What we need is another Pearl Harbor

[belladonic-haze]

I am not asking this to start a debate, I truely want to understand your view.

If diplomatic negotiation have failed and another group/country is coming onto your land to kill your family/friends/neighbors, what do you do if you do not fight them? (ON a smaller scale if someone enters your home to kill a family member . . . do you just let them and make them coffee to go?)

What do you do if not fight once negotiations have failed? Do you let the other side eliminate you/family/friends?

I have never understood the pacifist viewpoint. I do not understand how it can work in reality. Please enlighten me.

I think that many that hold this view have never lived in countries where they have to fight in order to survive. (such as Isreal)

Ah, the eternal struggle....fight or not. What has war brought us? Is the world free of violence and war today? Can everyone live their lives in peace, make their own free choices and follow their own road? Will our children and their children and so on not suffer anymore? Does the eye for an eye method work?

As long as we are stubborn and not accepting people of different race color creed or bubblegum flavor just the way they are.....we'll keep having violence. Respect compassion and love are the only way. War is NEVER a way to peace.

We are an agressive species that think we are evolved beyond being like animals but we tread our own species worse than animals do. Yes, animals kill....they are eaten or eat......Nature is a cruel place...but really....killing someone over his haircolor, the kind of toothpaste they use or whatever?....Isn't that cruel?

I do not know how I will react to a violent act against my family, but I hope I will have the strenght to seek the peaceful way...it's harder, thougher and in my humble opinion more brave....Maybe I will be able to use violence, I don't know...No matter how people treated me I never used violence.....but if it involves someone I love I might use it....I am after all just human......I just hope I can be as peaceful as Gandhi, Buddha and Jesus at the same time

 

[Ivy]

I'm very fond of peace, I love living in a country where there has been no war on our soil since the Civil War.

Much to my sadness, though, the Scriptures don't say "All times are the time for peace," but "There is a time for war and a time for peace."

I don't even watch war movies; I can't bear them--but yet I think unbalanced pacifism is as dangerous as war, because it results in the same thing: violence.

Pacifism sometimes results in the toleration of violence, as in the U.N.'s lovely dovely tolerance of all the violence that has been done against Israel by radical Muslims. It's selective tolerance of violence based on who owns the oil wells.

 

[Poke]

Hezbollah started a fight they wanted to have.

You mean: Israel started a fight Hezbollah was prepared for.

I can't respect views based on faulty facts.

 

[Ivy]

Blaming Israel for anti-semitism is like blaming deer for deer hunters.

I agree.

 

[BarbB]

You mean: Israel started a fight Hezbollah was prepared for.

I can't respect views based on faulty facts.

Please state your citation for your (faulty) facts.

Israel has suffered from attacks by Hezbollah as well as have the USA, GB, Italy, and Spain. We should be on our knees thanking Israel that they are doing our dirty work. My only complaint is that they are not moving fast enough since they are trying to be sensitive to civilians. Shame on them, since their enemy doesn't do the same.

 

[BarbB]

...

 

[PastorMikeJ]

I went into the service in July of '68, but became a "Love Child in Uniform" and hung out with the Hippies more than I did with my fellow Airmen . My Dad served in the Korean War about the time I was born.
War is hell!

I served 30 months in Nam..My brother was in Korea and my father served in ww2...and war is hell....before I finished my 30 months in Nam I knew that we were wrong being there...but I stayed until my commitment was over then came home and joined the Vietnam Veterans against the War until they turned voilent..then for 10- 15 yrs I hid the fact that I was a Nam Vet...worked in jobs that I didn't have to tell about my past...people here made us ashamed to be nam vets...so why would anyone believe we need another pearl harbor....wasn't that what we called 9/11?? isn't that why we are at"war" today?

I am sorry if this offends anyone or labels me as anti- american...but I hate war and I hate governments at allow wars to start and to continue them...

Support your returning vets...vets remember vets are for vets... as vets we must do all we can for other vets...

 

[Poke]

Blaming Israel for anti-semitism is like blaming deer for deer hunters.

Israel is a regional superpower, a war machine that illegally occupies land of 3 or 4 countries, brutally oppresses the Palestinian people, holds thousands of political prisoners, has more UN resolutions against it (with US votes) than any other country in the world, kills civilians almost every day, year after year, and you compare Israel to Bambi!?!

Why didn't Israel share pre 9-11 intelligence with the US? Why did Israel try to sink the USS Liberty? Why does Israel refuse to return jewish criminals to the US, who commit crimes in America and flee to Israel? What is it that makes you think Israel is a friend of America?

<edited>

Why don't you cut out the propaganda and deal in substance?

 

[andybmi]

I am going to move from political debate on to the words of Christ taking simple point of view to then change our out look. We are to bless those who curse us. We are to to GOOD to those who mistreat us. Also to pray for them. We are to love our enemys. (Killing them would not be recieved as love in any culture i can think of!) He who want to keep his life will lose it. He who loses his life for my sake will keep. All here seem to be in deep fear of loseing their life their freedom. So much so they are talking in a way that contradicts the clear teachings of Christ. There are wars and rumours of war. Dont get caught up in the things of this world. We are a royal people, a holy nation a people for Gods own possesion we are a nation under God. Not America, not Isreal, but Christians... His kingdom is what matters having His kingdom and its culture becoming ours. What so ever is good, pure and Holy think upon these things. Let not your heart be troubled. May I give u a run down of deep theology on Revelation... We win the end. Relax, not by your works or your might, but by His Spirit chill... relax. The Jews used to kill Christains Paul was there as Stephen was stoned to death. Some how that act of laying down his life, effected Paul. Some would argue even leading to Sauls conversion to Paul. Praise God the terrorist turned Christian and fighter for the cause. Stephens obedience played a big part. Many Maryters have laid down their lives and amazing things happened. Dont be so worry so much about these things. Philippians is a good book to read it shows us Pauls out look on life. It would be good to have that. He lists his sufferings and then is so positive. Shows us what he counts as lost for Christ. Then we seen for him to live is Christ, to die is even GAIN! We see dont worry ur citizenship is in heaven, if we really believed these things we wouldnt be so worried and focused on the times in fear unable to look away with all these wild crazy ideas of agreeing with killing those God is desperate to save and love. If we really had the out look paul has there. The out look Christ had when He said, no greater love has a man than the one who gives his life for his friends, I call u friends... love is the greatest most powerful thing 1 Cor 13... learn of love, love the muslim, love the atheist, love the terrorist... pray for all love all God does, pray for them with broken hearts that Pauls would rise up in Islam that those who persecute will soon fight for the faith with the vigor that paul did... amen. rely on God not the failing febble governments of this world.

 

[Treppers]

“Israel has suffered from attacks by Hezbollah as well as have the USA, GB, Italy, and Spain.” - BarbB

What on earth are you talking about? Hezbollah have attacked the UK, US, Spain and Italy? I just don't know what to do except laugh. Not a single citation to back these ludicrous claims up.


“We should be on our knees thanking Israel that they are doing our dirty work.” - BarbB

Presumably this comment is supposed to follow on from the previous sentence, and since Hezbollah have never attacked the UK etc., it is complete nonsense.


“My only complaint is that they are not moving fast enough since they are trying to be sensitive to civilians.”

Trying to avoid civilian casualties? Again a preposterous claim. Here's just four mainstream sources to back up a claim that significant portions of the Israeli establishment and military are best ambivalent about civilian casualties.

- Source number one - - Source number two - - Source three- - Source four-

Doubtless you have some obscure, unheard of website to 'refute' these independent, highly professional organisations. But then why accept the word of such organisations over the bizarre ravings of blind apologists for horror?


”Shame on them, since their enemy doesn't do the same.” - BarbB

I hope I am misunderstanding you, since it sounds as though you are advocating giving even less care (if that’s possible) to avoiding Lebanese civilian casualties. As I said, if my understanding of this statement is wrong, I am most happy have you explain what you meant. If my understanding is correct, then I must ask you if you have a brain, heart, soul… in fact any shred humanity in you.

BarbB: You are so sycophantic toward Israel, I was just wondering if the ADL or some other organisation pays you to troll these boards spouting off gibberish? Just curious.

 

[ContraMundum]

Israel is a regional superpower, a war machine that illegally occupies land of 3 or 4 countries, brutally oppresses the Palestinian people, holds thousands of political prisoners, has more UN resolutions against it (with US votes) than any other country in the world, kills civilians almost every day, year after year, and you compare Israel to Bambi!?!

Utter nonsense. "Brutally oppresses"- what a load of rubbish. "illegally occupies"- according to who? You and your behead-for-Allah mates?

"Holds thousands of political prisoners"- my favorite. A political prisoner in Israel is not some Trotskyist or some hapless bozo who reads too much "dissident" literuature- he or she is the kind of "political" (read: religious) activist that blows up busses with kids on them- are you so naive as to think that the population doesn't want such creeps put away? It would be an outrage if they weren't?

Look, my family own a house in Israel, and not once has any of us ever seen "brutal oppression" of Palestinians. Not once. In fact, we have Palestinian neighbours that love Israel more than the goofballs that you give your soft-sit-at-home-and-pontificate sympathies to. Your just another outsider who thinks they know everything because we all know that Americans are right about everything pertaining to politics and religion, right?

Hey CM, Israel hates America. Why didn't Israel share pre 9-11 intelligence with the US? Why did Israel try to sink the USS Liberty? Why does Israel refuse to return jewish criminals to the US, who commit crimes in America and flee to Israel? What is it that makes you think Israel is a friend of America?

The best thing about conspiracy theories is they can't be proven. I'd like to see you prove the above rhetoric with hard facts, facts not hewn from the "giant" minds of the Fortean Times.

As for extradition of prisoners- very few countries do that. Western criminals die and are executed in countries such as Indonesia and Thailand every year- and the US is holding five Cuban "political" prisoners as we speak- and they won't ever extradite them will they? What planet does your mind live on?

Israel also denies that Jesus is of God (which is the biblical definition of antichrist),

So does Hezbollah. What's your point? Whose side are you on?

Judaism says that if you are a Christian you have the right to live and the possibility of a good afterlife. Hezbollah and other radicals behead people for lesser religious "infractions".

Tell me, when was the last time Jews beheaded innocent foreign workers in their own country and sent us the video tape?

I think you need to pick sides, and fast.

Why don't you cut out the propaganda and deal in substance? Eveything I hear from zionists is propaganda without regard to the substance of actual events or what the Bible really teaches.

Well, if you wish to debate the Bible, go ahead. I'm, up for it. However, if you wish to debate political conspiracy theories then I would say that it is you who needs to back such theories up.

 

[ContraMundum]

Trying to avoid civilian casualties? Again a preposterous claim. Here's just four mainstream sources to back up a claim that significant portions of the Israeli establishment and military are best ambivalent about civilian casualties.

- Source number one - - Source number two - - Source three- - Source four-

Doubtless you have some obscure, unheard of website to 'refute' these independent, highly professional organisations. But then why accept the word of such organisations over the bizarre ravings of blind apologists for horror?

Oh Plu-eeeeze don't tell me you think those silly sites are worth anything less than the mainstream sites who take a different position. Surely you must be joking.

HRW is a known to be on occasion void of intelligent and professional work. Beit Salem is not much better. This is not journalism, folks. It's called propaganda. Everyone does it. No media outlet is perfect, but you can't take these one-trick-ponies to be the final word.

Ever looked into the history of those organisations? I think you should.

Anyway, let me give you some light, champ. You have your sources, I have mine. Where's the truth? Compare.

This article has some good points anyone commenting should consider: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/The_Rules_of_War.asp

 

[ContraMundum]

You mean: Israel started a fight Hezbollah was prepared for.

I can't respect views based on faulty facts.

That's insidious and is so absurd you surely must be reading propaganda and believing it.

Who kidnapped the Israeli soldiers? The IDF or Hezbollah? Whose been bombing Isreal for months now, withour reprisal until now? The IDF, or Hezbollah? So, who provoked Isreal to attack, it's own army or Hezbollah?

I think you misjudged the power of provoking a nation. Hezbollah provoked Israel, and they wanted to.

Islamic expert David Maceoin put it this way- 'Israel's elimination is being planned, plotted, scheduled'- http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525812575&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Whose side are you going to take?

 

[Poke]

0

You are so sycophantic toward Israel, I was just wondering if the ADL or some other organisation pays you to troll these boards spouting off gibberish? Just curious.

I've come to the conclusion that zionism is a most evil doctrine. Not only is it theologically satanic, but only evil comes from this view. Imagine so-called Christians being upset at a country for supposedly trying to avoid harming civilians, never mind that this country started a full blown war ostensibly to get two soldiers back (two soldiers who were captured in Lebanon for exchange for political prisoners held held by Israel). It's all the more wicked, psychotic, and disgusting of zionists that the country accused of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing around civilians is hardly restrained at all in its attacks on civilians.

 

[ContraMundum]

0

I've come to the conclusion that zionism is a most evil doctrine. Not only is it theologically satanic, but only evil comes from this view. Imagine so-called Christians being upset at a country for supposedly trying to avoid harming civilians, never mind that this country started a full blown war ostensibly to get two soldiers back (two soldiers who were captured in Lebanon for exchange for political prisoners held held by Israel). It's all the more wicked, psychotic, and disgusting of zionists that the country accused of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing around civilians is hardly restrained at all in its attacks on civilians.

How come you don't address the articles directed at you?

What you claim is just nonsense. Back it up, with maintream, aggreable sources. Then you might have a point.

As for Zionism being "a most evil doctrine", can I suggest you find another religion, as God gave the land of Israel to the Jews, before you and I or even Christ was born, and that was the beginning of Zionism. It looks like you might have argued against God then as you do now. In other words, God's responsible for His people having a land, it's His idea. Whether you think modern day Israel should exist or not is beside the point- Zionism is not and cannot be "evil". Israel exists whether you like it or not and it's with God's permission, as nothing happens without His sovereign will.

Perhaps you might consider Islam as your new religion, I think, but you'd still have to throw out the idea found in the OT that God gave a certain land to a certain people.

Looks like you're in a theological pickle.