What We Know About the Killing of Elijah McClain

[disciple Clint]

From your link:

so in the end it's always going to be up to how the cops are feeling that night as to who lives and who dies if someone is stopped by the police. Which is pretty much what I've been saying from the beginning of this thread. They started the confrontation, they escalated the confrontation, they swarmed him, they choked him, they drugged him, he ended up dead so obviously it's all his fault.
tulc(is going to need a lot more coffee)

come on we have addressed all that before and you just will not accept the facts of this event. It has nothing to do with how the cops are feeling, cops do not say, hey I feel a little angry tonight I think I will go kill someone. Do cops make mistakes, yes we all do. You are taking the small number of unfortunate events and trying to make them look like they happen every day and there are a massive number of victims, the facts do not come anywhere close to supporting that view.

 

[Arcangl86]

Is it just me, or is some of the language used about police similar abusive. Instead of the police being expected to follow the law, we are expected to do what they say without question on pain of violence. Elijah had a constitutional right to go about his business if the police didn't have reasonable suspicion that he was committing a crime. BTW, reasonable suspicion is a pretty low bar, below probable cause which is what the standard for a warrant.

 

[disciple Clint]

Is it just me, or is some of the language used about police similar abusive. Instead of the police being expected to follow the law, we are expected to do what they say without question on pain of violence. Elijah had a constitutional right to go about his business if the police didn't have reasonable suspicion that he was committing a crime. BTW, reasonable suspicion is a pretty low bar, below probable cause which is what the standard for a warrant.

having on a ski mask in August would qualify as reasonable suspicion that he intended to commit a crime, acting somewhat out of control in the store would cause reasonable suspicion that he could intend to hurt himself or someone else. I have no idea what you feel justifies your statement "we are expected to do what they say without question on pain of violence." It is always in the best interests of the police to resolve problems as easily as possible. Had the young man stopped and talked to the officer so that the officer could determine that he was not a threat to himself or anyone else and had a reasonable explanation for the ski mask, all would have been fine and the event would have been resolved quickly without injury to anyone.

 

[The Barbarian]

"None of us are required by law to cooperate in any way." that is the kind of statement that causes youth to think that they should not cooperate with the police, That is exactly the wrong attitude to take when dealing with the police and that attitude escalates it situation to a level that was never required.

As you just learned, it's the law. The attitude that one must give up one's right when a government functionary demands it, is the attitude that's the problem. If one thinks the law is the problem, then it's clear what the real problem is.

It is obvious that you equate the police to dogs

I have the highest regard for dogs, who are almost always more honorable than most people. But if you act like prey in the face of an aggressive dog, you are asking for pain. So it is with aggressive people. You should learn this.

and that is fine you can deal with the consequences of your decisions but you need to consider that your statements may cause someone to get themselves, arrested, or injured, or even killed depending on how they elect to follow your advice of ""None of us are required by law to cooperate in any way."

You're accusing the Supreme Court of the United States, not me. I'm just telling you what they ruled. And yes, it is law.

stop practicing law

It's what tyrants always do when faced with a citizen who knows his rights. "Stop practicing law." Good cops like it when citizens know their rights. The bad ones hate it. It's one of the easy way to tell a crooked cop from a good one.

And BTW, in a free society, it's your responsibility to know your rights.

and putting other people at risk with your irresponsible statements. If anyone simplly follows the directions of the ACLU when they are stopped by the police they will be safe.

Notice, none of this says you have to give up your rights, or cooperate with any investigation. Unless you're operating a motor vehicle, you don't have to identify yourself in any way, absent a reasonable articulable suspicion that you committed or are in the process of committing a crime. You will commit a crime if you lie in any way to an officer, however. And no, he's not obligated to be truthful with you. Supreme Court ruling.

How to reduce risk to yourself

• 
  
• Stay calm. Don’t run, resist, or obstruct the officers. Do not lie or give false documents. Keep your hands where the police can see them.
  
• How to reduce risk to yourself
  • 
    
  • Stop the car in a safe place as quickly as possible.
    
  • Turn off the car, turn on the internal light, open the window part way, and place your hands on the wheel. If you’re in the passenger seat, put your hands on the dashboard.
    
  • Upon request, show police your driver’s license, registration, and proof of insurance.
    
  • Avoid making sudden movements, and keep your hands where the officer can see them.

Good advice. Turning on the dome light is a huge deal, because a cop relaxes a little if he can see everything in the car, and sees no threats. It's not common, but one of the ways cops get killed, is unknowingly stopping a criminal on a routine traffic stop, and the criminal panics, and shoots him.

Besides, it gives the cop notice that you're considering his safety, which won't hurt. That's like me volunteering to show my ID to that cop at Love Field. She was young and a bit overzealous, so I acted amused and gave her more compliance than she asked for. It was a way of gently chiding her without being overtly critical.

But I made sure that she knew that I knew, I didn't have to do it. Sometimes citizens train police. If you surrender your rights without objection, you train them to act lawlessly. And that's what gets people killed.

 

[The Barbarian]

having on a ski mask in August would qualify as reasonable suspicion that he intended to commit a crime,

No, and there's case law that settles that question. It's been tried, and courts have rejected the argument. Businesses do have the right to ban masks from their property, as any private property owner may do. Otherwise, police are not allowed to infer criminal intent from a mask.

It is always in the best interests of the police to resolve problems as easily as possible.

But not always what they want. There are adrenaline junkies who love conflict. Many of them gravitate to police or fire departments.

Had the young man stopped and talked to the officer so that the officer could determine that he was not a threat to himself or anyone else and had a reasonable explanation for the ski mask, all would have been fine and the event would have been resolved quickly without injury to anyone.

But he was not legally obligated to do so, and the police could not lawfully stop him absent the reasonable suspicion of a crime. And the courts have already ruled that a mask is not reasonable evidence of a crime.

That's how it is. If he was socially less awkward, he'd probably still be alive. But being odd is not punishable by death from cop, nor is it an acceptable excuse for unlawful behavior.

And police are trained to handle this lawfully; some just ignore the law when they think they can.

 

[disciple Clint]

As you just learned, it's the law. The attitude that one must give up one's right when a government functionary demands it, is the attitude that's the problem. If one thinks the law is the problem, then it's clear what the real problem is.



I have the highest regard for dogs, who are almost always more honorable than most people. But if you act like prey in the face of an aggressive dog, you are asking for pain. So it is with aggressive people. You should learn this.



You're accusing the Supreme Court of the United States, not me. I'm just telling you what they ruled. And yes, it is law.



It's what tyrants always do when faced with a citizen who knows his rights. "Stop practicing law." Good cops like it when citizens know their rights. The bad ones hate it. It's one of the easy way to tell a crooked cop from a good one.

And BTW, in a free society, it's your responsibility to know your rights.



Notice, none of this says you have to give up your rights, or cooperate with any investigation. Unless you're operating a motor vehicle, you don't have to identify yourself in any way, absent a reasonable articulable suspicion that you committed or are in the process of committing a crime. You will commit a crime if you lie in any way to an officer, however. And no, he's not obligated to be truthful with you. Supreme Court ruling.

How to reduce risk to yourself

• 
  
• Stay calm. Don’t run, resist, or obstruct the officers. Do not lie or give false documents. Keep your hands where the police can see them.
• How to reduce risk to yourself
  • 
    
  • Stop the car in a safe place as quickly as possible.
    
  • Turn off the car, turn on the internal light, open the window part way, and place your hands on the wheel. If you’re in the passenger seat, put your hands on the dashboard.
    
  • Upon request, show police your driver’s license, registration, and proof of insurance.
    
  • Avoid making sudden movements, and keep your hands where the officer can see them.

Good advice. Turning on the dome light is a huge deal, because a cop relaxes a little if he can see everything in the car, and sees no threats. It's not common, but one of the ways cops get killed, is unknowingly stopping a criminal on a routine traffic stop, and the criminal panics, and shoots him.

Besides, it gives the cop notice that you're considering his safety, which won't hurt. That's like me volunteering to show my ID to that cop at Love Field. She was young and a bit overzealous, so I acted amused and gave her more compliance than she asked for. It was a way of gently chiding her without being overtly critical.

But I made sure that she knew that I knew, I didn't have to do it. Sometimes citizens train police. If you surrender your rights without objection, you train them to act lawlessly. And that's what gets people killed.

Like I said I hope you do not end up getting some kid arrested or hurt with what you think is wisdom.

 

[disciple Clint]

No, and there's case law that settles that question. It's been tried, and courts have rejected the argument. Businesses do have the right to ban masks from their property, as any private property owner may do. Otherwise, police are not allowed to infer criminal intent from a mask.



But not always what they want. There are adrenaline junkies who love conflict. Many of them gravitate to police or fire departments.



But he was not legally obligated to do so, and the police could not lawfully stop him absent the reasonable suspicion of a crime. And the courts have already ruled that a mask is not reasonable evidence of a crime.

That's how it is. If he was socially less awkward, he'd probably still be alive. But being odd is not punishable by death from cop, nor is it an acceptable excuse for unlawful behavior.

And police are trained to handle this lawfully; some just ignore the law when they think they can.

I am absolutely convinced that you have no idea what so ever of what you are talking about. good luck

 

[The Barbarian]

let me know when you get a law degree because once again you are wrong, the officer had a legal reason to stop the subject.

You're a little confused about the law. A cop can stop anyone and ask a question; what they can't do, absent RAS, is detain the person or insist that they speak with them.

Let me show you, again:

Here's what the law says:
Police officers need no justification to stop someone on a public street and ask questions, and individuals are completely entitled to refuse to answer any such questions and go about their business. However, the Fourth Amendment prohibits police officers from detaining pedestrians and conducting any kind of search of their clothing without first possessing a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the pedestrians are engaged in criminal activity. Terry v. Ohio, 392U.S. 1, 88 S. Ct. 1868, 21 L. Ed. 889 (1968). Police may not even compel a pedestrian to produce identification without first meeting this standard.

 

[The Barbarian]

You still do not have a law degree

But I do know what the law says. I showed you several times. As a photographer, it's important to know these things.

There is no requirement to have a criminal charge in hand when the officer investigates, all that is required is a reasonable suspicion that the person has or might commit a crime.

A reasonable articulible suspicion. If the officer cannot tell the citizen what that is, he cannot lawfully detain him, as you just learned. I showed you the law, which the Supreme Court made clear, in Terry v. Ohio.

I strongly suggest you read the ACLU article I posted in my last article and stop encouraging people to start out with an attitude about the police when then encounter them.

You're still confused. One can assert one's rights in a calm and respectful way. The law does not require that you be calm or respectful, but it's a good idea as I told you earlier. Notice the way I handled an overzealous cop at Love Field. Respectful, but assertive.

There are cops whose egos can't handle the assertion of one's rights. But there aren't many. Probably, the best thing for those who encounter a lawless officer is to assert their right, but to say that if they chose to violate the law, they will comply under protest. That preserves your rights, and puts them in liability, if they chose to proceed.

 

[The Barbarian]

I am absolutely convinced that you have no idea what so ever of what you are talking about.

Dunning-Kruger is hard to overcome. Good Luck.

 

[The Barbarian]

Like I said I hope you do not end up getting some kid arrested or hurt with what you think is wisdom.

You're far more likely to get beat up or arrested, if the police think you're ignorant of your rights. That's been documented again and again.

But keep in mind, that would happen only with the relatively few criminals in police forces. And with reforms on the way, I suspect that the good ones are going to be doing a better job of removing those criminals than they are doing now.

Looks as though they know it's coming...

272 uniformed NYPD cops file for retirement after George Floyd death
https://nypost.com/2020/06/27/272-nypd-cops-file-for-retirement-since-floyd-protests/

Self-cleansing. Good idea.

 

[disciple Clint]

Dunning-Kruger is hard to overcome. Good Luck.

Don't give up, you can do it

 

[disciple Clint]

You're far more likely to get beat up or arrested, if the police think you're ignorant of your rights. That's been documented again and again.

But keep in mind, that would happen only with the relatively few criminals in police forces. And with reforms on the way, I suspect that the good ones are going to be doing a better job of removing those criminals than they are doing now.

Looks as though they know it's coming...

272 uniformed NYPD cops file for retirement after George Floyd death
https://nypost.com/2020/06/27/272-nypd-cops-file-for-retirement-since-floyd-protests/

Self-cleansing. Good idea.

You have said "You're far more likely to get beat up or arrested, if the police think you're ignorant of your rights. That's been documented again and again." I say show me the evidence.

 

[The Barbarian]

You have said "You're far more likely to get beat up or arrested, if the police think you're ignorant of your rights. That's been documented again and again." I say show me the evidence.

As mentioned previously, law enforcement officers exercise power through discretion. ...the police have too much discretion, with the end result being “too much street justice” for the poor, while ignoring crimes of the powerful, of which the police are a member (Box, 2008, p.274).
4.2 The Ethics of Power and Authority – Ethics in Law Enforcement

 

[disciple Clint]

As mentioned previously, law enforcement officers exercise power through discretion. ...the police have too much discretion, with the end result being “too much street justice” for the poor, while ignoring crimes of the powerful, of which the police are a member (Box, 2008, p.274).
4.2 The Ethics of Power and Authority – Ethics in Law Enforcement

That totally fails to support your claim that "You're far more likely to get beat up or arrested, if the police think you're ignorant of your rights. That's been documented again and again." Where is the evidence for the statement that you made, show me the evidence should be easy since you said it has "been documented again and again".

 

[Tom 1]

Question:

caller: There is a person acting strange wearing a ski mask and waving his hands around.

Police cannot go and investigate?

Thus ends crime prevention because police cannot interact unless there is a crime committed, or suspected of being committed.

Investigate? What? A person wearing a mask and ‘waving their hands’? What on Earth are you talking about? On some level you must have at least some awareness that your view on this is utterly insane. What’s next? Reporting on your neighbour for getting out of bed ‘in an unusual manner’ or ‘casting suspicious glances’? Maybe you should move to Salem and start wearing a frock coat.

 

[Tom 1]

didn't have to happen all he had to do was stop and talk to the police, all he had to do was not attack the police officer, lets not forget what caused the problem.

As you are fully aware, he was under no obligation to do anything of the sort. Your desperate attempts to bend reality to support - what exactly? The right of the police to stop and kill someone because someone said they look funny? When reality and what you think don’t match up, it isn’t reality that needs adjusting.

 

[disciple Clint]

Investigate? What? A person wearing a mask and ‘waving their hands’? What on Earth are you talking about? On some level you must have at least some awareness that your view on this is utterly insane. What’s next? Reporting on your neighbour for getting out of bed ‘in an unusual manner’ or ‘casting suspicious glances’? Maybe you should move to Salem and start wearing a frock coat.

now that is being ridiculous, a call about someone who has on a ski mask in August and is acting like they are agitated is something that needs to be called to the attention of the police and investigated. How do you even attempt to make something that is obviously abnormal look like something that should not create suspicion?

 

[Tom 1]

now that is being ridiculous, a call about someone who has on a ski mask in August and is acting like they are agitated is something that needs to be called to the attention of the police and investigated. How do you even attempt to make something that is obviously abnormal look like something that should not create suspicion?

Wearing a mask is not ‘abnormal’ behaviour by any stretch of the imagination, anywhere in the world. It certainly doesn’t constitute criminal activity. Those are just simple, basic, easy to understand facts.

 

[disciple Clint]

As you are fully aware, he was under no obligation to do anything of the sort. Your desperate attempts to bend reality to support - what exactly? The right of the police to stop and kill someone because someone said they look funny? When reality and what you think don’t match up, it isn’t reality that needs adjusting.

Please get serious, the police had every reason to stop him, it is called reasonable suspicion, why would someone have a ski mask on in August? maybe because he intends to do something that he does not want to be identified as doing? Why is he acting like he is agitated and throwing his arms around? Is he angry, does he have mental health issues? Is he in crisis? Does he need help? Either one of those would be reasonable as a cause for police contact.