What Would Convert You to Creationism?

[CryptoLutheran]

Fallacy of substitution

Evolution is not a scientific law

A scientific "law" is simply a statement that under X circumstances Y happens, it's a summation of something observed numerous times. Laws are, by their nature, not impregnable absolute statements of universal scientific reality--as is demonstrated by the fact that, for example, that Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation is not universally true.

A theory, on the other hand, is a working description of the processes of how natural phenomenon work, time and again.

A scientific theory does not *become* a scientific law once it has been proven. That is simply now how it works.

A scientific theory is what it is and either it's true or it's false, if it's proven false then it is discarded, if it is true it remains a theory.

A scientific law, on the other hand, is simply a generic principle that seems to hold true under the appropriate circumstances.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

I would have to lose my mind.

 

[theFijian]

I would have to lose my mind.

Not a helpful contribution to the discussion

 

[lucaspa]

Fallacy of substitution

Evolution is not a scientific law

Only because scientists no longer use the term "law". Laws are nothing more than very well-established theories. Laws often are mathematical, but then, so is the theory of General Relativity.

Evolution is as well-supported as any of the "laws" and better supported than some of them (such as Newton's "laws" of gravitation).

Scientists stopped calling new theories "laws" at the end of the 19th century. This trend was confirmed when Einstein showed that Newton's "laws" were just special cases of Relativity. If you have noticed, none of the major theories proposed in the 20th century ever became a "law", and some of the theories previously called "laws" are called "principles" or "theory" now.

 

[Kid A]

Alot of us here debate with Creationists (usually without succes ...) about what it would take for them to believe in evolution. So out of interest, what would it take for the TEs here to start believing in Creationism? And if you did which form would you choose: Young Earth? Old Earth? Intelligent Design?

Scientific evidence. All fields of the scientific community that deal with evolution have come to a consensus that evolution occurred. Specifics are debated, but the actual process is not.

I believe God gave us the scientific method as a tool... we've discovered many truths with it. And truth stems only from God. In a way, it is by following the scientific method that we may discover the nature of God's universe - a gift given to us.

Also, the creation story stems directly from Babylonian myth, after Judean tribes were conquered by the Babylonians somewhere I believe around 800BC

 

[tyronem]

Scientific evidence. All fields of the scientific community that deal with evolution have come to a consensus that evolution occurred. Specifics are debated, but the actual process is not.

That is because atheist geologists look at rock layers and say, wow it rained dirt for billions of years covering all these things, then they say we know this is true because evolution is a fact. They use a circular reasoning to conclude evolution is fact because they first believe evolution is fact.

Biologists say wow look at the DNA similarity, this proves evolution is true because similarities in DNA prove common ancestry, we know this is true because evolution is a fact. Again circular reasoning.

All evolutionary products as it directly pertains to origins rely on this logical fallacy.

I believe God gave us the scientific method as a tool... we've discovered many truths with it. And truth stems only from God. In a way, it is by following the scientific method that we may discover the nature of God's universe - a gift given to us.

What is truth?

Also, the creation story stems directly from Babylonian myth, after Judean tribes were conquered by the Babylonians somewhere I believe around 800BC

No, it was written circa 6000 years ago by God's own hand - Genesis 1, then by Adam, then the generations of .....

Years later it was compiled by moses. Hundreds of years before 800BC

 

[Kid A]

That is because atheist geologists look at rock layers and say, wow it rained dirt for billions of years covering all these things, then they say we know this is true because evolution is a fact. They use a circular reasoning to conclude evolution is fact because they first believe evolution is fact.

Biologists say wow look at the DNA similarity, this proves evolution is true because similarities in DNA prove common ancestry, we know this is true because evolution is a fact. Again circular reasoning.

All evolutionary products as it directly pertains to origins rely on this logical fallacy.



What is truth?




No, it was written circa 6000 years ago by God's own hand - Genesis 1, then by Adam, then the generations of .....

Years later it was compiled by moses. Hundreds of years before 800BC

1) Ahh, but not all scientists are athiests. Many are, but there are plenty of believers too. And the study of evolution is far more complex (and documented as such) than how you describe it. I recommend you do some personal research on natural selection and gene mutation.

2) "What is truth" - Wonderful philosophical question. I would say it is the nature of God's beautiful universe - physically, morally, and spiritually.

3) I'd like to see some documented (with factual proof) evidence that I was wrong on the date, and I will rescind that claim if so.

 

[tyronem]

1) Ahh, but not all scientists are athiests. Many are, but there are plenty of believers too.

Quite true, and many of those believers believe in creation.

And the study of evolution is far more complex (and documented as such) than how you describe it. I recommend you do some personal research on natural selection and gene mutation.

lol, I don't think this forum allows long enough posts to describe it

I know a fair amount about natural selection and gene mutation / duplication, that essentially molecules to man evolution hangs on genes being duplicated then mutated to produce different things, ie hands and feet.

I'm also fully aware that this process is only possible in the providence and guidance of God because there is far too much "co-incidence" in this world for it not to have happened by God.

The difference is you think it evolved, I think God created it because He can and that is what scripture has revealed. I also think there is more than enough evidence around that contradicts evolution to discard it all together.

2) "What is truth" - Wonderful philosophical question. I would say it is the nature of God's beautiful universe - physically, morally, and spiritually.

I would say it is God and what He has chosen to reveal in scripture

3) I'd like to see some documented (with factual proof) evidence that I was wrong on the date, and I will rescind that claim if so.

There have been many studies done on this, from syntax and sentence structure to historical timelines.

Your criticism is Jahwist, which essentially came from belief in evolution (heh) and the belief that writing had not yet evolved at the time of moses was supposed to live. We of course now know this to be false.

Even Jesus Christ said Moses wrote what Moses wrote so to say otherwise is to call Christ a liar, something he cannot be nor ever will be! A serious consideration!
He also says this with a warning for He says that if you cannot believe what Moses wrote how could you ever believe Me (Christ). - Moses Edited / Compiled Genesis

These guys summarize it pretty well:

Did Moses really write Genesis?

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

I think the better question to ask is "Do I really need to convert to Creationism?"

How does believing in Creationism allow me to have a deeper relationship with God?

 

[gluadys]

Scientific evidence. All fields of the scientific community that deal with evolution have come to a consensus that evolution occurred. Specifics are debated, but the actual process is not.

I believe God gave us the scientific method as a tool... we've discovered many truths with it. And truth stems only from God. In a way, it is by following the scientific method that we may discover the nature of God's universe - a gift given to us.

Also, the creation story stems directly from Babylonian myth, after Judean tribes were conquered by the Babylonians somewhere I believe around 800BC

Judah became a tribute-paying nation subject to Babylon in 605 BCE. It rebelled in 599 BCE and was conquered (but not destroyed) by Nebuchadnezzar in 597 BCE. This was the time of the first deportation. When the puppet king rebelled, the Babylonian armies returned and finished the job in 586 BCE. This time the temple was pillaged and destroyed, the walls breached and torn down, and pretty well the whole surviving populace of Jerusalem was deported (except for some who fled to Egypt) leaving only the peasantry in the countryside.

However, the biblical creation story was likely composed earlier, as the Mesopotamian stories are much, much older and were well known throughout the Ancient Near East. Scholars today identify the older (Adam & Eve) story with the J writings believed to date possibly as early as 900BCE. And even that could rely on still older oral sources. The more recent (6 days) account is identified with the P source which most scholars date to the Exile or post-Exilic period, though some prefer a late pre-Exilic date--after the fall of Samaria in 722 BCE , but before the fall of Jerusalem.

This one probably does not have pre-existing oral sources. It reads too much like a single composition of a single author. It is very tightly and skillfully crafted. (Not to say that all P writings come from the same author.)

 

[gluadys]

Your criticism is Jahwist, which essentially came from belief in evolution (heh) and the belief that writing had not yet evolved at the time of moses was supposed to live. We of course now know this to be false.

I don't think anyone ever seriously questioned that writing had not been invented by the time of Moses. Writing clearly existed even before the usual dating of Noah.

Even Jesus Christ said Moses wrote what Moses wrote so to say otherwise is to call Christ a liar, something he cannot be nor ever will be! A serious consideration!

Not really. What Jesus did was refer to the Torah as "Moses", a very common usage in 1st-century Judaism. He did not actually say that the historical person Moses wrote the Torah.

The attribution of the Torah to Moses was made by the post-exilic rabbis. And this was where the practice of calling the Torah the Law (or teaching) of Moses,--or simply, "Moses"--came from.

 

[tyronem]

I don't think anyone ever seriously questioned that writing had not been invented by the time of Moses. Writing clearly existed even before the usual dating of Noah.

Yet that was the basis for the Jahwist conclusions

Not really. What Jesus did was refer to the Torah as "Moses", a very common usage in 1st-century Judaism. He did not actually say that the historical person Moses wrote the Torah.

The attribution of the Torah to Moses was made by the post-exilic rabbis. And this was where the practice of calling the Torah the Law (or teaching) of Moses,--or simply, "Moses"--came from.

No Christ is not deceitful, nor did he speak a single wrong word, He is God and as such is absolutely beyond reproach in what he says. Christ was accurate and he did not refer to the Pentateuch as Moses, He said Moses wrote of Him.

You are being true to the scripture though for you do not believe Moses and as such do not believe Christ when he says that Moses wrote of Him.

Matthew 22:24 "Moses said, 'If a man dies without children...'"
Mark 7:10 "For instance, Moses gave you this law from God..."
Mark 12:24 "...haven't you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush..."
Luke 24:44 "...I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true."
John 1:17 "For the law was given through Moses..."
John 5:46 "But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me. And since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"
John 7:23 "...do it, so as not to break the law of Moses..."
Passages elsewhere in the Christian Scriptures:
Acts 26:22 "...I teach nothing except what the prophets and Moses said would happen..."
Romans 10:5 "For Moses wrote..."


New International Version (©1984)
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

New Living Translation (©2007)
If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

International Standard Version (©2008)
because if you believed Moses, you would believe me, since he wrote about me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For if you had trusted Moses, you would also trust me, for he wrote about Me.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If you really believed Moses, you would believe me. Moses wrote about me.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

American King James Version
For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

American Standard Version
For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me.

Bible in Basic English
If you had belief in Moses you would have belief in me; for his writings are about me.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me.

Darby Bible Translation
for if ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me.

English Revised Version
For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me.

Webster's Bible Translation
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote concerning me.

Weymouth New Testament
For if you believe Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me.

World English Bible
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me.

Young's Literal Translation
for if ye were believing Moses, ye would have been believing me, for he wrote concerning me;

 

[shernren]

No Christ is not deceitful, nor did he speak a single wrong word, He is God and as such is absolutely beyond reproach in what he says. Christ was accurate and he did not refer to the Pentateuch as Moses, He said Moses wrote of Him.

You are being true to the scripture though for you do not believe Moses and as such do not believe Christ when he says that Moses wrote of Him.

That's exactly right, tyronem, Moses wrote the books of the Torah - and Jeremiah wrote the book of Zechariah:

Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me.” (Matt 27:9-10, ESV)

Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”-the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord, to the potter. (Zech 11:12-13, ESV)
​

 

[tyronem]

That's exactly right, tyronem, Moses wrote the books of the Torah - and Jeremiah wrote the book of Zechariah:

Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me.” (Matt 27:9-10, ESV)

Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”-the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord, to the potter. (Zech 11:12-13, ESV)
​

Thanks mate, it looks like I've stopped this thread dead in it's tracks, lol

 

[tyronem]

Looks like I stopped that thread dead in it's tracks so I'll have to claim victory as no-one can contradict Christ, therefore Moses did write the Pentateuch end of story

 

[Freedom63]

Alot of us here debate with Creationists (usually without succes ...) about what it would take for them to believe in evolution. So out of interest, what would it take for the TEs here to start believing in Creationism? And if you did which form would you choose: Young Earth? Old Earth? Intelligent Design?


For me? Aliens - or rather, how much the aliens resembled humans. If we did discover another inhabited planet, with human-like aliens (two eyes, two arms, two legs, walk upright, breathe oxygen etc.), an Earth-like atomosphere and Earth-like animals and plants, that would be a coincidence too far for me. Somebody must have planned it.

The nature of your question, along with your own conclusion, suggests that you believe evolution is totally left to chance. Believing God is active in the evolutionary process is not the same thing as intelligent design. I see no reason to eliminate the Theistic portion of Theistic Evolution.