What would Christians do if there were no bible?

[mva1985]

To build on your point Free – since when is the "leading of God" reduced to any of our vehicles – body, emotions, mind?

Spirit express through all of them. When they are in balance, Spirit expresses with more sophistication. A wider spectrum—so to speak.

My SDA education was extremely out-of-balance in the sense of being head-centric. I learned from some wonderful teachers later on in life how God's creative energy can move through our emotional bodies, if we develop them. When that happens, your emotions are a pristine center of intelligence. The Sufis understood this—the heart was the center of intelligence. Sound familiar from the New Testament?

I'm fairly certain Jesus wasn't head-centric!

When people find their feelings unreliable, it's often because they aren't very emotionally intelligent—so their perception of this "unreliability" is accurate. If the emotional body isn't functioning well, emotions tend to linger for a long time—often from an event where the person felt injured. Many people can have a difficult conversation and be affected for the entire day—or week! Or longer. And some emotionally sludgy people are carrying emotions around that did not originate in them—the emotions originated with someone else and leached across. (empathic)

In my experience, the most emotionally intelligent people don't appear emotional very often. When they express emotion, it's intense, quick, coherent, and clean. Almost as if their emotions had a translucent quality. Fast, blue light!

So, emotions are a wonderful way of experiencing truth. But for many people, not very reliable because their emotional body is not developed. That's OK – as long as you know it.

An even more challenging question is whether our spiritual vehicle is developed—or even if we have a sense of our spiritual anatomy.

Some of the terms and phrases you have used in this post and in some others sound very much like New Age terminology.

If you go back to the verse that I posted earlier. The Bible tells us not to lean on our own understanding. I take that to mean our intellectual understanding, not emotional.

"your emotions are a pristine center of intelligence." I personally find this very hard to believe.

 

[Eila]

If we do not have a standard to measure our thoughts and actions by what are we left with? Everything is relative?

I for one do believe that there are absolutes!

Why would following the leading of God be relative? He may work with one person on an issue before He starts working on another issue, but that doesn't mean that God's leading is relative. He has a plan for everyone and I don't believe there is a cookie-cutter way He goes about it.

While we do have emotions and emotions are not a bad thing to express, communion with God goes much deeper.

We are blessed to have the Bible and we can use it to test those who teach us whether they are apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, or teachers.

A child of God knows whom they follow and they recognize the voice. Can we survive and live and grow and Christians without the Bible? Yes, I believe so. Is not the voice of the Holy Spirit a standard to measure things against?

 

[freeindeed2]

If we do not have a standard to measure our thoughts and actions by what are we left with? Everything is relative?

I for one do believe that there are absolutes!

I agree that feelings are not a reliable standard to measure truth, but the Holy Spirit is not a feeling. He's God (fully). God living in us is not relativism. And besides, relativism is a false belief system that self-collapses. Relativism says "there are NO absolutes" and in the process establishes an absolute (there are no absolutes), but the theory says there are none.

God living IN us is far beyond simple feelings and emotions. He is absolute, he is truth, and HE is the standard. The Bible is about God, but God IS God, and he lives IN us. Does that make sense? Even if we didn't have the Bible, it wouldn't make God non-existant. It wouldn't mean that God couldn't communicate with us, influence us, save us, connect with us. The Bible is a tool and we are to use it to test those who claim to represent him. The Spirit convicts us what is true or not true, but most don't really give him (God) much credit for it. They would rather trust in themselves and the 'ability' to discern and interpret than trust God who lives IN them. Rambling...I'll stop.

I also believe there are absolutes, although man's understanding of them is extremely limited. We know SO little which is why we're commanded to trust God (Holy Spirit) who knows all and interacts with us on a spiritual level (not just with feelings).

 

[LightWorker1967]

Some of the terms and phrases you have used in this post and in some others sound very much like New Age terminology.

If you go back to the verse that I posted earlier. The Bible tells us not to lean on our own understanding. I take that to mean our intellectual understanding, not emotional.

"your emotions are a pristine center of intelligence." I personally find this very hard to believe.

It is not my intention for you to believe me - it's been helpful to me – so I shared it.

And I've enjoyed dialoging with you--but throwing the "New Age" card surprises me given the tone of your other posts toward me.

If I wanted to worship in a New Age community, I wouldn't be here. I respect the choices other people make and do not wish to persuade, liberate, or disrupt them.

I also post in the Progressive forum and not the Traditional forum for a reason.

Happy Sabbath!

 

[mva1985]

It is not my intention for you to believe me - it's been helpful to me – so I shared it.

And I've enjoyed dialoging with you--but throwing the "New Age" card surprises me given the tone of your other posts toward me.

If I wanted to worship in a New Age community, I wouldn't be here. I respect the choices other people make and do not wish to persuade, liberate, or disrupt them.

I also post in the Progressive forum and not the Traditional forum for a reason.

Happy Sabbath!

LightWorker,

While I am not trying to play any "card." I have run across some of the things you have shared in your posts in a different venue with someone else. It just seems to me, and in my experience that it has a New Age flavor.

I am certainly not trying to offend you, for you do seem like a nice and caring individual. A far cry from the other person that I ran into!

 

[mva1985]

I agree that feelings are not a reliable standard to measure truth, but the Holy Spirit is not a feeling. He's God (fully). God living in us is not relativism. And besides, relativism is a false belief system that self-collapses. Relativism says "there are NO absolutes" and in the process establishes an absolute (there are no absolutes), but the theory says there are none.

God living IN us is far beyond simple feelings and emotions. He is absolute, he is truth, and HE is the standard. The Bible is about God, but God IS God, and he lives IN us. Does that make sense? Even if we didn't have the Bible, it wouldn't make God non-existant. It wouldn't mean that God couldn't communicate with us, influence us, save us, connect with us. The Bible is a tool and we are to use it to test those who claim to represent him. The Spirit convicts us what is true or not true, but most don't really give him (God) much credit for it. They would rather trust in themselves and the 'ability' to discern and interpret than trust God who lives IN them. Rambling...I'll stop.

I also believe there are absolutes, although man's understanding of them is extremely limited. We know SO little which is why we're commanded to trust God (Holy Spirit) who knows all and interacts with us on a spiritual level (not just with feelings).

Free,

I will have to give this more thought before replying.

 

[freeindeed2]

To build on your point Free – since when is the "leading of God" reduced to any of our vehicles – body, emotions, mind?

Spirit express through all of them. When they are in balance, Spirit expresses with more sophistication. A wider spectrum—so to speak.

My SDA education was extremely out-of-balance in the sense of being head-centric. I learned from some wonderful teachers later on in life how God's creative energy can move through our emotional bodies, if we develop them. When that happens, your emotions are a pristine center of intelligence. The Sufis understood this—the heart was the center of intelligence. Sound familiar from the New Testament?

I'm fairly certain Jesus wasn't head-centric!

When people find their feelings unreliable, it's often because they aren't very emotionally intelligent—so their perception of this "unreliability" is accurate. If the emotional body isn't functioning well, emotions tend to linger for a long time—often from an event where the person felt injured. Many people can have a difficult conversation and be affected for the entire day—or week! Or longer. And some emotionally sludgy people are carrying emotions around that did not originate in them—the emotions originated with someone else and leached across. (empathic)

In my experience, the most emotionally intelligent people don't appear emotional very often. When they express emotion, it's intense, quick, coherent, and clean. Almost as if their emotions had a translucent quality. Fast, blue light!

So, emotions are a wonderful way of experiencing truth. But for many people, not very reliable because their emotional body is not developed. That's OK – as long as you know it.

An even more challenging question is whether our spiritual vehicle is developed—or even if we have a sense of our spiritual anatomy.

Many people I know really don't believe that the Spirit is God. They view 'it' more as a force of God that is unreliable at best. They don't trust 'it'. Listen to them speak of the Holy Spirit and you'll hear it even though they're paying lip-service to 'it'. It is common in Adventism, which is why many don't develop spiritually. Everything is cognitive and very little emphasis is placed on the spiritual part of man. We were created in the very image of God, body-Christ, mind-Father, spirit-Holy Spirit, yet Adventism has effectively reduced the spirit of man to simply 'breath'. Thusly, spiritual growth is slow and plateaus easily. (The Holy Spirit is not an 'it'.)

As far as feelings and emotions, they are important, yet I've seen them downplayed over the decades and throughout Adventist history. I've been criticized personally for appealing to emotions and feelings from the pulpit, yet it is an important part of who God created us to be. Christ was not afraid to express his emotions and let his feelings show throughout the accounts given to us in the Gospels. But often, when a pastor preaches the true Gospel it moves people and they 'emote' and they feel, because that is what happens naturally when God/Holy Spirit convicts them deep within. So emotions and feelings are neither bad or good, or right or wrong. They just are. But the Holy Spirit is not emotions and feelings. He's God! We experience them when God moves us, or disciplines us, or comforts us...but that doesn't mean they define God.

Don't know if my words are translating into typing correctly, but there they are. LOL.

 

[freeindeed2]

Free,

I will have to give this more thought before replying.

No prob. I enjoy discussing with you and am just exploring this topic with you...

Hmmm...that's two 'with you's' in the same sentence...lol

I just came off a three week trip and my brain feels fried. If anything I type can be taken two different ways and one of them seems offensive, I meant it the other way. I need sleep.

 

[LightWorker1967]

LightWorker,

While I am not trying to play any "card." I have run across some of the things you have shared in your posts in a different venue with someone else. It just seems to me, and in my experience that it has a New Age flavor.

I am certainly not trying to offend you, for you do seem like a nice and caring individual. A far cry from the other person that I ran into!

We have a choice now. We can be in relationship with each other, or I can leave and defer to you since you have been in this forum for such a long time and you clearly contribute a lot and find meaning in being here. (If there is anyone who has an impulse to write a harsh post to MVA in my defense—please don’t.)

What I don't want to do is be in the middle of a conversation that brings in your conversation with another person from another board. We've been just fine with each other so far—there and here. You think I'm a little New Age – that's fair. I think you’re a little uptight about the New Age! Let's keep on talking when there's a rub.

The life of Jesus would suggest that you and I can be at peace, disagree on some things, create new understanding by learning from each other—and just talk. Even if we are challenged by each other's ideas at times.

If we can't do this, both of us will have failed.

Thanks!

 

[mva1985]

We have a choice now. We can be in relationship with each other, or I can leave and defer to you since you have been in this forum for such a long time and you clearly contribute a lot and find meaning in being here. (If there is anyone who has an impulse to write a harsh post to MVA in my defense—please don’t.)

What I don't want to do is be in the middle of a conversation that brings in your conversation with another person from another board. We've been just fine with each other so far—there and here. You think I'm a little New Age – that's fair. I think you’re a little uptight about the New Age! Let's keep on talking when there's a rub.

The life of Jesus would suggest that you and I can be at peace, disagree on some things, create new understanding by learning from each other—and just talk. Even if we are challenged by each other's ideas at times.

If we can't do this, both of us will have failed.

Thanks!

I would never ask anyone to just defer to me. And the length of time I have been here is not relative - many have been here much longer then I.

I do agree that we can all learn from each other. But I still use and encourage others to use the Bible as their final standard.

I do believe that people can disagree and still remain friends, and would never ask you to leave the forum.

 

[mva1985]

No prob. I enjoy discussing with you and am just exploring this topic with you...

Hmmm...that's two 'with you's' in the same sentence...lol

I just came off a three week trip and my brain feels fried. If anything I type can be taken two different ways and one of them seems offensive, I meant it the other way. I need sleep.

I enjoy discussing with you as well.

I would agree that there are many times that the Holy Spirit (who I believe is equally God) moves us to emotion, and in many different ways.

For instance in the main forum I posted a little video about Logan. His call to a radio station moved me to have tears in my eyes.

Just sharing I guess.

 

[LightWorker1967]

I would never ask anyone to just defer to me. And the length of time I have been here is not relative - many have been here much longer then I.

I do agree that we can all learn from each other. But I still use and encourage others to use the Bible as their final standard.

I do believe that people can disagree and still remain friends, and would never ask you to leave the forum.

Done. Onward, forward.

I won't take your Bible away, I won't make you meditate, and I've already sent the crystal ball back I got for your birthday!

 

[honorthesabbath]

wait for god to give us new revelation

And in what FORM would He give it--again?

 

[honorthesabbath]

Follow the leading of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth.

And by what standard would you discern if the spirit leading was the right one?

 

[honorthesabbath]

Agreed. EGW's writings aren't in the Bible...

And neither were John the Bapists whom Jesus claimed was the greatest prophet born of a woman. Your point is?

 

[freeindeed2]

And by what standard would you discern if the spirit leading was the right one?

Are you testing God? Is the Holy Spirit not fully God? Did he ask us to test him?

 

[mva1985]

Done. Onward, forward.

I won't take your Bible away, I won't make you meditate, and I've already sent the crystal ball back I got for your birthday!

LOL!! I always try to keep my sense of humor handy as well.

Good post, Brother!

 

[Eila]

And by what standard would you discern if the spirit leading was the right one?

If you want an standard then I would say if you are following the Spirit that brought you to your need of a Savior and into the arms of Jesus then I would say you are following the correct Spirit.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

That question popped in my head as I was reading some comments from another thread here and in another forum.... what would christians do, how would they live if there was no bible? I am wondering cause it seems like we (generic christian we) scour the bible looking for what we should or should not do.... are we that clueless?

thoughts?

The Bible says that without the law we still have a moral law within us, right? That is how we would need to live by, and how we would be judged.

I lived for the first 16 years of my life without a Bible, and apart from making a few mistakes, I was an overall good kid, and someone even my mom came to for advice. Many of the principals that I live by now, are simply the same morals laws I lived by then..just a bit more magnified, and with the addition of some more (like sex being after marriage and such. I didn't agree with that before).

Of course, without a Bible would there even be Christians? Probably not. There'd be believers of a God, more than likely. I won't get picky, though.

 

[freeindeed2]

If you want an standard then I would say if you are following the Spirit that brought you to your need of a Savior and into the arms of Jesus then I would say you are following the correct Spirit.

Exactly! Why is there so much distrust of God who lives in us? Doubt...fear...people would rather trust their own discernment than the Holy Spirit who Jesus sent to ALL believers in him for salvation.