What Would Falsify the Flood? (2)

[Mr Strawberry]

Again, you don't seem to get it. There is no choice that carries a threat of eternal punishment. The bible states all humans are bound for hell to begin with. The only choice is whether you want to accept God's pardon or not.

Ah yes, the famous god as the godfather scenario. Obviously it's a good way to terrify the children into believing, but adults ought to know better.

 

[EternalDragon]

Ah yes, the famous god as the godfather scenario. Obviously it's a good way to terrify the children into believing, but adults ought to know better.

Again with the faulty generalization. I know of plenty of people, myself included, that got saved as adults. What convinced me is God's great
love. Not the threat of hell which it clearly states was my destiny anyways.

A large sink hole has opened in the road ahead. You are driving that way.
I flag you down and warn you that if you don't change direction, you may
be hurt. So as an adult, should you know better than to listen to the warning? Or do you need to be a child to heed the warning? Do you realize how your statement sounds?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Again with the faulty generalization. I know of plenty of people, myself included, that got saved as adults. What convinced me is God's great
love. Not the threat of hell which it clearly states was my destiny anyways.

A large sink hole has opened in the road ahead. You are driving that way.
I flag you down and warn you that if you don't change direction, you may
be hurt. So as an adult, should you know better than to listen to the warning? Or do you need to be a child to heed the warning? Do you realize how your statement sounds?

Interesting that you claim it is god's love that compels your faith and then immediately follow it up with a warning about hell. Meanwhile you ignore the obvious problem of your religion being presented as a protection racket. As I say, this may frighten children, but adults ought to see through it.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Interesting that you claim it is god's love that compels your faith and then immediately follow it up with a warning about hell. Meanwhile you ignore the obvious problem of your religion being presented as a protection racket. As I say, this may frighten children, but adults ought to see through it.

I saw right through it even as a child.

The donkey transformation scene from Disney's Pinocchio, that was frightening.

 

[Black Akuma]

I saw right through it even as a child.

The donkey transformation scene from Disney's Pinocchio, that was frightening.

Pfft, that's nothing. I see your Pinnochio and raise you 'Brave Little Toaster'. That scene with all the disembodied parts in the shop still creeps me right out.

 

[dad]

It wasn't Gabriel who said that to Daniel. Try harder next time.

Oh? So was it another angel posing???!!



Gabriel Brings an Answer
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God, 21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, “O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.
The Seventy Weeks
24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet,

And what in the Koran contradicts this?

What in that book agrees with the only Son of God and Savior and Jesus as the One who is the way the truth and the life, and the only way to the Father?

 

[Queller]

A large sink hole has opened in the road ahead. You are driving that way.
I flag you down and warn you that if you don't change direction, you may
be hurt. So as an adult, should you know better than to listen to the warning? Or do you need to be a child to heed the warning? Do you realize how your statement sounds?

The problem with this analogy is that the driver doesn't have to take your word for it that the sinkhole exists. They can drive to it and see it for themselves. Whether they believe in sinkholes or not is irrelevant as they can SEE the big hole in the ground.

The non-believer has to take your word for it, or at least accept the possibility, that God exists to begin exploring it for themselves.

 

[Gracchus]

Did I claim that? No. Many things made it into this state. Man for example. The world for another. The issue is how we look at what we have. So, we do see continents separated. Whatever the reason, and however long it took, and whatever laws were in place.
We do see a Grand Canyon. So, if a huge lake drained and carved it out, as I think Walt suggests, it should be in line with what we see. He thought iit was. I don't see anyone here making a counter case..so?

The problem with this analogy is that the driver doesn't have to take your word for it that the sinkhole exists. They can drive to it and see it for themselves. Whether they believe in sinkholes or not is irrelevant as they can SEE the big hole in the ground.

The non-believer has to take your word for it, or at least accept the possibility, that God exists to begin exploring it for themselves.

Moreover, the driver is familiar with people who flag down motorists warning of sinkholes, but only want to collect money.
We are all too familiar with ignorant, arrogant, irrational, religious persons who have been warning folks about the imminent return of Jesus and the end of the world for over two thousand years. Don't you get it? Religious people have zero credibility.
Moreover, the case against the flood has been made, the case against talking snakes and magic trees has been made, and no case for "different state past" has been made, only an assertion by someone obviously ignorant of the basic methods and findings of science. The case against an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent deity who commits horrors, and genocides and absurdities, who demands that his adherents beg and grovel and flatter, doesn't need to be made.

 

[Queller]

Moreover, the driver is familiar with people who flag down motorists warning of sinkholes, but only want to collect money.
We are all too familiar with ignorant, arrogant, irrational, religious persons who have been warning folks about the imminent return of Jesus and the end of the world for over two thousand years. Don't you get it? Religious people have zero credibility.
Moreover, the case against the flood has been made, the case against talking snakes and magic trees has been made, and no case for "different state past" has been made, only an assertion by someone obviously ignorant of the basic methods and findings of science. The case against an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent deity who commits horrors, and genocides and absurdities, who demands that his adherents beg and grovel and flatter, doesn't need to be made.

Wow, I don't think I have ever been quoted in the same post as dad and that includes several years on another site. Kind of makes me feel ... uncomfortable is the nicest way I can put it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Oh? So was it another angel posing???!!

Look again -- the "Gabriel" in question is clearly identified as a man, not an angel.


21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.

What in that book agrees with the only Son of God and Savior and Jesus as the One who is the way the truth and the life, and the only way to the Father?

I didn't ask you what the book doesn't say, I asked what it says that contradicts the Bible.

 

[EternalDragon]

The problem with this analogy is that the driver doesn't have to take your word for it that the sinkhole exists. They can drive to it and see it for themselves. Whether they believe in sinkholes or not is irrelevant as they can SEE the big hole in the ground.

The non-believer has to take your word for it, or at least accept the possibility, that God exists to begin exploring it for themselves.

So the alternative is that there is no sink hole and nothing happens.
What if the person doing the flagging down has seen the future and
the sink hole will open up just as the guys car is over top of it?

Wouldn't it be wise to listen and change course even if you are not sure
if it is there? I am more or less meaning hell, not the sink hole.

 

[Queller]

So the alternative is that there is no sink hole and nothing happens.

No, the alternative is that the driver can see for himself whether there is a sinkhole or not.

What if the person doing the flagging down has seen the future and
the sink hole will open up just as the guys car is over top of it?

Now you're asking the driver to believe that the person is psychic? This is an improvement to your analogy?

Wouldn't it be wise to listen and change course even if you are not sure
if it is there? I am more or less meaning hell, not the sink hole.

I understand what you mean but why should the driver believe you? What if there is another guy on the other side of the road that says he has foreseen that if the driver listens to you and changes course the way you want him to, his car will be hit by a meteor from space?

What does the driver do now?

 

[EternalDragon]

No, the alternative is that the driver can see for himself whether there is a sinkhole or not.

Now you're asking the driver to believe that the person is psychic? This is an improvement to your analogy?

I understand what you mean but why should the driver believe you? What if there is another guy on the other side of the road that says he has foreseen that if the driver listens to you and changes course the way you want him to, his car will be hit by a meteor from space?

What does the driver do now?

Consult other eyewitnesses or listen to the guy that actually fell in and came back?

 

[Queller]

Consult other eyewitnesses or listen to the guy that actually fell in and came back?

What other eyewitnesses? You've already stated that the one guy has foreseen the sinkhole opening up underneath the driver's car so it doesn't exist yet.

Make up your mind. Does the sinkhole already exist or not? If it exists the driver can go see it for himself. If it doesn't exist yet, there are no other eyewitnesses or people that have already fallen in.

And what happens when the guy who says a meteor will hit you shows you his astronomy pictures of the meteor on its way?

 

[dad]

Look again -- the "Gabriel" in question is clearly identified as a man, not an angel.

When an angel appears to a man, how do you think he may appear, as a chipmunk!!??

21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.

The One who sent Gabriel also appeared "as" a man if you look at the previous chapter.

I didn't ask you what the book doesn't say, I asked what it says that contradicts the Bible.

Never read it. It does seem to me that those who do somehow do not get the message that Christ was the son of God and savior and only way. You think I am imagining things?

Maybe a muslim or former muslim can field that query.

 

[dad]

Moreover, the driver is familiar with people who flag down motorists warning of sinkholes, but only want to collect money.
We are all too familiar with ignorant, arrogant, irrational, religious persons who have been warning folks about the imminent return of Jesus and the end of the world for over two thousand years. Don't you get it? Religious people have zero credibility.

No idea what you are blathering about. Somehow the sinkhole thing sunk some time ago.

Moreover, the case against the flood has been made,

Strawman. They never addressed the real flood or actual past, and what we would expect.

the case against talking snakes and magic trees has been made,

False. Like you could address man with a superior ability at one time of a communication ability we do not now possess. Get serious man.

and no case for "different state past" has been made,

God made one. No one here can begin to dispute it.

only an assertion by someone obviously ignorant of the basic methods and findings of science.

Yet you can not name any such methods that support you here.

The case against an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent deity who commits horrors, and genocides and absurdities, who demands that his adherents beg and grovel and flatter, doesn't need to be made.

I find that His gift of everlasting life is worthwhile. To the wicked, God will show Himself that way. Sorry He seems that way to you.

 

[TLK Valentine]

When an angel appears to a man, how do you think he may appear, as a chipmunk!!??

When a man appears to a man, how do you think he may appear, as an angel?

Never read it. It does seem to me that those who do somehow do not get the message that Christ was the son of God and savior and only way.

But you've never actually read it, so what do you know?

You think I am imagining things?

Continually...

Maybe a muslim or former muslim can field that query.

As long as you concede that you can't.

 

[Atheos canadensis]

It does not matter what I believe but what matters is what scripture states. You can read it yourself. That is the best course you can take.

You've tried this already. I asked you to answer whether physical torment occurred in Hell. So you quoted the bible, I pointed out that it talked about being tormented in fire then you questioned the literalness of that fire. I don't know why you're so afraid to articulate your opinion on the subject of your own faith. The stakes aren't high. Worst case scenario here is you fail to convince an atheist he should be afraid of Hell. So why not just answer in your own words? Physical torment in Hell, yes or no?

Again, you don't seem to get it. There is no choice that carries a threat of eternal punishment. The bible states all humans are bound for hell to begin with. The only choice is whether you want to accept God's pardon or not.

Choosing to believe the Bible is a free choice. Choosing to accept the pardon is a free choice. Choosing another religion altogether or no religion is a free choice.

Irrelevant. Call it whatever you like, when you tell someone that the only two options are the Bible or Hell the choice is not balanced. It doesn't matter to whether their decision condemns them to Hell or not choosing the Bible fails to save them from continuing on the path to Hell they were already on.

No one is forcing anyone to believe anything, certainly not me.

I wouldn't say forcing, but you aren't offering a balanced choice.

 

[dad]

When a man appears to a man, how do you think he may appear, as an angel?

Often angels appeared as men. For example, visiting Abraham on the way to Sodom.

But you've never actually read it, so what do you know?

Well, if you think anyone knows that that book glorifies Christ as the only way to God the Father and the only savior or mankind, and the only way, the only truth and the only light, boy do I have a bridge to sell you.

As long as you concede that you can't.

Finding one would save me time.

However, this should do er.


"Muslims believe that Allah alone is the one true deity. He has neither mother nor father; similarly, he has no sons or daughters. He is not a Trinity; he is not the God of the Old Testament; and he is not the God of Christianity. Allah, according to Islam, is the god of all humanity.
Muslims believe in all the “Messengers and Prophets of Allah.” According to Islamic literature, Allah sent thousands of prophets (Jesus being one), but Mohammed is the greatest of them all.
Muslims believe in “the Revelations and the Koran.” They believe the Koran is the most holy book. Islam also recognizes other sacred writings, including the original manuscripts of the Bible. But Muslims claim that all other holy writings have been corrupted and tainted by translation and copyist errors. Only the Koran is pure, and every word of the Koran is the word of Allah, as given directly to Mohammed.
Muslims believe in the angels of Allah. They believe angels are created beings that have no material or physical needs. Angels require neither food nor drink. The angels are inferior to Allah but superior to humans, and they may be either good or evil.
Muslims believe in a day of judgment. Muslims believe all the dead will be raised to stand trial before Allah, and they will be judged according to their works. It is hoped by most Muslims that if a person follows Islam and does enough good deeds to outweigh the bad, Allah may allow such a person to enter paradise rather than sending that person to hell. But there are no guarantees of this. One’s ultimate destiny is subject solely to the will of Allah. In Islam, there is no atonement for sin or promise of forgiveness, and no assurance of any kind — except for those who die in jihad. Those people, martyrs, are guaranteed eternal life in paradise.
Muslims believe in “Qadaa and Qadar.” These Arabic words signify Allah’s timeless knowledge and power to execute his plans. Islamic determinism goes far beyond the biblical doctrine that God is ultimately sovereign over all, working all things together for good. Instead, Islamic predestinarianism amounts to a kind of fatalistic determinism, where everything that occurs — both good and evil — is thought to come directly from the hand of Allah.
Muslims also have five duties, known as the pillars of Islam. Islam itself is said to be built on these five “pillars”:

1. The first duty is the recitation of the Islamic declaration of faith, known as the Shahadah.
2. The second duty is prayer five times a day.
3. A third duty is charity (known as Zakat).
4. A fourth duty is the annual fast — actually a month of fasting — called Ramadan.
5. A fifth duty, required of every Muslim at least once in his life (unless it is utterly impossible by some restraint), is a pilgrimage to Mecca, called the hajj.
​

Islam is fundamentally and irreconcilably opposed to biblical Christianity. Islam teaches that Jesus Christ was a mere man–a prophet, and not God incarnate. Islam also denies that Jesus died on a cross. Obviously, if Christ did not die on the cross, He did not have to rise from the dead; so Islam denies the resurrection, too.
Islam further teaches that no one can have salvation but a Muslim. Even though a Muslim can never know whether he has salvation, only Muslims can have it in the end.
Much more could be said, but clearly, Islam and Christianity are mutually exclusive. Both claim to be the only true way to God. Both cannot be right."


Understanding Islam

 

[TLK Valentine]

Often angels appeared as men. For example, visiting Abraham on the way to Sodom.

Deceptive, aren't they? But it still doesn't change that fact that men always appear as men.

Well, if you think anyone knows that that book glorifies Christ as the only way to God the Father and the only savior or mankind, and the only way, the only truth and the only light, boy do I have a bridge to sell you.

But that wasn't the question -- you're arguing against what it doesn't say because you've already admitted that you don't know the first thing about what it does say.

"Muslims believe that Allah alone is the one true deity. He has neither mother nor father; similarly, he has no sons or daughters. He is not a Trinity; he is not the God of the Old Testament; and he is not the God of Christianity. Allah, according to Islam, is the god of all humanity.
Muslims believe in all the “Messengers and Prophets of Allah.” According to Islamic literature, Allah sent thousands of prophets (Jesus being one), but Mohammed is the greatest of them all.
Muslims believe in “the Revelations and the Koran.” They believe the Koran is the most holy book. Islam also recognizes other sacred writings, including the original manuscripts of the Bible. But Muslims claim that all other holy writings have been corrupted and tainted by translation and copyist errors. Only the Koran is pure, and every word of the Koran is the word of Allah, as given directly to Mohammed.
Muslims believe in the angels of Allah. They believe angels are created beings that have no material or physical needs. Angels require neither food nor drink. The angels are inferior to Allah but superior to humans, and they may be either good or evil.
Muslims believe in a day of judgment. Muslims believe all the dead will be raised to stand trial before Allah, and they will be judged according to their works. It is hoped by most Muslims that if a person follows Islam and does enough good deeds to outweigh the bad, Allah may allow such a person to enter paradise rather than sending that person to hell. But there are no guarantees of this. One’s ultimate destiny is subject solely to the will of Allah. In Islam, there is no atonement for sin or promise of forgiveness, and no assurance of any kind — except for those who die in jihad. Those people, martyrs, are guaranteed eternal life in paradise.
Muslims believe in “Qadaa and Qadar.” These Arabic words signify Allah’s timeless knowledge and power to execute his plans. Islamic determinism goes far beyond the biblical doctrine that God is ultimately sovereign over all, working all things together for good. Instead, Islamic predestinarianism amounts to a kind of fatalistic determinism, where everything that occurs — both good and evil — is thought to come directly from the hand of Allah.
Muslims also have five duties, known as the pillars of Islam. Islam itself is said to be built on these five “pillars”:

1. The first duty is the recitation of the Islamic declaration of faith, known as the Shahadah.
2. The second duty is prayer five times a day.
3. A third duty is charity (known as Zakat).
4. A fourth duty is the annual fast — actually a month of fasting — called Ramadan.
5. A fifth duty, required of every Muslim at least once in his life (unless it is utterly impossible by some restraint), is a pilgrimage to Mecca, called the hajj.

​

So far, no contradictions.

Islam is fundamentally and irreconcilably opposed to biblical Christianity. Islam teaches that Jesus Christ was a mere man–a prophet, and not God incarnate. Islam also denies that Jesus died on a cross. Obviously, if Christ did not die on the cross, He did not have to rise from the dead; so Islam denies the resurrection, too.

And where is this in the Koran?

Islam further teaches that no one can have salvation but a Muslim. Even though a Muslim can never know whether he has salvation, only Muslims can have it in the end.
Much more could be said, but clearly, Islam and Christianity are mutually exclusive. Both claim to be the only true way to God. Both cannot be right."

Same question.