that would call into question that other denominational claim to fame ("the church that has never changed"). So the change is just instituted without a formal declaration...and the old doctrine ignored.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't think it is pleasant for most. I Cor 3:15 says, "If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames." The rich man in Purgatory longed for just a drop of water on his tongue.

Context, context, please.

I Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In I Corinthians 3 Paul is talking about the works one does in life, not the person. The person is not being burned or suffering torment, so it does not describe Purgatory at all.

In Luke the rich man did not go to Purgatory, nor did Jesus say a word about Purgatory. The poor man went to Abraham's bosom, which is a euphemism for heaven, and the rich man went to hell where he was tormented by the flames of hell.

You will need to do better with your definition. I will make it easier for you. You can choose either A. or B. as the Catholic definition of Purgatory -

A. A place where almost all Catholics go after death to suffer torment and pain to atone for their temporal sins. After sufficient suffering for their sins they are released to go to heaven.

B. A brief state where the Catholic soul is cleansed from its temporal sins. The process is like taking a refreshing shower to clean oneself before entering heaven.

 

[bbbbbbb]

How many doctrines/dogmas have been changed since the formation of the RCC? Thks

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-rcc-born-in-313-ad.7330134/

.......But the simple, humble Christian church was soon to undergo radical change.
In 313 AD the Emperor of Rome, Constantine, declared himself to be a Christian. Although Constantine originally called for religious freedom, power corrupted that ideal, and soon Christianity became an absolute spiritual monarchy, with the pope as spiritual leader. The Roman Catholic Church was born.
Church organization and government became hierarchical and complex with strict laws and creedal statements which church members were required to believe..................

There are lots of doctrines which have developed over time in the Catholic church. A few include the following:

1. Soteriology. Augustine laid the groundwork for Calvinism, but at the Reformation the Catholic church rejected Augustine's monergism and developed its soteriology of grace plus essential works.
2. Mary. Mary's role has steadily evolved from that of a particular human chosen by God to bear His Son to that of a demi-goddess with many of the attributes of a goddess.
3. The papacy. The role of the Pope has steadily evolved to its current position of papal supremacy.
4. The eucharist. The understanding of the eucharist has vacillated over time. It was not all that long ago that Catholics believed in genuine transubstantiation where the bread was transformed into actual, physical flesh and the wing was transformed into actual, physical blood. At present, the doctrine eliminates the physical aspect of the transformation, but retains the belief in the spiritual transformation.
5. Baptism. The doctrine of baptism has gone through a number of changes. One of the more interesting developments, IMO, is the baptism of desire.
6. The canon of scripture. At the Council of Trent the Catholic Church established its unique canon of the Bible, rejecting Jerome's canon of the OT and embracing the deuterocanonical books.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I was browsing the OBOB board and saw this thread concerning praying to a Saint for release of souls from purgatory......First I have ever heard of that.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...for-souls-in-purgatory.7897774/#post-68305965

It is one of the more peculiar aspects of the doctrine of Purgatory. If one repeats various prayers on behalf of a dead Catholic that person's time of suffering in Purgatory will be shortened. Also, you can make a "donation" to the Catholic church which hires various religious individuals, such as nuns and priests, to recited the prayers for you. You can also purchase (oops, make a donation) masses to be said for the departed soul.

There was a lady in Rhode Island whose was widowed early in life. Every day for decades she went to the cemetery and prayed over the grave of her husband. After many years the cemetery was closed because it was so small and the graves were relocated to a larger cemetery. To her utter shock and horror when they opened her husband's grave, there was another individual in it. She was incensed at the tought that she had failed in her efforts to relieve her husband's suffering and had actually aided a stranger. She sued the Church and prevailed.

 

[Berean777]

In Christ we are all ELijahs and Moses's

Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking of the beast, not the harlot. I always thought that the harlot was the city on seven hills (Rome) "And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth" and that the Beast was the anti-Christ (Nero). But what do I know.

Some websites back me up, and other catholic/preterist sites indicate that the harlot is jerusalem. But I could find none that stated she was a church.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-harlot-of-babylon -- Jerusalem
http://www.catholicbible101.com/thewhoreofbabylon.htm --Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon--Preterist opinions, both Jerusalem and Rome
http://planetpreterist.com/content/summary-harlot-babylon-revelation-17-18--Jerusalem, Old Covenant Israel

The vail was ripped into two, down the middle and thereby declaring the older women desolate and the younger women the legitimate bride of Christ. You very well know that in Jewish tradition when a husband leaves his wife, the ex-wife is considered a harlot by those who wonder to as to why he left her in the first place.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In addition to the fact that the majority religion is continually in a process of shifting its doctrines so that what was once believed and taught firmly by the majority (e.g. Purgatory) is now altered to an entirely new doctrine (happy cleansing like a shower).

So, please tell me is Purgatory a place of torment and woe where wayward Catholics pay for their temporal sins by means of dire torture until such time as they have been sufficiently atoned for and then they enter heaven or is it a brief moment in time during which one's temporal sins are pleasantly removed, much like taking a nice, warm shower to cleanse oneself?

In Christ we are all ELijahs and Moses's


The vail was ripped into two, down the middle and thereby declaring the older women desolate and the younger women the legitimate bride of Christ. You very well know that in Jewish tradition when a husband leaves his wife, the ex-wife is considered a harlot by those who wonder to as to why he left her in the first place.

Great post! I actually have a poll thread on that veil being rent in 2 over here, if you and others are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/which-veil-of-sanctuary-rent-in-two.7587119/

3 of the Gospel accounts show the veil of the Sanctuary rent in two.
Which 2 of those veils would be the one symbolized in this event?

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Young) Matthew 27:51 and lo, the veil of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent,

Young) Mark 15:38 and the veil of the sanctuary was rent in two, from top to bottom,

Young) Luke 23:45 and the sun was darkened, and the veil of the sanctuary was rent in the midst,


Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

Which veil is shown being rent in two?

1. the outer 1st veil
2. the inner 2nd veil
3. both
4. I havent' noticed that before
5. I am unsure
6. Does it matter?
7. Other

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's right, but of course these outdated teachings are never repudiated because that would call into question that other denominational claim to fame ("the church that has never changed"). So the change is just instituted without a formal declaration...and the old doctrine ignored.

Precisely!

 

[CalmRon]

Maybe you can find some theory that absolutely NO ONE, and certainly no scholar, actually believes. Grab onto it, because it would meet your test of truth.

That would make me either a prophet or a raging looney toon.

 

[ron4shua]

Which veil is shown being rent in two?

1. the outer 1st veil
2. the inner 2nd veil
3. both
4. I havent' noticed that before
5. I am unsure
6. Does it matter?
7. Other

24For Messiah has not entered into a Set-apart Place made by hand – figures of the true – but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf,

25not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Set-apart Place year by year with blood not his own.

26For if so, He would have had to suffer often, since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself.

27And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment,

28so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto deliverance.
^ -- each in their own time --- ^

Curtain number two , would be my answer !

 

[Open Heart]

In Luke the rich man did not go to Purgatory, nor did Jesus say a word about Purgatory.

Jesus talked about Gehenna. Gehenna was the word the Pharisees used to talk about a TEMPORARY place you went after death but before the resurrection. There you suffered for you sins if you were not righteous, or you didn't suffer if you were righteous. Thus the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a description of this Gehenna/Purgatory. Jews pray for the souls in Gehenna. Any time you see the word Gehenna in the gospels, think Purgatory.

 

[Open Heart]

You very well know that in Jewish tradition when a husband leaves his wife, the ex-wife is considered a harlot by those who wonder to as to why he left her in the first place.

What???? I know no such thing.

 

[Berean777]

What???? I know no such thing.

I am not speaking of the modern Jew today, but that of the Semitic branch in the Middle East who most certainly would perceive a women who is left by her husband as an unclean women. I know in today's society that would be ridiculous, but in those days it was completely different.

In the same way Joseph was at odds when thinking of letting Mary go, because he would risk her becoming labeled negatively by the Jewish people.

The fact regarding the women who elicits herself with the kings of the world, she prostitutes herself with the beastly kings of this world. Scripture points squarely at the levitical authority as the persecuting authority who would use Herod, then eventually Caesar to mandate a death sentence for Jesus and would later also commission Paul of tarsus the role of chasing the church from city to city and town to town to bring them before the Sanhedrin to be trialed.

There is only one persecuting power that used the beastly earthly kings to persecute the true bride of Christ and this was the desolate wife whom Christ had divorced because of her fornications.

That being the case the future mystery women who has daughters because remembering that the first century levitical harlot great Babylon had no daughters, yet this mystery women in the future has many daughters as to highlight that she is a religious power and from her branched out many religious daughters in her wake.

It doesn't mean that her daughters are unclean, though she is unclean because she just like the first century harlot also illicits with the beastly kings of the earth and no doubt prostitutes herself in the process. This religious authority is a false prophet in that it is depicted as the second beast who gives life to the revived first beast that was and wasn't in 70AD. This second beast is lamb/Christ like and so what exactly are we dealing with?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus talked about Gehenna. Gehenna was the word the Pharisees used to talk about a TEMPORARY place you went after death but before the resurrection. There you suffered for you sins if you were not righteous, or you didn't suffer if you were righteous. Thus the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a description of this Gehenna/Purgatory. Jews pray for the souls in Gehenna. Any time you see the word Gehenna in the gospels, think Purgatory.

I really don't know where you come up with this stuff. Here is the Wikipedia article on Gehenna - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

Unless you wish to limit it to a strict definition as being the garbage dump of Jerusalem where the garbage was continually burning, then the biblical usage of Gehenna as a synonym for the eternal fate of unsaved humanity in hell is the only other alternative.

Please pay attention to the list of verses in the article which clearly show its usage.

Thank you.

 

[ron4shua]

http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0001348

[ "the hell of fire," Matt. 5:22; ]

<1,,1067,geenna>
represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom (the valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word; it is found twelve times in the NT, eleven of which are in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself. He who says to his brother, Thou fool (see under FOOL), will be in danger of "the hell of fire," Matt. 5:22; it is better to pluck out (a metaphorical description of irrevocable law) an eye that causes its possessor to stumble, than that his "whole body be cast into hell," Matt. 5:29; similarly with the hand, Matt. 5:30; in Matt. 18:8,9, the admonitions are repeated, with an additional mention of the foot; here, too, the warning concerns the person himself (for which obviously the "body" stands in chapt. 5); in ver. 8, "the eternal fire" is mentioned as the doom, the character of the region standing for the region itself, the two being combined in the phrase "the hell of fire," ver. 9. To the passage in Matt. 18, that in Mark 9:43-47, is parallel; here to the word "hell" are applied the extended descriptions "the unquenchable fire" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched."
( FOOL ) http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0001089

 

[Open Heart]

I really don't know where you come up with this stuff.

I'm basing it on what I learned as an Orthodox Jew.

 

[tadoflamb]

4. The eucharist. The understanding of the eucharist has vacillated over time. It was not all that long ago that Catholics believed in genuine transubstantiation where the bread was transformed into actual, physical flesh and the wing was transformed into actual, physical blood. At present, the doctrine eliminates the physical aspect of the transformation, but retains the belief in the spiritual transformation.

That's so false even I can recognize it.