God gives someone faith. A person with faith is no longer lost. A person without faith is lost. Without faith it is impossible to please him. Are you objecting to God's ability to give his spirit/regeneration to sinners?That scripture says the Gospel is hid to them that are Lost. So did Christ die for them ?
Obviously God didn't give them faith since scripture says they are lost and the gospel is being hid from them 2 Cor 4:3God gives someone faith. A person with faith is no longer lost. A person without faith is lost. Without faith it is impossible to please him. Are you objecting to God's ability to give his spirit/regeneration to sinners?
Are you objecting to God's ability to give his spirit/regeneration to sinners?
That scripture says the Gospel is hid to them that are Lost. So did Christ die for them ?
You said all that and said nothing. Some are lost according to 2 Cor 4:3 did Christ die for them? Yes or no?We are looking back through a different philosophical lens than the people who initially heard the gospel. As socialized by the Western philosophical system we have been raised in, when we first head the gospel, we already wore a philosophical lens with a presumption that "righteousness" must be a universally applied equity in all things.
Their viewpoint, as they first heard the gospel was that righteousness was one nationality or class of people being favored above all others, and for those not in that favored group of people...well, it sucks to be them.
The "novelty" of the Gospel to them was that Christ died for anyone, that is to say, Christ builds His own nation from people out of any and all nations and classifications, which is different from saying Christ died for "everyone."
It may help to understand Romans 1 and 2 Corinthians 4 by looking back at 2 Chronicles 18 (or the synoptic 1 Kings 22). In that passage, we have King Jehosophat who is interested in knowing the word of God, but King Ahab who states up front that he does not want to know the word of God. Rather than hearing from the Michiah, the prophet of God, Ahab prefers to hear from pagan prophets.
Because Ahab does not want to hear the truth, God arranges for Ahab not to hear the truth. Ahab wants to be deceived, so God gives Ahab the deception that Ahab wants.
That is the mechanism for what happens in Romans 1 to those who deny that truth of the existence and essential virtue of God that He makes visible in creation itself. Creation is the prophet of God to everyone:
The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky proclaims the work of His hands.
Day after day they pour out speech; night after night they communicate knowledge.
There are people who heed creation's prophesy, and there are people who resolve themselves to reject creation's prophesy. God treats those who resolve themselves to reject creation's prophesy as He treated Ahab. They want to be deceived, so He gives them the deception that they want.
Did Christ save everyone on earth?You said all that and said nothing. Some are lost according to 2 Cor 4:3 did Christ die for them? Yes or no?
All have sinned. ALL! Are all saved?Obviously God didn't give them faith since scripture says they are lost and the gospel is being hid from them 2 Cor 4:3
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
The word hid is in the perfect tense, denoting a finished completed act ! The Gospel is hid from them once and for all, so they are permanently lost
No, How so when Its plainly stated some are lost 2 Cor 4:3Did Christ save everyone on earth?
Obviously God didn't give them faith since scripture says they are lost and the gospel is being hid from them 2 Cor 4:3All have sinned. ALL! Are all saved?
Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
The gospel cannot be understood when we are lost. That is why God said we must be born again.No, How so when Its plainly stated some are lost 2 Cor 4:3
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
Are you insinuating the lost here are saved ?
Those in 2 Cor 4:3 are lost and the Gospel is hid from them, permanently. Those who God is saving the Gospel isnt hid from them, it reveals' to them the Righteousness of God, to them its the power of God Rom 1:16-17The gospel cannot be understood when we are lost. That is why God said we must be born again.
We need the indwelling Spirit!
1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
We weren't born spiritually when our mothers gave birth to us. When a mother's water breaks, amniotic fluid is released and the natural birth occurs.
John 3
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
God needs Jesus to manifest the mingling together of divinity and humanity as what God intended by man in the first place.Title says it all. Also, just to start off, I am a believer but I always have questions like these pop up in my head when I read the OT. I was reading the Psalms tonight and the Sons of Korah and David both talk about their delight in the Lord for his forgiveness of sins and how He makes those who love Him righteous. If God forgave the sins of those who love Him before sending His Son, and made people righteous, then why did we need Jesus in the first place?
I liked this. Lately I have had a feeling about eternal life.Something to consider as well is that in God we are discussing an omnipresent being. "Omnipresent" doesn't merely mean that God exists in every point in space simultaneously, it also means that He exists in every moment of time simultaneously.
So "God's plan" is not merely something that will happen in "the future." That's our limited viewpoint. But in the omnipresent mind of God, His plan is already accomplished. For Moses, the sacrifices looked to the future. In the mind of God, He was already observing Christ on the cross.
Title says it all. Also, just to start off, I am a believer but I always have questions like these pop up in my head when I read the OT. I was reading the Psalms tonight and the Sons of Korah and David both talk about their delight in the Lord for his forgiveness of sins and how He makes those who love Him righteous. If God forgave the sins of those who love Him before sending His Son, and made people righteous, then why did we need Jesus in the first place?
Read the whole chapter before asking the question.If "all" have sinned, then how can God judge anyone? "All" suggests that God screwed up when he made us.
How does one solve this nasty little problem?
If "all" have sinned, then how can God judge anyone? "All" suggests that God screwed up when he made us.
How does one solve this nasty little problem?
Because the righteousness God is giving them has to come from somewhere. Someone (Christ) earned that righteousness. Then, He gave up that righteousness in exchange for our sin. Then He died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sin. That way, Christ's righteousness (not just anyone's righteousness) could be distributed to the faithful. For a guilty person to be pardoned, an innocent person had to be condemned. That distribution crosses time in both directions.Title says it all. Also, just to start off, I am a believer but I always have questions like these pop up in my head when I read the OT. I was reading the Psalms tonight and the Sons of Korah and David both talk about their delight in the Lord for his forgiveness of sins and how He makes those who love Him righteous. If God forgave the sins of those who love Him before sending His Son, and made people righteous, then why did we need Jesus in the first place?
What would you say about many were "constituted sinners" through Adam's sin?Rom 5:12, 14, 16, 20 NASB95 - 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned ... 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. ... 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Consider:
Premise 1: by one man, sin entered the world and death through sin
Premise 2: death was passed and death reigns - therefore death (not sin) is the transmissible component of the fall
Do you believe that plants die in order for them to have been eaten by the first man and women?Premise 3: God's free gift of righteousness is NOT like the judgement in that, Adam's judgement involved a universal corporate judgement for a single transgression. For that one sin, Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, the ground, the whole of creation was cursed with death (for dust you are and to dust you will return) resulting in a universal judgement for the one, single sin.
I thought this was very thoughtful and required my re-reading and contemplation.Premise 4: the free gift of righteousness covers many transgressions, not the single transgression
Premise 5: to abolish the death judgement of Adam (the transmissible component of his fall from glory), would need only to forgive or vacate the judgement of a single transgression, not many transgressions.
Premise 6: abolishing Adam's death judgement would result in a universal resurrection of anyone who died under that judgement
Premise 7: the purpose of the law was to make sin applicable on an individual level, thereby increasing the number of transgressions
I am cautious not to give "universal resurrection" as a parellel to "universal judgment" to go beyond man.Conclusion: Adam's sin resulted in in a universal death judgement. That universal death judgement will be abolished resulting in a universal resurrection.
It has been out, and I found it helpful, that Christ's righteousness is for Himself.After the universal resurrection, there will be an individual judgement, and it is the individual judgement where the righteousness of Christ applies to the individual. Those who do not have faith in Christ will be resurrected to a resurrection of judgement and a second death.
So when it says "all have sinned" we can think of this as an individual application of the Law of Moses and guilt in contrast to original sin which was a corporate, universal judgement.
Because the righteousness God is giving them has to come from somewhere. Someone (Christ) earned that righteousness. Then, He gave up that righteousness in exchange for our sin. Then He died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sin. That way, Christ's righteousness (not just anyone's righteousness) could be distributed to the faithful. For a guilty person to be pardoned, an innocent person had to be condemned. That distribution crosses time in both directions.
2Co 5:21 NASB95 - 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.Gal 3:13 NASB95 - 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"
I look at this as the same as "imputed." We are "imputed" righteous through Christ and in Adam, many (who had not sinned according to God's command not to eat from the fruit of the tree) were imputed as sinners. When the law came, it demonstrated that was just and applied sin individually, not just corporately.What would you say about many were "constituted sinners" through Adam's sin?
Romans 5;19 - For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous. (RcV)
No. Humans and animals have "the breath of life" and blood (the life is in the blood). The Hebrew term is Nephesh Chaya or "soulish life." The soul is the mind, will, and emotions. Animals have this, but plants do not. Plants are biological machines with no soul. Since plants don't have "life" as the Bible defines it, they cannot "die" as the Bible defines it.Do you believe that plants die in order for them to have been eaten by the first man and women?
In giving Adam herbs and plant to eat before his sin, were those plants kind of seperated from living in order to be eaten?
That could certainly be one of the purposes of The Law. It makes a lot of sense. When it comes to the sin nature, I view death as the cause of the sin nature. Hebrews says:I think the Law entered to make starkly obvious to man that his nature was one of sin.
I can't really say for sure. I think there will be a universal resurrection because the cause of the resurrection is not "individual" because the judgement was universal. It says:I am cautious not to give "universal resurrection" as a parellel to "universal judgment" to go beyond man.
Insects, bacteria, even all vermin and animals of every type I do not see in a universal resurrection
I agree. All we need is a distribution system to distribute the righteousness of one man to many. That is what the Abrahamic covenant is. It is the distribution system for Christ's righteousness.But I found it helpful that it is Christ Himself who is our righteousness.
We who believe have been made the righteousness of God in Him.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?