What would aborted fetuses praise for?

[Jamdoc]

So.. to start.. I'm basing the idea that an aborted fetus, miscarriage or someone who dies in infancy does go to heaven. With these scriptures.

Matthew 18

1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

2 Samuel 12

19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Now.. establishing that belief... the question comes.. what would they praise Jesus for? Would they understand sin and redemption the way we do? If they died before they knew the difference between right and wrong, if they died before they even had conscious thoughts that could even remotely be considered sin, in the womb.. to what degree do they have guilt that Jesus saves them from that they'd be thankful for? They're still "in" by grace, but would they have much appreciation for it? They also don't have Jesus as the source of blessings in a life they never got to live.

I've thought about this before for myself, in how empty it'd feel just reciting something like Psalm 127

3 Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Me saying that is just regurgitating something someone else wrote. it doesn't come from the heart because me being single and without children, I don't even feel that or know it.
But at least ones about forgiving sin I can get and I can actually feel.

If the point of allowing sin, and the fallen world, is so that we can better know the depths of God's mercy and redemption and love Him all the more for it.. how can those who never experience such things know them beyond an academic level?

How can they read something like Song of Solomon and have any kind of grasp on it, when it's something they'll never experience?

I apologize for JUST how controversial this topic may be, but it's something that keeps popping up in my mind since Roe v Wade might be overturned and just got me thinking on tangents to that topic.

 

[RileyG]

Short answer: I do not know

Longer answer:
I do not know what heaven is like, other than we probably would have much more knowledge than we do now and would be perfectly content and happy in God's presence. I am sure they would be content being in God's presence for all eternity. (Killing an unborn child in the womb is wrong regardless because no one should be denied life).

 

[Jamdoc]

Short answer: I do not know

Longer answer:
I do not know what heaven is like, other than we probably would have much more knowledge than we do now and would be perfectly content and happy in God's presence. I am sure they would be content being in God's presence for all eternity. (Killing an unborn child in the womb is wrong regardless because no one should be denied life).

but wouldn't He mean less to them, with them having less good to attribute to Him?

I temper this idea with the following from Luke 7

36 And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.

37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Now if a person was realtively righteous (still a sinner who was saved and forgiven, but didn't sin much), they may be blessed heavily, and in realizing these blessings are for Christ's sake, they love Christ the more for them.
For someone not blessed so much who may perhaps have more sins that need forgiving, they love Jesus more because of all the sins forgiven.

But someone dying that young.... having neither blessings or a big rap sheet of sins that are forgiven... do they love little?

 

[RileyG]

Why would God condemn an innocent baby? He knows their hearts. They are innocent.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why would God condemn an innocent baby? He knows their hearts. They are innocent.

I wasn't saying that He would at all
I think the very young are forgiven and are all with the Lord.

 

[childeye 2]

But someone dying that young.... having neither blessings or a big rap sheet of sins that are forgiven... do they love little?

I believe that as the Eternal Spirit, Love just is.

Matthew 21:16

"Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise".

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe that as the Eternal Spirit, Love just is.

Matthew 21:16

"Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise".

would that just be praise for being God even if there's nothing done for you you just.. suddenly exist in heaven and have no particular reason to worship Jesus other than He's God?

 

[SkyWriting]

So.. to start.. I'm basing the idea that an aborted fetus, miscarriage or someone who dies in infancy does go to heaven. With these scriptures.
Matthew 18
Matthew 19
2 Samuel 12
Now.. establishing that belief... the question comes.. what would they praise Jesus for?

Babies like to be Loved by a parent. It's in their nature.
You can't even get to heaven without that outlook.

The Greatest in the Kingdom
…2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[childeye 2]

would that just be praise for being God even if there's nothing done for you you just.. suddenly exist in heaven and have no particular reason to worship Jesus other than He's God?

Basically yes. For one thing, I believe that to behold the Glory of God is completely overwhelming for any human being, to put it mildly. But God can reveal Himself to whomever He wants to, in any measure or by any means He would choose to. Also, God's Word is the life and light of mankind, so it's not like God has done nothing for us or not given us anything that we could not know Him in some capacity.

Here's the problem I have with the scenario of an aborted fetus. I don't know whether an aborted fetus would suddenly exist as a consciously aware person in heaven. But if it is so, I would think it's possible that such a person may also somehow have the knowledge of being aborted. Jesus is the Word made flesh and is a quickening spirit. I know there's a lot of ifs here, but in such a case I would think it's fair to say that this person has tasted death, may even know heartbreak, and therefore could also know Christ, the quickening spirit.

 

[Jamdoc]

I guess, but if that's the case then why have any of this, I thought the point of the fallen world was to learn the depths of the Lord's mercy through redemption, if that was unnecessary to worship God perfectly then why the roundabout?

 

[childeye 2]

I guess, but if that's the case then why have any of this, I thought the point of the fallen world was to learn the depths of the Lord's mercy through redemption, if that was unnecessary to worship God perfectly then why the roundabout?

But what if the creature always tends towards vanity by taking God for granted? What happens throughout time could all exist like a video, so as to establish a record of what happens in view of His absence, that can be periodically replayed.

When I look at the following scripture it sounds to me like this event is in the future and is meant to remind mankind of where we had fallen from and from where we were delivered from. Isaiah 66,
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[disciple Clint]

but wouldn't He mean less to them, with them having less good to attribute to Him?

I temper this idea with the following from Luke 7



Now if a person was realtively righteous (still a sinner who was saved and forgiven, but didn't sin much), they may be blessed heavily, and in realizing these blessings are for Christ's sake, they love Christ the more for them.
For someone not blessed so much who may perhaps have more sins that need forgiving, they love Jesus more because of all the sins forgiven.

But someone dying that young.... having neither blessings or a big rap sheet of sins that are forgiven... do they love little?

I think they would love purely and completely which is the point Jesus was making when He said if you become like a little child....

 

[RileyG]

I wasn't saying that He would at all
I think the very young are forgiven and are all with the Lord.

Excuse me. My mistake.

 

[Jamdoc]

Excuse me. My mistake.

They're with the Lord, but I wonder if their capacity to appreciate Jesus is diminished because they were neither blessed nor forgiven much.

 

[TedT]

Now.. establishing that belief... the question comes.. what would they praise Jesus for? Would they understand sin and redemption the way we do? If they died before they knew the difference between right and wrong, if they died before they even had conscious thoughts that could even remotely be considered sin, in the womb.. to what degree do they have guilt that Jesus saves them from that they'd be thankful for?

Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
Because of verse 5, I do not accept that a fetus is innocent in the womb and the story of Jacob and Esau trying to murder each other in the womb seals it but we also know that there are two types of sinners, the reprobate sinners who sinned the unforgivable sin and the elect sinners whose sin is temporary until they are redeemed and sanctified.

Verse 6 tells us that elect sinners can and are taught faith and wisdom while in the womb which would set them up for saving grace if they are chosen to die in the womb.

So basically I believe that the age of death has nothing to do with which afterlife you enter, only our election, which is fulfilled in Christ's death, or non-election fulfilled in hell.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

They're with the Lord, but I wonder if their capacity to appreciate Jesus is diminished because they were neither blessed nor forgiven much.

No one really knows, but we do know that the angels in heaven praise and worship God despite not needing to be forgiven. Is our praise and worship maybe on another level (not that it can be measured, but I don't know how else to put it) from theirs because of our gratitude for having our sins forgiven? Maybe so.

 

[com7fy8]

No one really knows, but we do know that the angels in heaven praise and worship God despite not needing to be forgiven. Is our praise and worship maybe on another level (not that it can be measured, but I don't know how else to put it) from theirs because of our gratitude for having our sins forgiven? Maybe so.

And Jesus is more blessed with our Father, than anyone who has been forgiven or a holy angel.

I would say that during this life ones forgiven much will love much. But as we all grow to be more like Jesus, we can become more like each other. And in God's love the main focus of our attention will develop.

 

[Jamdoc]

No one really knows, but we do know that the angels in heaven praise and worship God despite not needing to be forgiven. Is our praise and worship maybe on another level (not that it can be measured, but I don't know how else to put it) from theirs because of our gratitude for having our sins forgiven? Maybe so.

To be honest, I have always held some small amount of disdain for Angels, I know, in contrast with most Christians who look up to them in some way.

Unlike an animal that God has created, which is innocent and does not sin, Angels can sin, they can fall, and unlike humans, they cannot be saved afterward, and because of that, that they can sin, but not be redeemed.. there's a bit of a contempt for them I must admit. To some degree, I often view them almost like robots, the ones that sin just being defective.

I know I shouldn't view them that way.. but it's hard not to, in the light of them not being redeemable.

And Jesus is more blessed with our Father, than anyone who has been forgiven or a holy angel.

I would say that during this life ones forgiven much will love much. But as we all grow to be more like Jesus, we can become more like each other. And in God's love the main focus of our attention will develop.

Jesus is on an entirely different level. First off, He's God's only begotten Son, and is part of the Godhead.

But secondly and biblically speaking more importantly, He did something more noble than any other man can do, taking on the sins of the world on Himself, and taking the wrath of God against our sins on Himself in our place.

It is for that that He receives everything and all blessings.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Without the redemption.. Christ would not be magnified like that.
it is FOR that reason that Jesus is exalted above all other things.

The Angels may say the words... but does it really mean anything to them?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

To be honest, I have always held some small amount of disdain for Angels, I know, in contrast with most Christians who look up to them in some way.

Unlike an animal that God has created, which is innocent and does not sin, Angels can sin, they can fall, and unlike humans, they cannot be saved afterward, and because of that, that they can sin, but not be redeemed.. there's a bit of a contempt for them I must admit. To some degree, I often view them almost like robots, the ones that sin just being defective.

I don't think that makes much sense since that would put the blame on God for them sinning. But, clearly, God puts the blame on them. So, it had to be their choice rather than God making them a certain way that they couldn't help but sin against Him.

I know I shouldn't view them that way.. but it's hard not to, in the light of them not being redeemable.

I don't have any particular view of them except that they are mysterious. But, one day we will have a better understanding of them. I think there's just a lot that we currently don't know or understand about them, so, because of that, I'm not going to judge them one way or another at this point.

 

[com7fy8]

To be honest, I have always held some small amount of disdain for Angels, I know, in contrast with most Christians who look up to them in some way.

About our holy angels >

"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14)

So, I would honor and appreciate God, for providing us with our angels who are ministers of our salvation.

Unlike an animal that God has created, which is innocent and does not sin, Angels can sin, they can fall, and unlike humans, they cannot be saved afterward, and because of that, that they can sin, but not be redeemed.. there's a bit of a contempt for them I must admit.

But the ones who did not fall with Satan have stayed with God. And these are used and honored by Jesus. One angel was even used to strengthen Jesus while Jesus was in the garden >

"Then an angel appeared to him from heaven, strengthening Him." (Luke 22:43)

To some degree, I often view them almost like robots, the ones that sin just being defective.

They can minister strengthening to God's own Son. So, they are alive and powerful in God's own love!

But Satan's angels are the love-dead robots of stupidity and evil.

I know I shouldn't view them that way.. but it's hard not to, in the light of them not being redeemable.

This would be speaking about Satan's angels . . . not God's.

Jesus is on an entirely different level. First off, He's God's only begotten Son, and is part of the Godhead.

But secondly and biblically speaking more importantly, He did something more noble than any other man can do, taking on the sins of the world on Himself, and taking the wrath of God against our sins on Himself in our place.

It is for that that He receives everything and all blessings.

Revelation 5


Without the redemption.. Christ would not be magnified like that.
it is FOR that reason that Jesus is exalted above all other things.

But, like I offer, an angel could minister to God's own Son. This shows how greatly Jesus shares with and uses and therefore honors His angels who have stayed with Jesus against evil. Angels of God are angels of love; because "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8 & 4:16).

God is sharing; so He includes His angels and us in His loving.

So . . . yes Jesus is so great. And God is able to change us to be like Jesus > Romans 8:29 > and already angels are able to minister us to be and to love like Jesus.

And Jesus is so pleasing to our Father. This is why what He has done has done so much good. What has worked the most is not what He did, but how pleasing He was while doing it. And angels share with Jesus in God's love so they can minister this in our character, spreading all that is in them to us, so we become like Jesus, as is our destiny in Christ > Romans 8:29.

The Angels may say the words... but does it really mean anything to them?

yes

God's words mean more to God, than to us; and God blesses His angels with understanding in His light of how His love has us seeing.