What We Know About the Killing of Elijah McClain

The Barbarian

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Summation - what do the officers do, if the person they are stopping fits the description of a suspect?

You're still dodging the answer. If there a reasonable, articulable suspicion of a crime committed or being committed by an individual, they may detain that individual. Otherwise, they may not. "Fit the description" will not work, because it's too vague to be legally defensible. For example, the man I knew, who was told he "fit the description", even though his height, body build, and clothing did not fit the description. He was black though, and the cop defaulted to "all those people look alike to me."

Which is why it won't work.

Bottom line; unless the officers gave the individual a reasonable explanation of why they suspected him of a crime, he could not be lawfully detained. No wiggle room there, according to the Supreme Court of the United States.

Nor did he need a reason to refuse to cooperate; it was his right, and the police have no business whatever demanding a reason.

Otherwise, consequences are indicated for the officers.
 
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The Barbarian

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All which would have been avoided if he simply stopped and spoke with the officers. His actions escalated the violence.

No. A citizen deciding to exercise his rights, cannot be used as an excuse for police to initiate violence, as they did in this case. Since this person only wanted to be left alone, and did nothing at all aggressive until police laid hands on him, there was no "escalation of violence." The Police just got their egos bruised because he asserted his rights, and they chose to initiate violence. Supreme Court has ruled on that, as well.

That's the reality. Again, if freedom is that repugnant to you, why do you even live here?
 
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The Barbarian

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Stay calm. Don’t run, resist, or obstruct the officers. Do not lie or give false documents. Keep your hands where the police can see them.

You don't run from police for the same reason you don't run from an aggressive dog; it tends to arouse their predatory instincts and can lead to an attack. If they illegally lay hands on you, it's unwise to resist, because they have the physical power to hurt you and have already demonstrated that they are willing to violate the law to do it.

When I have been stopped at checkpoints by police at night, I turn on my dome light. Because an officer who can see what's in my car, will be less jumpy and thereby less likely to do something stupid or aggressive. I don't have to do it, but it does me no harm, and might just prevent trouble.

But don't confuse courtesy with mandatory behavior. None of us are required by law to cooperate in any way. Nor is the exercise of those rights license for police to become violent or otherwise violate the law.
 
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hislegacy

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You're still dodging the answer.

I fully recognized what you said regarding rights - I am taking that into account.

why not just answer the question?

in real life what would officer Barbarian do?

The person looks like the one suspected of a crime - he refuses to identify himself or even speak with you - he could be the person - what do you do?

did you ever find the link requested?
 
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hislegacy

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The Police just got their egos bruised because he asserted his rights, and they chose to initiate violence. .

Proof of that please - because I think it is just your opinion and it is inherently flawed.
 
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The Barbarian

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I fully recognized what you said regarding rights - I am taking that into account.

You still seem to be in denial.

why not just answer the question?

in real life what would officer Barbarian do?

You keep fishing for an answer you like. In real life, if there was sufficient suspicion that the citizen had committed a crime or was in the process of committing a crime, then he could be detained. Otherwise, he'd have no need to talk to the police, or even stop for them. That's the law.

So far, you've decline to show that there was a reasonable articulable suspicion. And we all know why.
 
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The Barbarian

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Apparently blue immunity doesn't cover post-mortem celebrations of killing:


Colorado police officers have been suspended and are under investigation over photos allegedly taken near the site of a memorial for Elijah McClain, a 23-year-old massage therapist who died last year following an altercation with police.

The photos reportedly show officers from the Aurora Police Department posing inappropriately near his memorial site and reenacting the carotid restraint used on McClain before his death, sources told Fox affiliate KDVR and CBS Denver.

Interim Aurora Police Chief Vanessa Wilson announced in a Monday statement that the officers “depicted in photographs near the site where Elijah McClain died” were “immediately” put on administrative leave when she learned of the photos last week.

The department has not confirmed how many officers were in the photos and what they were doing. Wilson said the names of the officers, photos and full investigative files will be released after the department conducts an investigation.

The Justice Department also announced Tuesday night that it is reviewing McClain's death to see if a federal civil rights probe is warranted, saying that federal authorities have been investigating the circumstances surrounding the case since last year.
Officers under investigation over photos taken near site of Elijah McClain's memorial
 
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hislegacy

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You still seem to be in denial.

By agreeing with your position I am in denial? That is a new one.



You keep fishing for an answer you like. In real life, if there was sufficient suspicion that the citizen had committed a crime or was in the process of committing a crime, then he could be detained. Otherwise, he'd have no need to talk to the police, or even stop for them. That's the law.

So far, you've decline to show that there was a reasonable articulable suspicion. And we all know why.

You mean besides the citizen who reported a suspicious person?
 
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tulc

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All which would have been avoided if he simply stopped and spoke with the officers. His actions escalated the violence.
(snip)
No he didn't. They started the confrontation, they escalated the confrontation and he's the one who ended up dead. If they had taken just a couple of minutes when they rolled up to just watch him instead of confronting him he'd have probably been in his house and still be alive today, playing his violin for the cats and dogs at the shelter. :sigh:
tulc(just a thought)
 
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The Barbarian

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You mean besides the citizen who reported a suspicious person?

Well, that just puts a finer point on it...

An Aurora citizen reported to police that McClain was acting suspiciously wearing a ski mask, although the caller also indicated that he did not believe anyone was in danger, and that he believed McClain was unarmed.
Death of Elijah McClain - Wikipedia

As you know, someone's impression that someone else is "acting suspiciously" is not sufficient to legally detain a person. Would you like me to show you that, again?
 
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hislegacy

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Well, that just puts a finer point on it...

An Aurora citizen reported to police that McClain was acting suspiciously wearing a ski mask, although the caller also indicated that he did not believe anyone was in danger, and that he believed McClain was unarmed.
Death of Elijah McClain - Wikipedia

As you know, someone's impression that someone else is "acting suspiciously" is not sufficient to legally detain a person. Would you like me to show you that, again?

Are you saying the police should not have taken the call?

Or just ignored it and walked away when he didn’t stop?

Dispatcher: please respond to a suspicious person

Officer: he will not talk to us, so we are leaving.
 
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hislegacy

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No he didn't.

Yes he certainly did.

if he had he would have been on his merry way and petting fuzzy little kitties right now

there you have it, a difference of opinion.
 
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tulc

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Yes he certainly did.
No, he really didn't. He hadn't committed a crime at all and wasn't obligated to talk to the police, which is why they grabbed his arm, because if he pulled away or tensed up when they did that, then they had the excuse they were looking for to ramp up the situation. which they did and it ended up with him dead.

if he had he would have been on his merry way and petting fuzzy little kitties right now
I don't know about you but I think that would be a better outcome for him than "We were checking to see if he was okay and he was okay, well...until we caused his death of course."

there you have it, a difference of opinion.
"A difference of an opinion" is whether or not we disagree on if pineapple on pizza is good or not, not whether or not cops escalating a situation that ends up with a man brain dead in the back of an ambulance is a good thing or not.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)
 
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The Barbarian

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Are you saying the police should not have taken the call?

Sure. Why not? Being a photographer, I've had some moron call in about me taking pictures of bridges or airport terminals. If the officer uses his head, it doesn't have to spiral out of his control.

A few months ago, I was waiting for Mrs. Barbarian's plane at Love Field. So I walked outside to get an evening pano of the curb zone.

While I was shooting, I hear "Ahem." Lady cop there.

"I'm not being rude, but I need to get these taken together. I'll be right with you."

She waited patiently. "So what can I do for you?"

"We got a call about someone taking pictures out here."

"Me and probably 500 others today. You know, I've been taking pictures here for decades, and no one ever asked me about it before this."

"Well, we're hypervigilant now."

I smiled. "Well, I know I don't have to do it, but would you feel better if I showed you my ID?"

She thought she would. But by the time I pulled it out, she just glanced at it, and didn't even record the information. If she left that interaction feeling just a little foolish, I did my good deed for the day.
48034033273_b0444127a3_h.jpg


Or just ignored it and walked away when he didn’t stop?

What does the law say?

Here's what the law says:
Police officers need no justification to stop someone on a public street and ask questions, and individuals are completely entitled to refuse to answer any such questions and go about their business. However, the Fourth Amendment prohibits police officers from detaining pedestrians and conducting any kind of search of their clothing without first possessing a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the pedestrians are engaged in criminal activity. Terry v. Ohio, 392U.S. 1, 88 S. Ct. 1868, 21 L. Ed. 889 (1968). Police may not even compel a pedestrian to produce identification without first meeting this standard.

Dispatcher: please respond to a suspicious person

Officer: he will not talk to us, so we are leaving.

A police officer actually following the law? Why would that be surprising? But most officers I know are pretty skillful at getting citizens to volunteer information.

Still, if a person insists, the police are obligated to follow the law. They can follow him as far as his door, of course, which would be easy enough. They can't compell him to talk or stop, but they can observe him and remain on the scene.
 
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The Barbarian

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Remind me again. After review what were the officers charged with?

It's not over. The AG is looking into it.

Nearly one year after police in Aurora, Colorado, killed 23-year-old Elijah McClain, a Black man walking home from a nearby convenience store, Democratic Gov. Jared Polis has ordered his state's attorney general to re-open an investigation into McClain's death. Should the investigation uncover criminality on the part of the officers who killed McClain, Polis said, the state will bring charges.
Colorado is reopening its investigation into the police killing of Elijah McClain

Probably didn't help when a pack of officers got caught clowning around about it at the memorial for the guy they killed.

A police department in Colorado is investigating three officers who were allegedly photographed reenacting the chokehold maneuver cops used on Elijah McClain near a memorial for him, a report said Monday.

The officers allegedly took the photos near where McClain was stopped and detained by Aurora Police soon before his death in 2019, CBS Denver reported, citing sources familiar with the investigation.

The photos of the cops allegedly spread around the Aurora Police Department before the internal investigations department caught wind of them and started a probe.
https://nypost.com/2020/06/30/cops-probed-for-reenacting-elijah-mcclain-chokehold-near-memorial/

They think their blue immunity is invincible.
 
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disciple Clint

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It is perfectly possible to be polite without surrendering your rights. "Sorry, I don't want to talk to you."

End of story. The problem is the delicate egos of some officers who imagine that they are all-powerful and able to bark orders at anyone with impunity. A professional officer would simply acknowledge the citizen's right, and move on.

It is called being secure in who you are and being mature. But there are a minority of officers who just don't have the maturity to deal with the fact. They are the ones who are increasingly doing jail time when their egos overcome their training.



If he could not tell the individual what crime he suspected him of committing, then any attempt to detain that individual was, per the Supreme Court of the United States, unlawful. Just that simple.



Unless the officers told him what crime they suspected him of committing, he was (again, according to the Supreme Court) perfectly within his rights, to just walk away from them.

Don't like it? Amend the Constitution or find another place to live.
You still do not have a law degree and it is obvious. There is no requirement to have a criminal charge in hand when the officer investigates, all that is required is a reasonable suspicion that the person has or might commit a crime. I strongly suggest you read the ACLU article I posted in my last article and stop encouraging people to start out with an attitude about the police when then encounter them. That is exactly how things escalate. If they follow the ACLU recommendations they will be just fine.
 
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disciple Clint

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Sorry, courts have ruled on that, too. It's not illegal to wear a mask in public. Some anti-Klan laws against masks are still on the books here and there, but every time they've been challenged, they've been struck down. The mere wearing of a mask, according to a number of court decisions, cannot be used to infer a crime without other evidence.

Stores and other private businesses can, of course, ban masks if they like. (this might be affected by COVID-19 orders, though)
let me know when you get a law degree because once again you are wrong, the officer had a legal reason to stop the subject.
 
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disciple Clint

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You don't run from police for the same reason you don't run from an aggressive dog; it tends to arouse their predatory instincts and can lead to an attack. If they illegally lay hands on you, it's unwise to resist, because they have the physical power to hurt you and have already demonstrated that they are willing to violate the law to do it.

When I have been stopped at checkpoints by police at night, I turn on my dome light. Because an officer who can see what's in my car, will be less jumpy and thereby less likely to do something stupid or aggressive. I don't have to do it, but it does me no harm, and might just prevent trouble.

But don't confuse courtesy with mandatory behavior. None of us are required by law to cooperate in any way. Nor is the exercise of those rights license for police to become violent or otherwise violate the law.
"None of us are required by law to cooperate in any way." that is the kind of statement that causes youth to think that they should not cooperate with the police, That is exactly the wrong attitude to take when dealing with the police and that attitude escalates it situation to a level that was never required. It is obvious that you equate the police to dogs and that is fine you can deal with the consequences of your decisions but you need to consider that your statements may cause someone to get themselves, arrested, or injured, or even killed depending on how they elect to follow your advice of ""None of us are required by law to cooperate in any way."
stop practicing law and putting other people at risk with your irresponsible statements. If anyone simplly follows the directions of the ACLU when they are stopped by the police they will be safe.
How to reduce risk to yourself
  • Stay calm. Don’t run, resist, or obstruct the officers. Do not lie or give false documents. Keep your hands where the police can see them.
  • How to reduce risk to yourself
    • Stop the car in a safe place as quickly as possible.
    • Turn off the car, turn on the internal light, open the window part way, and place your hands on the wheel. If you’re in the passenger seat, put your hands on the dashboard.
    • Upon request, show police your driver’s license, registration, and proof of insurance.
    • Avoid making sudden movements, and keep your hands where the officer can see them.
  • Stopped by Police
 
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tulc

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From your link:
The truth is that there are situations where people have done everything they could to put an officer at ease, yet still ended up injured or killed.
so in the end it's always going to be up to how the cops are feeling that night as to who lives and who dies if someone is stopped by the police. Which is pretty much what I've been saying from the beginning of this thread. They started the confrontation, they escalated the confrontation, they swarmed him, they choked him, they drugged him, he ended up dead so obviously it's all his fault. :sigh:
tulc(is going to need a lot more coffee) :coffee:
 
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