What would it take for non-RC Christians to join the RCC?

[bbbbbbb]

When it comes to scripture, and the issue is non catholic joining the catholic church, majority opinion isn't convincing enough; if we could speak to any of the reformer they probably say that. I'm not endorsing or condemning berean's view, just mentioning that the number of people hold onto traditional theology doesn't necessarily lend to its truthfulness.

In addition to the fact that the majority religion is continually in a process of shifting its doctrines so that what was once believed and taught firmly by the majority (e.g. Purgatory) is now altered to an entirely new doctrine (happy cleansing like a shower).

 

[miamited]

Majority opinion has never meant that opinion is correct. Its that kind of group think mentality that gets in the way of Jesus' words when he said narrow is gate and straight is the way that leads to life and there be few who find it.

Hi calm ron,

Gosh, I've been saying that for years. If we just look at the basic teaching of the Scriptures regarding those who will be saved, I don't think anyone can have any confidence that the majority, either of the total population of the world and also just of 'christians', will be saved. Jesus was pretty clear that on the day of his Father's judgment many would be crying out to him and describes them as being people who seemed to obviously identify themselves as christians. He says of them that their complaint will be that they did miracles in his name and prophesied in his name. I can't imagine that these people didn't identify themselves as christians if they were doing things in the name of Jesus.

Truth is absolutely not ever determined by the number of people who believe something. It is always and has always been... what is true. At one point, the Scriptures describe a deception that even the elect might fall victim to. To me, that sounds like a pretty prevalent and widely held belief in the deception. Even OH seems to believe that because Jesus told the disciples and the people he was speaking to that they had to do and observe all that the pharisees and teachers of the law told them to do, that then means that they must believe all that they told them, even though Jesus fairly clearly continues to explain to them that all that they do is for show and that they are not to be their teachers. That they chase after converts and then turn them into dogs of hell worse than themselves. It seems clear to me that this last rebuke is specifically warning that by believing what the pharisees and teachers of the law teach them once they are converted, is what turns them into dogs of hell.

Of course, we all have beliefs and those beliefs are always based on what we have convinced ourselves is the truth, whether it is or not.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Open Heart]

Please quote some credible references of these Christian scholars who say the Roman empire is a symbol of a women.

Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking of the beast, not the harlot. I always thought that the harlot was the city on seven hills (Rome) "And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth" and that the Beast was the anti-Christ (Nero). But what do I know.

Some websites back me up, and other catholic/preterist sites indicate that the harlot is jerusalem. But I could find none that stated she was a church.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-harlot-of-babylon -- Jerusalem
http://www.catholicbible101.com/thewhoreofbabylon.htm --Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon--Preterist opinions, both Jerusalem and Rome
http://planetpreterist.com/content/summary-harlot-babylon-revelation-17-18--Jerusalem, Old Covenant Israel

 

[WirSindBettler]

What would it take for me to join the RCC?

Not having to join the RCC.

 

[Open Heart]

When it comes to scripture, and the issue is non catholic joining the catholic church, majority opinion isn't convincing enough; if we could speak to any of the reformer they probably say that. I'm not endorsing or condemning berean's view, just mentioning that the number of people hold onto traditional theology doesn't necessarily lend to its truthfulness.

I'm not talking about the majority of people. I'm talking about the majority of scholars. The average person doesn't have the best reading comprehension. I know, I'm an educator. But the meaning of a sentence or paragraph is usually pretty clear to people who understand language and when the majority of scholars say it means a certain thing, I would be alarmed if I were in a minority opinion.

 

[Open Heart]

What would it take for me to join the RCC?

Not having to join the RCC.

cop out answer

 

[Open Heart]

In addition to the fact that the majority religion is continually in a process of shifting its doctrines so that what was once believed and taught firmly by the majority (e.g. Purgatory) is now altered to an entirely new doctrine (happy cleansing like a shower).

The Catholic Church still teaches Purgatory and always will.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Catholic Church still teaches Purgatory and always will.

So, please tell me is Purgatory a place of torment and woe where wayward Catholics pay for their temporal sins by means of dire torture until such time as they have been sufficiently atoned for and then they enter heaven or is it a brief moment in time during which one's temporal sins are pleasantly removed, much like taking a nice, warm shower to cleanse oneself?

 

[Open Heart]

So, please tell me is Purgatory a place of torment and woe where wayward Catholics pay for their temporal sins by means of dire torture until such time as they have been sufficiently atoned for and then they enter heaven or is it a brief moment in time during which one's temporal sins are pleasantly removed, much like taking a nice, warm shower to cleanse oneself?

I don't think it is pleasant for most. I Cor 3:15 says, "If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames." The rich man in Purgatory longed for just a drop of water on his tongue.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In addition to the fact that the majority religion is continually in a process of shifting its doctrines so that what was once believed and taught firmly by the majority (e.g. Purgatory) is now altered to an entirely new doctrine (happy cleansing like a shower).

How many doctrines/dogmas have been changed since the formation of the RCC? Thks

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-rcc-born-in-313-ad.7330134/

.......But the simple, humble Christian church was soon to undergo radical change.
In 313 AD the Emperor of Rome, Constantine, declared himself to be a Christian. Although Constantine originally called for religious freedom, power corrupted that ideal, and soon Christianity became an absolute spiritual monarchy, with the pope as spiritual leader. The Roman Catholic Church was born.
Church organization and government became hierarchical and complex with strict laws and creedal statements which church members were required to believe..................

If the Catholic Church only began at the time of Constantine then all of the supposed errors of the Catholic Church would only have emerged after A.D 300, or even 337 - when Constantine died. If that is the marker for when the Christian Church fell into error, then how can you trust the very Bible you put their faith in, since the canon of Scripture was not settled upon until about fifty years after the death of Constantine (at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo). In reading the ECF's you will see that Catholic practices and beliefs - such as the Eucharist, confession to a priest, papacy, etc - existed long before Constantine.

Also, if we were to accept this date of 313 AD as fact, then you would be forced to accept that God chose this late "invented" Church as the instrument for canonizing the New Testament, and such an act of God gives ultimate legitimacy to the Church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In addition to the fact that the majority religion is continually in a process of shifting its doctrines so that what was once believed and taught firmly by the majority (e.g. Purgatory) is now altered to an entirely new doctrine (happy cleansing like a shower).

The Catholic Church still teaches Purgatory and always will.

So, please tell me is Purgatory a place of torment and woe where wayward Catholics pay for their temporal sins by means of dire torture until such time as they have been sufficiently atoned for and then they enter heaven or is it a brief moment in time during which one's temporal sins are pleasantly removed, much like taking a nice, warm shower to cleanse oneself?

I was browsing the OBOB board and saw this thread concerning praying to a Saint for release of souls from purgatory......First I have ever heard of that.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...for-souls-in-purgatory.7897774/#post-68305965

St. Gertrude the Great is invoked for souls in purgatory and for living sinners. Our Lord told St. Gertrudethat the following prayer would release 1000 souls from purgatory each time it is said. The prayer was extended to include living sinners as well.

"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen."

 

[WirSindBettler]

cop out answer

You want a real one?

The Pope needs to give up his seat as Bishop of Rome.
Mary needs to be treated like the Bible says she should be.
Works-based salvation needs to go out the door.
The Episcopal structure needs to be retired.
The liturgy needs to be thrown out and rewritten.
The Bible needs to be seen as the inerrant and infallible word of God.
The RCC needs to stop saying that it is the only one true church.

Need I go on?

 

[Open Heart]

.......But the simple, humble Christian church was soon to undergo radical change.
In 313 AD the Emperor of Rome, Constantine, declared himself to be a Christian. Although Constantine originally called for religious freedom, power corrupted that ideal, and soon Christianity became an absolute spiritual monarchy, with the pope as spiritual leader. The Roman Catholic Church was born.
Church organization and government became hierarchical and complex with strict laws and creedal statements which church members were required to believe..................

You obviously got this from some anti-Catholic site. It is inaccurate.

How do you deal with Ignatius talking about the Catholic Church in 107 AD?

 

[WarriorAngel]

I was browsing the OBOB board and saw this thread concerning praying to a Saint for release of souls from purgatory......First I have ever heard of that.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...for-souls-in-purgatory.7897774/#post-68305965

Pray it - you will see in the end whom you helped.

 

[Open Heart]

The Pope needs to give up his seat as Bishop of Rome.
Mary needs to be treated like the Bible says she should be.
Works-based salvation needs to go out the door.
The Episcopal structure needs to be retired.
The liturgy needs to be thrown out and rewritten.
The Bible needs to be seen as the inerrant and infallible word of God.
The RCC needs to stop saying that it is the only one true church.

You gave a real answer, so thank you.

Do you realize we teach no works are necessary for INITIAL salvation?

So you think scripture is wrong in asking for the ordination of deacons, presbyters, and bishops?

What about the Liturgy do you want rewritten?

 

[WirSindBettler]

Do you realize we teach no works are necessary for INITIAL salvation?

So why is there a difference between initial salvation and salvation as a whole? Why are they not one and the same, and what Biblical evidence is there to back up this stance?

So you think scripture is wrong in asking for the ordination of deacons, presbyters, and bishops?

Show me within these scriptural commands any viewpoint which would in any way, shape, or form directly command episcopal structure as seen through supposed "apostolic succession" as the RCC claims is necessary, as opposed to say, Presbyterian or Congregational church polity.

What about the Liturgy do you want rewritten?

All of it that runs contrary to scripture [prayer to the saints, prayers for the dead, &c.].

 

[Open Heart]

I was browsing the OBOB board and saw this thread concerning praying to a Saint for release of souls from purgatory......First I have ever heard of that.

Prayers for those who have passed will help them, so of course the prayers of the saints will help them.

 

[Open Heart]

So why is there a difference between initial salvation and salvation as a whole? Why are they not one and the same, and what Biblical evidence is there to back up this stance?

No. Salvation as a whole, known to Protestants as sanctification, is our ongoing walk as Christians. We are exhorted by Scripture to do good works, to obey, to study, to pray... You get the idea. Ongoing salvation, or sanctification, is quite different from Initial salvation.

 

[Open Heart]

Show me within these scriptural commands any viewpoint which would in any way, shape, or form directly command episcopal structure as seen through supposed "apostolic succession" as the RCC claims is necessary, as opposed to say, Presbyterian or Congregational church polity.

In scripture, you will admit that there is the ordination of deacons, presbyters, and bishops. The first ones were ordained by the apostles, or by those ordained by the apostles. How this all worked out in the Church is revealed in the writings of the Apostolic Church Fathers (those taught by the apostles themselves, or taught by those taught by the apostles). One such writing is the Didache. Apostolic succession is clear. Clement and Ireneus also mention apostolic succession.

Can you name one presbyter during apostolic times who was not ordained by an apostle, bishop or presbyter?

 

[CalmRon]

I'm not talking about the majority of people. I'm talking about the majority of scholars. The average person doesn't have the best reading comprehension. I know, I'm an educator. But the meaning of a sentence or paragraph is usually pretty clear to people who understand language and when the majority of scholars say it means a certain thing, I would be alarmed if I were in a minority opinion.

Still a majority doesn't make something correct just that the majority agree. As far as being literate especially in the area of scripture that would make sense people are seeking to hear what the scriptures say rather than use them to confirm what they already believe.