What would aborted fetuses praise for?

[Jamdoc]

I don't think that makes much sense since that would put the blame on God for them sinning. But, clearly, God puts the blame on them. So, it had to be their choice rather than God making them a certain way that they couldn't help but sin against Him.

I suppose that was in reference to the robot thing.. yeah I know it's a wrong way of looking at it.
It's just to what degree do angels choose to love and serve God and to what degree is it just .. part of how they were created. They have to have some free will to choose to sin

That an angel would choose to sin bothers me to some degree. Because I'm always told, Just, SEEING Jesus will fulfill all my desires, I'll want nothing else, just seeing God.
Yet angels behold God in all His glory... and some chose to sin anyway. Lucifer beheld God in all His glory... and managed to have pride and say to Himself "yeah, I can be just like Him."
and I think to eternity, and if the Angels can see God in all His glory and choose sin.. what will stop us? Do we lose free will? Is the thankfulness for salvation and memory of the death that sin causes enough to make us never go down that road again? But then again.. is that knowlege of salvation diminished in those who died in the womb?

I don't have any particular view of them except that they are mysterious. But, one day we will have a better understanding of them. I think there's just a lot that we currently don't know or understand about them, so, because of that, I'm not going to judge them one way or another at this point.

Well, Paul said we will judge them, which is also part of why I don't hold a lofty view of them.

 

[com7fy8]

Free will can be an idol. Jesus says a person needs to deny oneself, in order to follow Jesus > Luke 9:23. I would say my self includes my own will and control, which are so inferior to Jesus and how God is able to have us loving.

And our own character needs to go, so we can love in the character of Jesus.

Now, an unborn does not have this, I would say; or else every child would be born saved and submissive to Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I suppose that was in reference to the robot thing.. yeah I know it's a wrong way of looking at it.
It's just to what degree do angels choose to love and serve God and to what degree is it just .. part of how they were created.

None of us know that. I prefer not to speculate about things like that.

They have to have some free will to choose to sin

Agree.

That an angel would choose to sin bothers me to some degree. Because I'm always told, Just, SEEING Jesus will fulfill all my desires, I'll want nothing else, just seeing God.

Yet angels behold God in all His glory... and some chose to sin anyway. Lucifer beheld God in all His glory... and managed to have pride and say to Himself "yeah, I can be just like Him."
and I think to eternity, and if the Angels can see God in all His glory and choose sin.. what will stop us?

I'm not sure that we should be comparing ourselves to angels for one thing. There's clearly a difference between humans and angels. But, as to your question, we will no longer have a sinful nature (tendency to sin) at that point. That will be removed. I know it's hard to fathom right now, but the fact is that scripture is clear there will be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain (Rev 21:4) in eternity and that implies no more sin as well (sin leads to death, etc.).

Do we lose free will?

I guess to some extent, yeah. The free will to choose to sin, anyway. We're given this lifetime to make our choices in terms of who we want to serve and where we want to spend eternity. It's not like we should be allowed to take eternity to decide who we want to serve and where we want to be for eternity, right?

Is the thankfulness for salvation and memory of the death that sin causes enough to make us never go down that road again?

No, I just think that we will have a sinless nature at that point instead of a sinful nature like we have now.

But then again.. is that knowlege of salvation diminished in those who died in the womb?

I have no idea.

Well, Paul said we will judge them, which is also part of why I don't hold a lofty view of them.

Yeah, at one point we will (whatever that even means and entails exactly), but not yet.

 

[RDKirk]

would that just be praise for being God even if there's nothing done for you you just.. suddenly exist in heaven and have no particular reason to worship Jesus other than He's God?

All the earth worships you and sings praises to you; they sing praises to your name. Psalm 66:4

And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!” And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” Revelation 4:8-11

All created beings will praise God simply because of the knowledge of Who He is. The fact that God created us is sufficient reason to praise Him.

 

[Jamdoc]

None of us know that. I prefer not to speculate about things like that.

Agree.

I'm not sure that we should be comparing ourselves to angels for one thing. There's clearly a difference between humans and angels. But, as to your question, we will no longer have a sinful nature (tendency to sin) at that point. That will be removed. I know it's hard to fathom right now, but the fact is that scripture is clear there will be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain (Rev 21:4) in eternity and that implies no more sin as well (sin leads to death, etc.).

I guess to some extent, yeah. The free will to choose to sin, anyway. We're given this lifetime to make our choices in terms of who we want to serve and where we want to spend eternity. It's not like we should be allowed to take eternity to decide who we want to serve and where we want to be for eternity, right?

No, I just think that we will have a sinless nature at that point instead of a sinful nature like we have now.

Adam and Eve were not created with a sin nature, they acquired the sin nature by choosing to sin. Angels as far as I know don't have a sin nature, some still chose to sin, despite seeing God in His glory in heaven.

So just.. losing sin nature, doesn't really hold up, it sets things back to the point before the fall, but an Adam without sin nature chose to follow his wife in sin and death, rather than let her go and continue to follow God. God probably would have provided Adam with another wife to replace Eve, but he consciously chose to eat what Eve offered him. Note in Genesis 3, God curses the serpent for deceiving Eve, but Adam is credited with the sin, because he was not deceived. He knew, he choose sin anyway. To some degree this is why I think marriage no longer exists after the resurrection, because choosing one's wife over God has happened, even without sin nature, and if the supernatural interpretation of Genesis 6 is correct, then Angels who beheld God in all His glory also chose human wives. No wives.. makes choosing your wife over God impossible.
Something else has to be in play, to make us either unable to choose sin, or we're able to, but choosing sin seems unfathomable (making it more or less a false choice, like having a gun up to your head, you could pull the trigger, it is a "choice" but because you want to live, it's not a choice you'd make). The only thing that can really make sense is.. knowledge of the choice to sin resulting in the broken world we live in now, and the cost of what it took to redeem us makes sin unfathomable, or just losing free will making the choice not exist. Which is a terrifying thought of just being a passenger along for the ride, not even being able to make a choice like "should I wear red, or blue today?" or "what would I like to eat today?", rather trivial things, but still choices we make that require free will to be able to make.

I trust that it will be done, I just wonder the how.

All the earth worships you and sings praises to you; they sing praises to your name. Psalm 66:4

And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!” And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” Revelation 4:8-11

All created beings will praise God simply because of the knowledge of Who He is. The fact that God created us is sufficient reason to praise Him.

well again.. Adam chose his wife over obeying God, knowing God created him
and Angels chose sin, not only knowing He created them, but beholding Him in all His glory.
Adam was even incredibly blessed. given dominion of the earth and all the creatures on it, given everything he needed, even given a wife, so even a lot of blessings were not enough to not choose sin.

The only thing that really separates where we are (or at least will be) from where they are, is that we were bought by the blood of God's only begotten Son. We know the consequence of sin, and the price paid to redeem us from it. Only thing that really makes sense to me.

 

[TedT]

Unlike an animal that God has created, which is innocent and does not sin

Are you sure?
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made.
with
Gen 3:4 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and every beast of the field!

Do not "more crafty" and "cursed above, ie more than", the other animals not imply that the animals are crafty also and were cursed too? Just not as much as the serpent?

And Exodus 6 tells us:
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. 6 And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”
...in which the (innocent of evil?) animals are suddenly lumped in with the evil violence of men to be destroyed? That they were included due to sinfulness can be seen as supported by the following verses: 11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and full of violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth and saw that it was corrupt; for all living creatures on the earth had corrupted their ways.

To some degree, I often view them almost like robots, the ones that sin just being defective.

Can't agree...

ANGELS ARE PEOPLE, PERSONS because Angels have free will:

1. Angels worship GOD:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Robotic praise and worship is a parody of the real thing and worthless in heaven. When you put on a dvd and listen to a worship song singing praises to GOD, do you think or allude to the dvd as worshipping? Of course you don't.

2. Some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. implying the fallen angels are non-elect demons ie the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD...angel being a job description, NOT a race or type of being.

3. Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. This verse contrasts the sinfulness of men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness of angels, not just their consecration to GOD. Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, Satan's fall is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot...

4. Angels have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness, pride, and anger:
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires (1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44). Why would anyone create a robotic group with emotions to drive them when HIS will is all that is necessary to drive them? Robotic emotions??? Surely only people have emotions...proof of their personhood in the image of GOD.

5. Angels are Persons in the image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God. Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD and like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image. When did they receive the image of God unless it was in creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD... It also means they are suitable as marriage partners for our GOD, part of those who make up HIS Bride who were elected to be conformed to HIS Son and to heaven.

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, they also imply they have free will and if you combine free will with election of some angels and the fall of others, the Satanic demons, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some staying holy and Satan and his crew choosing that which made them forever evil in HIS sight.

Pre-Conception existence theology contends that EVERY PERSON was created in the image of GOD (that is, able to be HIS Bride. None were created with GOD knowing they would end in hell but as true innocents we only had the potential for perfection, ie, we had to choose by our free will to accept GOD and HIS life for us in heaven to fulfill our potential to become perfect in righteousness. The fall of the elect into sin delayed the fulfillment of that potential by making it impossible to fulfill without grace. The redemption of His sheep (elect) gone astray into sin, His sinful good (elect) seed, is a restoration to that potential and the new creation is the fully realized fulfillment of HIS purpose for our creation in us.

Peace, Ted

 

[Jamdoc]

Are you sure?
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made.
with
Gen 3:4 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and every beast of the field!

Do not "more crafty" and "cursed above, ie more than", the other animals not imply that the animals are crafty also and were cursed too? Just not as much as the serpent?

And Exodus 6 tells us:
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. 6 And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”
...in which the (innocent of evil?) animals are suddenly lumped in with the evil violence of men to be destroyed? That they were included due to sinfulness can be seen as supported by the following verses: 11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and full of violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth and saw that it was corrupt; for all living creatures on the earth had corrupted their ways.

Can't agree...

ANGELS ARE PEOPLE, PERSONS because Angels have free will:

1. Angels worship GOD:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Robotic praise and worship is a parody of the real thing and worthless in heaven. When you put on a dvd and listen to a worship song singing praises to GOD, do you think or allude to the dvd as worshipping? Of course you don't.

2. Some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. implying the fallen angels are non-elect demons ie the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD...angel being a job description, NOT a race or type of being.

3. Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. This verse contrasts the sinfulness of men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness of angels, not just their consecration to GOD. Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, Satan's fall is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot...

4. Angels have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness, pride, and anger:
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires (1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44). Why would anyone create a robotic group with emotions to drive them when HIS will is all that is necessary to drive them? Robotic emotions??? Surely only people have emotions...proof of their personhood in the image of GOD.

5. Angels are Persons in the image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God. Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD and like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image. When did they receive the image of God unless it was in creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD... It also means they are suitable as marriage partners for our GOD, part of those who make up HIS Bride who were elected to be conformed to HIS Son and to heaven.

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, they also imply they have free will and if you combine free will with election of some angels and the fall of others, the Satanic demons, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some staying holy and Satan and his crew choosing that which made them forever evil in HIS sight.

Pre-Conception existence theology contends that EVERY PERSON was created in the image of GOD (that is, able to be HIS Bride. None were created with GOD knowing they would end in hell but as true innocents we only had the potential for perfection, ie, we had to choose by our free will to accept GOD and HIS life for us in heaven to fulfill our potential to become perfect in righteousness. The fall of the elect into sin delayed the fulfillment of that potential by making it impossible to fulfill without grace. The redemption of His sheep (elect) gone astray into sin, His sinful good (elect) seed, is a restoration to that potential and the new creation is the fully realized fulfillment of HIS purpose for our creation in us.

Peace, Ted

Angels are never referred to as marriage partners of God. God made a covenant like a marriage with Israel, and with the Church, that is corporate and symbolic in nature. God is not a gay polygamist marrying a bunch of male angels or male believers. I'm not personally marrying Jesus, we're not gay. In the Old Testament sometimes angels are referred to as 'sons of God" perhaps, in one interpretation of those passages (which is disputed as to if it's actually meant to be angels referred to), but not wives of God.. and as far as we know they are all male. If you go into the Rabbit-hole of 1 Enoch, yeah, they're all male, and they're not given wives because they don't die, so they don't need to replenish themselves. Not scripture, but it does agree with Jesus' rationale in Matthew 22 as to why marriage no longer exists.. immortality means no more children are needed for inheritance, making Levirite marriage totally unnecessary (and I'm not 100% sure if that is a total blanket ban on all marriage or just Levirite, but most people do feel as if it's all man-woman unions)