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What would be achieved if ‘Creation Science’ replaced ‘Evolution’ in biology lessons?

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Dracil

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BTW, isn't Jonathan Wells a moonie? If you don't know what that is, it's a cult. The Unification Church. I've heard they're quite popular around this area (Berkeley). Even saw one of their poster boards up once. They have mass marriages and their belief includes something about Jesus not finding his perfect wife the first time he was around... The word "moonie" comes from the name of Sun Myung Moon, who believes he's the Second Coming.
 
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lucaspa

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david_84 said:
Thank you. That is all I was trying to say.
You took him out of context.

This is undoubtably bad science, and I am sure it probably goes on all too often. At least this guy was honest enough to admit it. Anyone working or planning to work in science (which might include myself) must work to improve its general integrety - searching for truth and not trying to shoe-horn results into the theories we are trying to prove. Certainly, both creationists and evolutionists are guilty of this.

Now, what Yahweh Nissi didn't realize was that the quote by Sodeburgh was a bogus misquote of what he said.

Remember, you started this by saying in post #55:

Creationism is a falsified theory, like geocentrism is a falsified theory.
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"In regards to radiometric dating, the associate professor of geology of East Carolina University, Richard Mauger said, "In general, dates in the "correct ball park" are assumed to be correct and are published, but those in disagreement with other dates are seldom published nor are discrepancies fully explained." Seems like no one is above this falsification tactic."

LOL! I just now got it. You didn't understand what I was saying!

David, I am saying that creationism has been proved wrong. That is what "falsified" means in this context. Shown to be false. Not "made up" or "he falsified the accounting books."

Geocentrism is the theory that the earth is the center of the solar system. We know it is wrong. Creationism is the theory that the universe and all living creatures arose via a literal reading of Genesis. We know this is wrong, too.

Theories are statements about the physical universe. What we do is test those statements in an attempt to show them to be false/wrong. We have done this to creationism and failed to do this to evolution. That's what I was saying.

Yes, scientists have falsified data. Some still do. It's a stupid idea because you always get caught. That's because, to be science, the data has to be available to everyone. And eventually someone else is going to look at it and discover the fraud. Haeckel got caught at the time he did it. The reason his illustrations were used in textbooks for a long time was because there were no other comparative drawings of embryos that could be used. However, textbooks have used the drawings but not Haeckel's idea.

Now, the implication that evolution is built upon such made up data is wrong. The data set is huge. Run a PubMed search using the term "evolution" and see for yourself.

Don't you find it interesting that, of all Wells' examples, none of them come from Origin of the Species? He's not questioning the data that led Darwin and others to conclude evolution to begin with!

The issue is not whether isolated data is falsified in the sense that it was made up. The issue is whether creationism is a valid or wrong theory. Quote mining is not going to decide that issue. You have to look at the actual data. And implying that all the data is made-up isn't going to cut it. There is simply too much data.
 
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lucaspa

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Dracil said:
BTW, isn't Jonathan Wells a moonie? If you don't know what that is, it's a cult. The Unification Church. I've heard they're quite popular around this area (Berkeley). Even saw one of their poster boards up once. They have mass marriages and their belief includes something about Jesus not finding his perfect wife the first time he was around... The word "moonie" comes from the name of Sun Myung Moon, who believes he's the Second Coming.
Yes. Exactly right. And Wells went to graduate school under the orders of Moon to be a spy/saboteur. Wells has openly stated that he went to graduate school not to learn truth but so that he could fight evolution! Wells is lucky that, in science, spies are not executed as they are in other situations.
 
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lucaspa

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Dracil said:
I wonder... isn't saying "Evolutionism" like saying "Christianism"?
LOL! Nice one. It's the attempt by some creationists to make a religion out of evolution. Evolution is not a religion and it's particularly silly to try that in this forum.
 
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david_84

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I am saying that creationism has been proved wrong. That is what "falsified" means in this context. Shown to be false.

Whoa. From what I know of science and creationism I never would have guessed that that was what you meant. I would honestly be really interested in knowing how that statement can be justified. I don't believe I have ever been told by any evolutionist (theist or atheist) that creation has been proven wrong before. In fact, I have been confronted with the argument that creationism should not be taught as science in schools because science is falsifiable (can be proven wrong) and by it's nature, creationism can not be proven wrong. The basis for creationism is that there is a God who has the power, knowledge/wisdom, and motivation to create the universe and its inhabitants in a 144 hour period as creationists claim He did. Any time scientific evidence is brought against creationism, its supporters can respond: "God is omnipotent, He could have done it such and such a way." Even in the hypothetical event that the existence of God was disproven, that could be answered, "God has the power to make it scientifically verifiable that He does not exist, even though He does." This approach is not something that I am fond of in the least, but it should show why creationism cannot be disproven.

No doubt that certain claims made by creationists have been proven wrong; those concerning moon dust or the changing size of the sun, for example. But this does not disprove creationism itself.

And implying that all the data is made-up isn't going to cut it.

I apologize if I came off sounding like I think that every fact put forth by an evolutionist has no basis in reality. Being a former theistic evolutionist myself, I recognize that there is plenty of valid evidence in the defense of evolution.

You took him out of context.

Yeah. Somehow when I read that I got out of it that he said both creationists and evolutionists are guilty of trying to shoe-horn results into the theories they are trying to prove. Sorry, Yahweh Nissi.
 
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yamijoku

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Well to all the people who follow evolution but not trying to offend them:

adolf hitler was the most extreme evolutionist in the history of man kind! evolution is survival of the fittest and he found the Jewish people to be the lowest on the evolutionary chart (what happened to steriotypes?)

If you are extreme when it comes to evolution you are doing things that resemble adolf hitler's ways
 
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Yahweh Nissi

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yamijoku said:
Well to all the people who follow evolution but not trying to offend them:

adolf hitler was the most extreme evolutionist in the history of man kind! evolution is survival of the fittest and he found the Jewish people to be the lowest on the evolutionary chart (what happened to steriotypes?)

If you are extreme when it comes to evolution you are doing things that resemble adolf hitler's ways

Evolution is simply a theory about how and why (in a cause-effect sense, not a 'higher truth' sense) organisms have changed and developed - it is about "the origin of species". It says nothing about how humans aught to behave to one another. People will always try and use pseudo-science to back up their crazy theories, but that is their problem. You cannot blame it upon good science.
 
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cze_026

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Late_Cretaceous said:
Creation science is a totally differnt thing then creationism?????

Wow I never new that.

How about teaching alchemy as an alternative to chemistry

That would have been great in college. While persuing my BS in Chemistry and pre-Veterinary Science, the gold would have been a real asset. Would have been great to live on something besides ground turkey, bologna, and macaroni and cheese.

CZE
 
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Yahweh Nissi

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David was entierly right about what I was trying to say. Regardless of that particular quote, it is the case that all too often scientists in all areas supporting all theories do not search objectively for truth but rather try to prove their own pet theory at all costs. IMO creationists are particularly guilty of this, but at least their motives (in most cases) are good - trying to uphold Biblical truth as they understand it. An incorrect understanding IMHO, but people will always disagree on things.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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yamijoku said:
Well to all the people who follow evolution but not trying to offend them:

adolf hitler was the most extreme evolutionist in the history of man kind!
No, he wasn't. He was an extreme racist.

evolution is survival of the fittest
Nope. It's descent with modification.

and he found the Jewish people to be the lowest on the evolutionary chart (what happened to steriotypes?)
And where, exactly, did he get that from evolution? Can you find any reason why evolution would suggest that? In fact, evolution does not see any kind of superiority amongst races, rather affirming that all human beings are descended from the same human stock. Hitler's anti-semitism was a simple hangover from mediaeval anti-semitism which is derived from the Jews' status as deicides in mediaeval Christian thought. Uncomfortably, if you want to find the roots of European anti-semitism, you have to look to the church.

If you are extreme when it comes to evolution you are doing things that resemble adolf hitler's ways
And what exactly does "extreme" mean in this context?
 
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Bushido216

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yamijoku said:
Well to all the people who follow evolution but not trying to offend them:

adolf hitler was the most extreme evolutionist in the history of man kind! evolution is survival of the fittest and he found the Jewish people to be the lowest on the evolutionary chart (what happened to steriotypes?)

If you are extreme when it comes to evolution you are doing things that resemble adolf hitler's ways
So if I use gravity to justify me killing someone (it wasn't me, all I did was give the man a push, gravity pulled him down to earth!) is gravity false?

Just because someone misused science doesn't make the science evil or incorrect.

Infact, in this instance, it just so happens he didn't.
 
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lucaspa

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david_84 said:
Whoa. From what I know of science and creationism I never would have guessed that that was what you meant. I would honestly be really interested in knowing how that statement can be justified. I don't believe I have ever been told by any evolutionist (theist or atheist) that creation has been proven wrong before. In fact, I have been confronted with the argument that creationism should not be taught as science in schools because science is falsifiable (can be proven wrong) and by it's nature, creationism can not be proven wrong. The basis for creationism is that there is a God who has the power, knowledge/wisdom, and motivation to create the universe and its inhabitants in a 144 hour period as creationists claim He did.
Creationism is the theory that the world was formed in that 144 hour period. Or you can go to the thread "Consequences of Creationism" and see it there.

The reason you have heard the arguments you have is because those were the arguments the lawyers used in the 1982 Arkansas Trial. The lawyers got it wrong.

What got missed is that creationism was the accepted scientific theory from 1700-1831. The scientists who worked then ended up falsifying it.
"There is another way to be a Creationist. One might offer Creationism as a scientific theory: Life did not evolve over millions of years; rather all forms were created at one time by a particular Creator. Although pure versions of Creationism were no longer in vogue among scientists by the end of the eighteenth century, they had flourished earlier (in the writings of Thomas Bumet, William Whiston, and others). Moreover, variants of Creationism were supported by a number of eminent nineteenth-century scientists-William Buckland, Adam Sedgwick, and Louis Agassiz, for example. These Creationists trusted that their theories would accord with the Bible, interpreted in what they saw as a correct way. However, that fact does not affect the scientific status of those theories. Even postulating an unobserved Creator need be no more unscientific than postulating unobservable particles. What matters is the character of the proposals and the ways in which they are articulated and defended. The great scientific Creationists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries offered problem-solving strategies for many of the questions addressed by evolutionary theory. They struggled hard to explain the observed distribution of fossils. Sedgwick, Buckland, and others practiced genuine science. They stuck their necks out and volunteered information about the catastrophes that they invoked to explain biological and geological findings. Because their theories offered definite proposals, those theories were refutable. Indeed, the theories actually achieved refutation. In 1831, in his presidential address to the Geological Society, Adam Sedgwick publicly announced that his own variant of Creationism had been refuted:

Having, been myself a believer, and, to the best of my power, a propagator of what I now regard as a philosophic heresy ... I think it right, as one of my last acts before I quit this Chair, thus publicly to read my recantation.

We ought, indeed, to have paused before we first adopted the diluvian theory, and referred all our old superficial gravel to the action of the Mosaic Flood. For of man, and the works of his hands, we have not yet found a single trace among the remnants of a former world entombed in these ancient deposits. In classing together distant unknown formations under one name; in simultaneous origin, and in determining their date, not by the organic remains we have discovered, but by those we expected, hypothetically hereafter to discover, in them; we have given one more example of the passion with which the mind fastens upon general conclusions, and of the readiness with which it leaves the consideration of unconnected truths. (Sedgwick, 1831, 313-314; all but the last sentence quoted in Gillispie 1951, 142-143) Philip Kitcher, Abusing Science: The Case Against Creationism pp125-126


"There is a more interesting-if equally significant confusion running through much of Ruse's discussion, a confusion revealing a further failure to come to terms with the case I was propounding in "Science at the Bar." I refer to his (and Overton's) continual slide between assessing doctrines and assessing those who hold the doctrines. Ruse reminds us (and this loomed large in the McLean opinion as well) that many advocates of creation-science tend to be dogmatic, slow to learn from experience, and willing to resort to all manner of ad hoc strategies so as to hold onto their beliefs in the face of counter evidence. For the sake of argument, let all that be granted; let us assume that the creationists exhibit precisely those traits of intellectual dishonesty which the friends of science scrupulously and unerringly avoid. Ruse believes (and Judge Overton appears to concur) that, if we once establish these traits to be true of creationists, then we can conclude that Creationism is untestable and unfalsifiable (and "therefore unscientific").
This just will not do. Knowing something about the idiosyncratic mindset of various creationists may have a bearing on certain practical issues (such as "Would you want your daughter to marry one?"). But we learned a long time ago that there is a difference between ad hominem and ad argumentum. Creationists make assertions about the world. Once made, those assertions take on a life of their own. Because they do, we can assess the merits or demerits of creationist theory without having to speculate about the unsavoriness of the mental habits of creationists. What we do, of course, is to examine the empirical evidence relevant to the creationist claims about earth history. If those claims are discredited by the available evidence (and by "discredited" I mean impugned by the use of rules of reasoning which legal and philosophical experts on the nature of evidence have articulated), then Creationism can safely be put on the scrap heap of unjustified theories.
But, intone Ruse and Overton, what if the creationists still do not change their minds, even when presented with what most people regard as thoroughly compelling refutations of their theories? Well, that tells us something interesting about the psychology of creationists, but it has no bearing whatever on an assessment of their doctrines. After all, when confronted by comparable problems in other walks of life, we proceed exactly as I am proposing, that
is, by distinguishing beliefs from believers. When, for instance, several experi-ments turn out contrary to the predictions of a certain theory, we do not care whether the scientist who invented the theory is prepared to change his mind. WA do not say that his theory cannot be tested, simply because he refuses to accept the results of the test. Similarly, ajury may reach the conclusion, in light of the appropriate rules of evidence, that a defendant who pleaded innocent is, in fact, guilty. Do we say that the defendant's assertion "I am innocent" can be tested only if the defendant himself is prepared to admit his guilt when finally confronted with the coup de grace?
In just the same way, the soundness of creation-science can and must be separated from all questions about the dogmatism of creationists. Once we make that rudimentary separation, we discover both (a) that creation-science is testable and falsifiable, and (b) that creation-science has been tested and falsified-insofar as any theory can be said to be falsified. But, as I pointed out in the earlier essay, that damning indictment cannot be drawn so long as we confuse Creationism and creationists to such an extent that we take the creationists' mental intransigence to entail the immunity of creationist theory from empirical confrontation. Larry Laudan, "More on Creationism", Chapter 24 in But Is It Science? Edited by M Ruse pp 363-366


Any time scientific evidence is brought against creationism, its supporters can respond: "God is omnipotent, He could have done it such and such a way."
This can be done with any scientific theory. That is, you can try to save any theory from falsificaton by claiming that the underlying hypotheses are not true. In this case, the underlying hypothesis that creationists abandon is that God tells the truth and only the truth. They end up having God deceive us in Creation and only have it look like it happened by how science finds. This may same creationism, but it falsifies God and destroys Christianity. So, even tho, technically, creationism is not falsified, the overarching theory -- Christianity -- of which it is a part is now falsified. Threw out the baby with the bath water.

No doubt that certain claims made by creationists have been proven wrong; those concerning moon dust or the changing size of the sun, for example. But this does not disprove creationism itself.
Moon dust and changing size of the sun were just supporting data. It turns out the supporting data is not valid. No, what falsifies creationism is evidence that simply can't be there if creationism is true. The fossil record with plants and animals not being next to each other falsifies the 144 hour creation you said above. If that were true, then the remains of all plants and animals that ever lived would be mixed together in the fossil record, not separate. The Flood is a way to get around this falsification but it turns out the Flood is also falsified.
 
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lucaspa

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yamijoku said:
Well to all the people who follow evolution but not trying to offend them:

adolf hitler was the most extreme evolutionist in the history of man kind! evolution is survival of the fittest and he found the Jewish people to be the lowest on the evolutionary chart (what happened to steriotypes?)
1. It is natural selection that has the verbal shorthand "survival of the fittest".

2. As Karl noted, Hitler was an extreme racist. To rationalize that racism, he used both evoution and creationism. That is, he justified the inferiority of some races by saying God individually created them and created them that way.

"Human culture and civilization on this continent are inseparably bound up with the presence of the Aryan. If he dies out or declines, the dark veils of an age without culture will again descend on this globe. The undermining of the existence of human culture by the destruction of its bearer seems in the eyes of a folkish philosophy the most execrable crime. Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."

" It is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will." All quotes from Mein Kampf

There are two enemies here, for both evolutionists and creationists:
1. Racism. It will misuse both for its ends.
2. The naturalistic fallacy. This states that what does happen in nature ought to happen in human society. This is false. As Bushido pointed out, this is like saying "because gravity causes all things to fall, it is OK for me to shoot down an airplane." The nonsense here is very visible. It is just as much nonsense to say "because natural selection decides who is fit in nature, it is OK for me to decide who is fit among humans and kill all those I decide are not fit."
 
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david_84

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Indeed, the theories actually achieved refutation. In 1831, in his presidential address to the Geological Society, Adam Sedgwick publicly announced that his own variant of Creationism had been refuted

The same has been done by at least one evolutionist:

"I do not want to believe in God. Therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation leading to evolution."-Dr. George Wald, professor emeritus of biology at Harvard, 1971 winner of Nobel Prize in biology.
("Origin, Life, and Evolution," 'Scientific American' 1978)

In this case, the underlying hypothesis that creationists abandon is that God tells the truth and only the truth. They end up having God deceive us in Creation and only have it look like it happened by how science finds. This may same creationism, but it falsifies God and destroys Christianity. So, even tho, technically, creationism is not falsified, the overarching theory -- Christianity -- of which it is a part is now falsified. Threw out the baby with the bath water.

For this I would refer to the popular argument that when Jesus fed the five thousand, the fish looked as if they had lived, been caught, died, and been placed in the basket to be distributed. Obviously, this was not the case but it's doubtful that Jesus was being dishonest by performing that miracle.
 
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Yahweh Nissi

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david_84 said:
For this I would refer to the popular argument that when Jesus fed the five thousand, the fish looked as if they had lived, been caught, died, and been placed in the basket to be distributed. Obviously, this was not the case but it's doubtful that Jesus was being dishonest by performing that miracle.

This is very true. Wandering Magi (another creationist) made a similar point in reply to one of my posts, saying that oxygen was in some sense a fossil would take millions of years to be produced 'natually', but God had to provide us with it so we could survive. However, there is one key point that differentiates these from much of the evidence for evolution. In these cases, God was responding to a need with what He did (of course, I believe the oxygen actually was created over millions of years - but I realise it would look no different from a YEC reality as we HAVE to have it to exist). But why do we need dinusaur fossils? (I realise creationist theories take these into account - but they have all seemed flawed to me). Why do we need to see objects billions of light years away? There are plenty of stars within a couple of hundred light years and these form most of what we see with the naked eye anyway. Why did He need to put the cosmic microwave background radiation in? Why do we have a coxsix (probably spelled that horribly) if we did not evolve from a creature with a tail? I can think of no need to which God might have been responding with these - unlike the fish or potentially oxygen.

God bless,
YN.
 
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david_84

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Just after I posted my response I took that into consideration and here is the thought that I had. There is nothing that I know of that indicates there was anything different about these fish. I don't know Jewish culture at the time but I don't think that they would have eaten or had some use for all of the organs and bones. So if there was no need for them, why not replace those parts of the anatomy with muscle? You'll probably be able to find flaws in this too. As I said, it was just an afterthought and took all of a minute to think of. As for your question about the coccyx (I think that's the correct spelling) I recall hearing or reading somewhere that it acts as an anchor point for certain muscles that serve a very important function. I don't think I need to mention what it is. It was a while ago that I came upon that information so I'll have to see if I can find a source to get that verified.
 
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lucaspa

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david_84 said:
The same has been done by at least one evolutionist:

"I do not want to believe in God. Therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation leading to evolution."-Dr. George Wald, professor emeritus of biology at Harvard, 1971 winner of Nobel Prize in biology.
("Origin, Life, and Evolution," 'Scientific American' 1978)
First, we appear to have another made up quote. The Scientific American article that Wald wrote was in 1954. It was entitled "The Origin of life" Scientific American vol. 191(2) August 1954.

In that article, Wald said
"We tell this story [about Pasteur's disproof of spontaneous generation of life] to beginning students of biology as though it represents a triumph of reason over mysticism. In fact it is very nearly the opposite. The reasonable view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation. There is no third position. For this reason many scientists a century ago chose to regard the belief in spontaneous generation as a "philosophical necessity." It is a symptom of the philosophical poverty of our time that this necessity is no longer appreciated. Most modern biologists, having reviewd with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing."

This seems to have morphed into the quote you used.

Second, if we take the quote at face value, we don't have an "evolutionist" here, but an atheist. Equating those terms is a particularly silly thing to do in this forum.

Third, by 1978 we knew that abiogenesis was not impossible. That it was indeed possible. Wald had stated this in the 1954 article.
"The important point is that since he origin of life belongs in the category of at-least-once phenomena, time is on its side. However improbable we regard this event, or any of the steps which it involves, given enough time it will almost certainly happen at least once. And for life as we know it, with its capacity for growth and reproduction, once may be enough.
Time is in fact the hero of the plot. The time with which we have to deal is of the order of two billion years. What we regard as impossible on the basis of human experience is meaningless here. Given so much time, the "impossible" becomes possible, The possible probable, And the probable virtually certain, One only has to wait: Time itself performs the miracles."

Not only did we know of time, but by 1978 Fox's work with protocells and the RNA world were supported hypotheses and Wald would have known of them.

For this I would refer to the popular argument that when Jesus fed the five thousand, the fish looked as if they had lived, been caught, died, and been placed in the basket to be distributed. Obviously, this was not the case but it's doubtful that Jesus was being dishonest by performing that miracle.
Not the same thing. The fish were dead and looked dead. In essence what we have are photocopies of the fish. In the Appearance of Age argument we have something completely different. We have a universe that could easily look just like what creationists say it is: young. The only reason to make it look old is to deceive us. In duplicating the fish and bread, Jesus was making copies of something that really had gone thru the process of living, being caught, and dying. Just like photocopies of a paper look like they had been originally composed, edited, and printed on a printer. But the photocopies are still copies and there is no deceit in that. The fish were copies.
 
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Yahweh Nissi

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Yeah. There were already a few loaves and fishes and God miraculously multiplied what was there. Sure, He could have left out the bones, but why? The obvious thing to do is just make more fish exactly the same. It is no harder for God to create fish with bones then without, so it seems there would need to be a specific reason for God to create unusual - i.e. boneless - fish. There was no reason, so He just created normal fish. And there may have been some symbolism in the miracle that would have been lost if the fish had not been like those origional few.

But if we observe the Universe, we see much evidence that contradicts the YEC position that there is no need for or no logical reason to include (unlike the fish bones - they may not have been actually necessary to feed the crowd, but if you are going to create some fish for people to eat it is logical to create normal fish). Like the cosmic microwave background radiation - the 'afterglow' of the Big Bang. If God had just 'popped' the Universe into existance there would have been no point just randomly creating this. It does not do anything and it makes it look, quite specifically, like the Universe stared out 13.7 billion years ago in a Big Bang.

God bless,
YN.
 
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lucaspa

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david_84 said:
As for your question about the coccyx (I think that's the correct spelling) I recall hearing or reading somewhere that it acts as an anchor point for certain muscles that serve a very important function. I don't think I need to mention what it is. It was a while ago that I came upon that information so I'll have to see if I can find a source to get that verified.
I'm not sure which function you are referring to. Here is a site that has all the muscles of the pelvic area and their origins, insertions, and functions.
http://anatomy.uams.edu/HTMLpages/anatomyhtml/muscles_pelvis&perineum.html

So which one do you mean? And do you know the medical meaning of the word "superficial"?
 
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