What Would Falsify the Flood? (2)

[TLK Valentine]

One could hardly blame him since all of science does the same.

So Walt's just plain wrong, then?

 

[dad]

So Walt's just plain wrong, then?

He is closer than science. He may even be right on some basics. The grand canyon coming from a post flood lake drain, for example. We would need to see if it jives with the evidence.

 

[TLK Valentine]

He is closer than science. He may even be right on some basics. The grand canyon coming from a post flood lake drain, for example. We would need to see if it jives with the evidence.

How can any of it jive with the evidence if you claim the evidence only existed in a different state past?

 

[dad]

How can any of it jive with the evidence if you claim the evidence only existed in a different state past?

Did I claim that? No. Many things made it into this state. Man for example. The world for another. The issue is how we look at what we have. So, we do see continents separated. Whatever the reason, and however long it took, and whatever laws were in place.
We do see a Grand Canyon. So, if a huge lake drained and carved it out, as I think Walt suggests, it should be in line with what we see. He thought iit was. I don't see anyone here making a counter case..so?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Did I claim that? No. Many things made it into this state. Man for example. The world for another. The issue is how we look at what we have. So, we do see continents separated. Whatever the reason, and however long it took, and whatever laws were in place.
We do see a Grand Canyon. So, if a huge lake drained and carved it out, as I think Walt suggests, it should be in line with what we see. He thought iit was. I don't see anyone here making a counter case..so?

Here is the problem with a massive flow of water cutting the canyon. If the sediments are soft they will not make vertical walls of any appreciable height:


Mass-Wasting


In fact wet sediments form very low angles of repose:

"When the material becomes saturated with water, the angle of repose is reduced to very small values and the material tends to flow like a fluid. This is because the water gets between the grains and eliminates grain to grain frictional contact."

So there goes the claim of wet unconsolidated sediments. You can't have fast erosion that way.

Worse yet, the incised meanders in hard rock show that it took a very very long time to form the canyon:

AS River Rejuvenation

The combination of both elements in the Grand Canyon shows that the cutting of the Grand Canyon was not a slow process at all.

 

[Gracchus]

We do see a Grand Canyon. So, if a huge lake drained and carved it out, as I think Walt suggests, it should be in line with what we see. He thought iit was. I don't see anyone here making a counter case..so?

Here is what you would see if a huge lake suddenly drained. The channeled scablands of eastern Washington:
Channeled Scablands

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Drumheller Channels


The Channeled Scablands are a barren, relatively soil-free landscape in eastern Washington, scoured clean by a flood unleashed when a large glacial lake drained.[1] They are a geologically unique erosional feature in the U.S. state of Washington. They were created by the cataclysmic Missoula Floods that swept periodically across eastern Washington and down the Columbia River Plateau during the Pleistocene epoch.

Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




There is no evidence of a lake and the head of the Grand Canyon, but there are entrenched (or incised meanders), evidence of a mature stream cutting slowly down as the land rises around it.

Incised meanders[edit]

Main article: Entrenched river

Glen Canyon, USA


If the slope of an established meandering stream is suddenly increased, it will resume downward erosion – this happens when the base level of the stream is reduced, for example due to tectonic uplift of the region, a global fall in sea-level, collapse of a moraine-dammed lake downstream, or by capture of the stream by a steeper one. As the stream erodes downwards, its established meandering pattern will remain as a deep valley known as an incised meander or entrenched meander. Rivers in the Colorado Plateau and streams in the Ozark Plateau are noted for these incised meanders.

Meander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, dad, now you see someone making a counter case, with citations, pictures and actual geology. And we don't have to postulate any mysterious "different state past", so we have shaved rather close with Occam's Razor.

There is more, if you remain unconvinced.

 

[dad]

Here is the problem with a massive flow of water cutting the canyon. If the sediments are soft they will not make vertical walls of any appreciable height:


Mass-Wasting


In fact wet sediments form very low angles of repose:

"When the material becomes saturated with water, the angle of repose is reduced to very small values and the material tends to flow like a fluid. This is because the water gets between the grains and eliminates grain to grain frictional contact."

So there goes the claim of wet unconsolidated sediments. You can't have fast erosion that way.

Worse yet, the incised meanders in hard rock show that it took a very very long time to form the canyon:

AS River Rejuvenation

The combination of both elements in the Grand Canyon shows that the cutting of the Grand Canyon was not a slow process at all.

By Jove, you could be onto something. If indeed Wallt was correct, and the lake did cut the canyon, then we would not have had a consistency of mass in rock, and the same gravity in effect that we now have. Your present state modeling seems to show that!

Walt did not seem to think it was a slow process either!


What is now 'hard rock' is hard because we are in this state. If the fundamental properties of matter were different, then the meanders are just fine for a fast process!

You once again tried to apply the present state in the unknown state past!! try to be careful of that mistake. It's a biggie.

 

[Gracchus]

We do see a Grand Canyon. So, if a huge lake drained and carved it out, as I think Walt suggests, it should be in line with what we see. He thought iit was. I don't see anyone here making a counter case..so?

Here is what you would see if a huge lake suddenly drained. The channeled scablands of eastern Washington:
Channeled Scablands

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Drumheller Channels


The Channeled Scablands are a barren, relatively soil-free landscape in eastern Washington, scoured clean by a flood unleashed when a large glacial lake drained.[1] They are a geologically unique erosional feature in the U.S. state of Washington. They were created by the cataclysmic Missoula Floods that swept periodically across eastern Washington and down the Columbia River Plateau during the Pleistocene epoch.

Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




There is no evidence of a lake and the head of the Grand Canyon, but there are entrenched (or incised meanders), evidence of a mature stream cutting slowly down as the land rises around it.

Incised meanders[edit]

Main article: Entrenched river

Glen Canyon, USA


If the slope of an established meandering stream is suddenly increased, it will resume downward erosion – this happens when the base level of the stream is reduced, for example due to tectonic uplift of the region, a global fall in sea-level, collapse of a moraine-dammed lake downstream, or by capture of the stream by a steeper one. As the stream erodes downwards, its established meandering pattern will remain as a deep valley known as an incised meander or entrenched meander. Rivers in the Colorado Plateau and streams in the Ozark Plateau are noted for these incised meanders.

Meander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, dad, now you see someone making a counter case, with citations, pictures and actual geology. There is more, if you remain unconvinced.

 

[Subduction Zone]

By Jove, you could be onto something. If indeed Wallt was correct, and the lake did cut the canyon, then we would not have had a consistency of mass in rock, and the same gravity in effect that we now have. Your present state modeling seems to show that!

Walt did not seem to think it was a slow process either!


What is now 'hard rock' is hard because we are in this state. If the fundamental properties of matter were different, then the meanders are just fine for a fast process!

You once again tried to apply the present state in the unknown state past!! try to be careful of that mistake. It's a biggie.

No , the meanders are not fine for a fast process. The steep canyon walls are not fine for a fast process. What on Earth led you to that incredibly foolish claim?

I know, you have nothing so you are grasping at nonexistent straws.

I provided evidence, you still have provided none.

Without evidence you lose dad.

 

[Gracchus]

We do see a Grand Canyon. So, if a huge lake drained and carved it out, as I think Walt suggests, it should be in line with what we see. He thought iit was. I don't see anyone here making a counter case..so?

Here is what you would see if a huge lake suddenly drained. The channeled scablands of eastern Washington:

Channeled Scablands
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Drumheller Channels
The Channeled Scablands are a barren, relatively soil-free landscape in eastern Washington, scoured clean by a flood unleashed when a large glacial lake drained.[1] They are a geologically unique erosional feature in the U.S. state of Washington. They were created by the cataclysmic Missoula Floods that swept periodically across eastern Washington and down the Columbia River Plateau during the Pleistocene epoch.
Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no evidence of a lake and the head of the Grand Canyon, but there are entrenched (or incised meanders), evidence of a mature stream cutting slowly down as the land rises around it.

Incised meanders[edit]
Main article: Entrenched river

Glen Canyon, USA
If the slope of an established meandering stream is suddenly increased, it will resume downward erosion – this happens when the base level of the stream is reduced, for example due to tectonic uplift of the region, a global fall in sea-level, collapse of a moraine-dammed lake downstream, or by capture of the stream by a steeper one. As the stream erodes downwards, its established meandering pattern will remain as a deep valley known as an incised meander or entrenched meander. Rivers in the Colorado Plateau and streams in the Ozark Plateau are noted for these incised meanders.
Meander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, dad, now you see someone making a counter case, with citations, pictures and actual geology. There is more, if you remain unconvinced.

 

[dad]

Here is what you would see if a huge lake suddenly drained. The channeled scablands of eastern Washington:
Channeled Scablands

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Drumheller Channels


The Channeled Scablands are a barren, relatively soil-free landscape in eastern Washington, scoured clean by a flood unleashed when a large glacial lake drained.[1] They are a geologically unique erosional feature in the U.S. state of Washington. They were created by the cataclysmic Missoula Floods that swept periodically across eastern Washington and down the Columbia River Plateau during the Pleistocene epoch.

Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excellent. I'd like to take some kids on a field trip there for a good example and study of what a lake draining in this state is like.

There is no evidence of a lake and the head of the Grand Canyon, but there are entrenched (or incised meanders), evidence of a mature stream cutting slowly down as the land rises around it.

You could have something there. If the draining of the lake did happen, and happen at the time of the continental uplifting and movement, that well could be a factor also!! Could it have been uplifting rapidly AS the water was cutting the channel in the different consistency former state!!!!!!??? We may be onto something.

If the slope of an established meandering stream is suddenly increased,

No need if the land was uplifting too.

... Rivers in the Colorado Plateau and streams in the Ozark Plateau are noted for these incised meanders.

Then that could tell us that there was no uplift happening in these places and times, when the erosion took place. Isn't real geology fun?

So, dad, now you see someone making a counter case, with citations, pictures and actual geology.

Yes. Well done. I need co researchers. It all fits a DSP like a glove.

There is more, if you remain unconvinced.

Bring it! Hopefully we can also learn stuff from it like we did here!

 

[dad]

Here is what you would see if a huge lake suddenly drained. The channeled scablands of eastern Washington:
Channeled Scablands

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Drumheller Channels


The Channeled Scablands are a barren, relatively soil-free landscape in eastern Washington, scoured clean by a flood unleashed when a large glacial lake drained.[1] They are a geologically unique erosional feature in the U.S. state of Washington. They were created by the cataclysmic Missoula Floods that swept periodically across eastern Washington and down the Columbia River Plateau during the Pleistocene epoch.

Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excellent. I'd like to take some kids on a field trip there for a good example and study of what a lake draining in this state is like.

There is no evidence of a lake and the head of the Grand Canyon, but there are entrenched (or incised meanders), evidence of a mature stream cutting slowly down as the land rises around it.

You could have something there. If the draining of the lake did happen, and happen at the time of the continental uplifting and movement, that well could be a factor also!! Could it have been uplifting rapidly AS the water was cutting the channel in the different consistency former state!!!!!!??? We may be onto something.

If the slope of an established meandering stream is suddenly increased,

No need if the land was uplifting too.

... Rivers in the Colorado Plateau and streams in the Ozark Plateau are noted for these incised meanders.

Then that could tell us that there was no uplift happening in these places and times, when the erosion took place. Isn't real geology fun?

So, dad, now you see someone making a counter case, with citations, pictures and actual geology.

Yes. Well done. I need co researchers. It all fits a DSP like a glove.

There is more, if you remain unconvinced.

Bring it! Hopefully we can also learn stuff from it like we did here!

 

[Subduction Zone]

dad has no evidence for what is clearly a delusional past state. His only excuse for it is that if that were not the case the Bible would be wrong and he won't accept that.

Which is rather silly to say the least. There is a prediction that Tyre would be obliterated over 2,000 years ago to the point of never being found again. By reading the verse it was clear that this was supposed to happen then, not some obscure time in the future. Tyre can still be found. He still defends that. In fact if you want a laugh read up on the history of Tyre and then read some apologists try to defend what is perhaps the worst failed prophesy in the Bible.

When people are in denial this deep there is no helping them.

 

[Gracchus]

We do see a Grand Canyon. So, if a huge lake drained and carved it out, as I think Walt suggests, it should be in line with what we see. He thought iit was. I don't see anyone here making a counter case..so?

Here is what you would see if a huge lake suddenly drained: The channeled scablands of eastern Washington.

The Channeled Scablands are a barren, relatively soil-free landscape in eastern Washington, scoured clean by a flood unleashed when a large glacial lake drained.[

But what we do see in the Grand Canyon and other canyons on the Colorado Plateau are entrenched (or incised) meanders.

Incised meanders[edit]

Main article: Entrenched river

Glen Canyon, USA


If the slope of an established meandering stream is suddenly increased, it will resume downward erosion – this happens when the base level of the stream is reduced, for example due to tectonic uplift of the region, a global fall in sea-level, collapse of a moraine-dammed lake downstream, or by capture of the stream by a steeper one. As the stream erodes downwards, its established meandering pattern will remain as a deep valley known as an incised meander or entrenched meander. Rivers in the Colorado Plateau and streams in the Ozark Plateau are noted for these incised meanders

 

[EternalDragon]

dad has no evidence for what is clearly a delusional past state. His only excuse for it is that if that were not the case the Bible would be wrong and he won't accept that.

Which is rather silly to say the least. There is a prediction that Tyre would be obliterated over 2,000 years ago to the point of never being found again. By reading the verse it was clear that this was supposed to happen then, not some obscure time in the future. Tyre can still be found. He still defends that. In fact if you want a laugh read up on the history of Tyre and then read some apologists try to defend what is perhaps the worst failed prophesy in the Bible.

When people are in denial this deep there is no helping them.

The original Tyre is gone. Not sure why you are still in denial.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The original Tyre is gone. Not sure why you are still in denial.

Not really, and it did not follow the prophecy. It was predicted that Nebuchadnezzar, the head of many armies would destroy Tyre, the island city, not the mainland settlements, to the point that we could never find it again. I can quote you the appropriate verses. The prophecy did not say that some later person would attack and defeat Tyre, that was a given considering its past. We can still see the original site of Tyre today. There are still ancient ruins that were not totally destroyed.

Frankly no one would want to live in one of those ancient buildings today. Cities always build over themselves to an extent. Tyre was never defeated as predicted. It is a terribly failed prophesy. Apologists quite often lie. Here is an honest report:


Edward T. Babinski - Biblical Errancy: Ezekiel's Prophecy of Tyre: a failed prophecy

 

[EternalDragon]

Not really, and it did not follow the prophecy. It was predicted that Nebuchadnezzar, the head of many armies would destroy Tyre, the island city, not the mainland settlements, to the point that we could never find it again. I can quote you the appropriate verses. The prophecy did not say that some later person would attack and defeat Tyre, that was a given considering its past. We can still see the original site of Tyre today. There are still ancient ruins that were not totally destroyed.

Frankly no one would want to live in one of those ancient buildings today. Cities always build over themselves to an extent. Tyre was never defeated as predicted. It is a terribly failed prophesy. Apologists quite often lie. Here is an honest report:


Edward T. Babinski - Biblical Errancy: Ezekiel's Prophecy of Tyre: a failed prophecy

Anything that disagrees with your viewpoint is a lie?

Did it ever occur to you to open your eyes?

 

[Paulos23]

Excellent. I'd like to take some kids on a field trip there for a good example and study of what a lake draining in this state is like.

If you head out there you should check out Ginko Petrified Forest as well.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Anything that disagrees with your viewpoint is a lie?

Did it ever occur to you to open your eyes?

No, not everything. The problem is that certain groups do tend to lie. Those are mainly religiously motivated groups that do not handle any threat to their beliefs logically.

 

[EternalDragon]

No, not everything. The problem is that certain groups do tend to lie. Those are mainly religiously motivated groups that do not handle any threat to their beliefs logically.

There is no threat here. Most Christians openly are aware and discuss
all possibilities.

Most home schooled Christians also are exposed to both sides.

What I have seen from this forum is a lot of hatred and
intolerance towards the Creationists/Christians view points.