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Featured What we should be looking forward to

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    This thread is for discussion on what is prophesied for us in these end times. Speculation and un-Biblical theories will be refuted, only post the truth of God's Plans as revealed to us, for as His Christian people, we are His children of the Light and should not be confused or in the dark about what will happen. 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6

    Here is a good article that says what will not happen:
    1. As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is no actual verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-Tribulation rapture removal of living people to heaven.

    2. Pre-Trib’ers force assumptions on many key Bible verses – especially assuming that all references to “saints” and to the “elect”, who are being persecuted and martyred during the end-times’ tribulation”, must refer to those individuals who are saved after the Pre-Trib rapture has taken place. How are all these folks getting saved during the end-times’ tribulation” if the “Church” and the “restrainer” have been removed?

    3. There is no instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, or the Apostles made any statement to the effect that the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth seven years prior to the beginning of the end-times’ tribulation period”.

    4. Despite taking several texts out of context from a few early church fathers’ writings, the Pre-Trib’ers really cannot find any predominant, popular teaching that supports the Pre-Trib rapture prophetic viewpoint in any era of Church history prior to the 1830s.

    5. Many learned men of the Christian faith, such as John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney, John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, George Whitefield, etc., were all solid Post-Trib believers!

    6. The Pre-Trib rapture is a very big cash cow” for Pre-Trib writers. Yet, there are some Pre-Trib’ers who will admit that their prophetic viewpoint is still a minority among Bible scholars. How can that be, you may ask, since so many prophecy books favor the Pre-Trib viewpoint? That is because so many of the major “Christian” publishing houses are, for the most part, owned and controlled by liberal Christians. Post-Trib writers often find it extremely hard to get their books published by these publishing houses, because Pre-Trib “sells”. Could that be because a rapture removal to heaven appeals to an escapist” mentality? It’s that mentality of: “I sure don’t want to be here when the Antichrist takes over!” The Pre-Trib rapture theory appeals to many, after all, who wants to face persecution?

    7. Despite the fact that many Pre-Trib’ers dislike author Dave MacPherson, they haven’t been able to disprove his well-documented findings that show that the Pre-Trib rapture’s origins (as far as any public teaching) date back to the 1830s – and not earlier than that time. Nor have the Pre-Trib’ers been able to disprove MacPherson’s findings that the vast majority of the early church fathers taught that the church would go through the end-times’ tribulation” – and lots of tribulation before that.

    8. Public teaching of the Pre-Trib rapture originated in the British Isles during the 1830s. This theory was then taken to America a little bit later, and was popularized by the Scofield Study Bible”.

    9. To believe in the Pre-Trib rapture, one must ignore several key Bible verses that speak directly against that idea, such as John 17:15 where the Lord Jesus Christ Himself prays that the Father NOT take believers OUT OF the world – and I Thessalonians 4:16, 17, which says that the Christians living at the time of Jesus Christ’s return are not caught up until after the “dead in Christ” are raised first.

    10. Believing in the Pre-Trib rapture, goes against the prevalent theme of those portions of the Bible that deal with tribulation and persecution. That prevalent theme is preservation in the midst of tribulation”. Note: the accounts of Daniel in the lions’ den, and of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace! Isaiah 43:2

    11. To believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, you have to think that you will be among a very “select group” of Christians who will not have to suffer horrible things during the “end-times’ tribulation”. Your “select group” excludes those millions of Christians from past centuries who were NOT “air evacuated” out of their tribulation and suffering, and the many individuals who become Christians during the “end-times’ tribulation”, and who will suffer martyrdom!

    12. The Pre-Trib rapture belief, for the most part, seems to produce very bad fruit– that is, it seems to have neutralized” many Christians living today, causing them to sit back and to not fight evil. And that is because, don’t you know, they won’t be here when things get really bad. Could this “doctrine” have been specifically designed to make Christians complacent and careless?

    13. There will be a ‘rapture’, but not to heaven, when Jesus Returns to earth. this will be the gathering of Matthew 24:31 and the rising into the air to meet Him of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Then we Christians will be with His always.
    Ref; Darryl Eberhart
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
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  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    God’s Plan for our Time:
    As 2016 nears completion, we may wonder what it is that the Lord has next for His creation. We know the story of how He destroyed an early civilization by the means of a great flood. Jesus prophesied that in the time of the end it will again be ‘as in the days of Noah’. We can’t know how bad that civilization was, but it seems they just got on with life much the same as we do today. From God’s point of view, their problem was they failed to acknowledge Him or respect His Laws, so their Creator simply wiped them out and started over again, just like anything made that turns out defective is remoulded, or with breeding; try a new bloodline. Isaiah 64:8, Jeremiah 18:6-7, Romans 9:20-21

    So are the world’s people today as bad as those in Noah’s day? It seems likely, as evidenced by the decline in moral standards and the widespread disbelief in the Creator God. Jeremiah 6:18-19, Psalms 10:13, Ezekiel 20:39

    Several Bible verses tell us that God the Creator takes a keen interest in what is happening on earth. Revelation 2:23b, Job 34:21-22, Proverbs 15:3, Psalms 11:4-5, Jer. 32:18-19 In our perfectly balanced and organized universe, He is playing out a drama, a set piece carefully orchestrated and arranged so that each player can choose their own role. Each person is given a conscience; a moral intuition to be aware of what is right and what is wrong, so we all make our choices as to how we live our lives.
    Today, the whole world is in a precarious state, with a population of over 7 billion. There is the capacity to produce enough food and provide a reasonable lifestyle for that many, but not the altruistic desire to do so and human mismanagement exacerbates the problems. Therefore the situation deteriorates, life is difficult and short for most and only relatively few live a good and fulfilling life, while all mostly do not acknowledge the one true God or keep His Laws. Over 100 Bible prophesies say how God will judge the nations and punish His enemies, to once again ‘reset civilization’. Deuteronomy 32:35, Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 2:12, Isaiah 30:25-28, Habakkuk 3:12, Zephaniah 3:8, Hebrews 10:27, 2 Thess. 1:8, Jeremiah 23:19-20, Revelation 14:17-20
    Note that most of the prophesies about the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, which is the next prophesied event we can expect, being the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Rev. 6:12-17, state that this time He will use fire to ‘set the heavens ablaze, the earth will be enveloped in flames and all that is in it will be brought to judgement’. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 66:15-16, Zephaniah 3:8

    But the Lord’s people have a Powerful Advocate, He promises to protect and save His righteous people. Jeremiah 50:33-34, Isaiah 51:16, Nahum 1:7, Psalms 60:4-5, Zechariah 9:15-16

    Psalms 30:1-5 I shall exalt You Lord, for You have lifted me up and not let enemies prevail. I cried out to You and You healed me, You saved my life as I was sinking into the abyss. Sing praises to the Lord, all you His loyal servants, give thanks to His holy name. In His anger there is punishment, but in His favour there is life. There may be distress at nightfall, but the morning will bring rejoicing.
     
  3. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    As I'm lead to understand, the event we would be most immediately looking forward to is the coming of the King of Babel on Tevet 10. That would be the "parousia" that comes with "all power" of which Paul speaks in the 2nd letter to the Thessalonians. He deceives the churches and the world into accepting him as the return of Jesus Christ. Only a remnant will remain unconquered, as they will know who he really is. The real second coming will occur at the appointed time afterward.
     
  4. Another Lazarus

    Another Lazarus Old Newbie

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    Who knows, it can happen very soon.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Don't you think there must be some kind of dramatic occurrence to enable this 'king' to gain power?
    The Bible prophesies tell of such an, as yet unfulfilled worldwide disaster. Shouldn't we, who read and believe the Bible, know about and be prepared for it?
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    But a pre-trib rapture removal to heaven of living people, just isn't prophesied. Why believe it?
     
  7. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    Honestly, when it comes to the literal understanding I can't really be sure. I can offer speculation and conjecture, but that's about it. In speculation I would conjecture that this "king" will come straight out of "heaven" with an accompaniment of "angels" in a parousia of all power, which would appear to most people as the second coming. But whatever it is, it should be made transparent by the timing of its happening. Something that everyone witnesses occurring on a specific day and month, as opposed to, another specific day and month. Those aware of the timing recorded in scripture will be able to say "This is the King of Babel, the son of perdition" while everyone else without knowledge of the timing will be deceived with "strong delusion" into believing it is the return of Jesus Christ.
     
  8. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  12. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  13. Straightshot

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    "The dead in Christ shall rise first.
    So how are those in Rev. 14 noted as to die?"


    Good question

    Today's church of the Lord's true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living just before the coming tribulation will be made immortal [Revelation 3:10]

    Then there will be no believers left upon the earth just at the beginning of the tribulation

    However, some are going to repent and turn to the Lord in the tribulation [Revelation 3:15-19] .... the first will be the 144000 of Israel [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7] and these will spread the gospel of the kingdom first to Israel and then to the nations

    Others who turn to the Lord during the period will either be martyred for their faith [Revelation 6:9-11], or they will survive and enter the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

    Here is the proof of those who will be made immortal before the tribulation begins .... they are seen dwelling in heaven during the period [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those already on thrones]]
     
  14. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  15. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The usual deluded rapturist 'proof' that isn't proof at all of living people being in heaven:
    Revelation 20:4 is after Jesus Returns and is the resurrection of the martyrs.
    Revelation 19:14 says it is the armies of heaven, not humans, who accompany Him.
    Revelation 19:1-3 is the martyrs praising God for taking vengeance on their killers.
    Revelation 19:5-9 tells how those people who have kept their faith during all the trials, are made ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. This is not in heaven.
    Revelation 17:14 Where does the Lamb wage war against the 'beast'? On earth!
    Revelation 13:6 The 'beast' blasphemes against those who dwell in heaven. Not earth people.
    Revelation 11:1 Obviously the Temple is on earth, as we see in v2, it is given over to the gentiles for 42 months.
    Revelation 7:9-14 is all on earth and depicts those who have stood firm in their faith during the terrible Sixth Seal disaster. v15-17 are after the Millennium.
    Revelation 5:1-10 Is the heavenly scene after Jesus Ascension. He is told about the people He has bought with His blood and they will reign on earth.
    Revelation 4:4 is just the 24 elders. We don't know who they are.

    Straightshot, please do not post your unbiblical rubbish here. A rapture removal to heaven isn't what the Bible prophesies tell us will happen.
    What we are looking forward to, is the fulfilment of God's plans for all His true believers, as they live in all of the holy Land, in peace and prosperity, being the people He always wanted there: His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  16. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The enemies of the Lord gather - Micah 4:11, Ezekiel 36:2
    They conspire to attack Israel - Psalms 83:1-8, Isaiah 21:2
    They prepare their weapons - Psalms 7:12, Ezekiel 7:14
    This is the situation we have now.

    At the moment of attack, God will use His Creation, the sun to send fire - Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-35, Isaiah 30:26 & 30, Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5, , Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17
    The sun will explode with an extremely bright flash and the moon will reflect bright red - Isaiah 30:26, Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Habakkuk 3:3-5

    The Lord will make their weapons recoil upon themselves, the EMP hit will explode them- Psalms 7:13-16, Joel 3:4, Obadiah 15

    Then the sun, moon and stars will be obscured by the approaching Coronal Mass Ejection - Psalm 18:11-12, Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 32:7-8, Amos 8:9

    A huge superhot mass of hydrogen plasma approaches the earthJoel 1:15-20, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 1:14-18

    Everyone on earth will be shocked and terrified - Jeremiah 6:24-26, Ezekiel 21:5-7a, Isaiah 13:6-8, Revelation 6:15-17

    The atmosphere will be pushed asideRevelation 6:14, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 34:4
    The whole earth will be enveloped by fire - Isaiah 66:15, Zeph. 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7
    Only a remnant will survive in the Holy Land - Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13
    He will judge the nations, all the wicked will die - Isaiah 63:1-6, Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 14 18-20, Isaiah 66:17, Isaiah 29:20-21, Hebrews 10:27

    His enemies will become ashes - Malachi 4:3, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 49:2, Matthew 3:12b

    Millions will die around the world - Psalms 97:3-5, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 13:12
    The Lord will protect those who call to Him - Isaiah 43:2, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

    But most people will take shelter until it passes. Isaiah 26:20-21, Isaiah 2:19, Revelation 6:15

    The survivors form a One World Govt. - Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12

    The Holy Land will be regenerated - Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Jeremiah 33:12-14

    And the Lord's righteous people will gather there. - Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9

    They will become the new nation of Beulah - Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 36:3-38, Jer. 31

    They will build a new TempleZechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 40 to 48

    The attack by a Northern army will be won by the LordEzekiel 38:22, Joel 2:20

    The leaders of Beulah will sign a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the O.W.G. Daniel 9:27, Isaiah 28:15

    At the mid point he will break it and conquer Beulah -Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2

    This commences the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation - Rev 8:2

    Those who kept their faith in God will be taken to a safe place on earth. Daniel 11:32b, Revelation 12:14

    3.5 years later, Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign - Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-4

    The Lord has told us His plans and He will not relent or change them - Jeremiah 4:28
    There are plenty more prophesies and details to prove this scenario.
    Believe it or not; up to everyone to decide! Psalms 19:11-12, Isaiah 48:6
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am looking forward to is the redemption of the body. "come up hither", Anytime, as the things start to happen.

    What I am expecting to see is the EU reorganize into the ten leader form of Government with one person over them, the little horn. The domino's will start to fall with the collapse of Deutsche bank, highly likely, and the EU banking system The EU is also in the process of creating a EU army.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    So after the EMP destroys all of the world's TV, Radio, Internet infrastructure, grid - how is the world going to observe the two witnesses laying dead in the streets of Jerusalem - exchange presents with each other - and then 3 1/2 days later see them come back to life and ascend (to where btw) - "come up hither" is in the text ?

    Keras, you have not thought it through very well. The world's power and communication infrastructure needs to be in place, not destroyed. In the first half of the 7 years for certain, and for a big portion of the world the second half.
     
  19. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    This is a very weak argument against the Sixth Seal; Lord's Day of wrath being the next prophesied event.
    Landline telephone and radio communication can be restored very quickly and we have the knowledge to re-establish TV, send up new satellites, get computers linked again, etc.
    You need to study more on what God has said He will do. The prophets give us a very detailed picture of the Day the Lord will take action.

    You still keep on harping about the EU. Can't you see the EU is practically history and will never be a strong 10 nation confederation?
    Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 17 make it clear the 'beast' will control all the world, in a One World Govt, as is already planned and fits the prophesies correctly.
    You do realize: your anytime rapture is a joke?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Have you never heard the saying - Rome was not built in a day? It will not be like an outage due to a storm, a downed power line, or blown transformer. It will be the destruction of entire systems. Those systems were built over decades.

    The EU is still there, Keras, and are preparing to build a EU super army. Nothing about a ten "nation" confederation, but ten kings over ten regions of the EU. There is not one word in the bible about a one world government. The EU and the west will be the dominant quadrant over the other three quadrants of the world - that's how the bible in Daniel 11, has defined the powers of the world at the end, kings of the north, south, east (also in Revelation 16). and west (implied).

    Luke 21:34-36 is no joke.

    When the two witnesses come back to life and ascend when they hear "come up hither", where do they ascend to ?


    11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    In Revelation 4:1 John hears the same voice... come up hither... where does he ascend to?

    1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


    And you say no-one will be caught up to go to heaven in the rapture.... really, Keras, really? The joke is not with what I believe, Keras.
     
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