What Was God's Rationale In This Instance?

cvanwey

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*Asking for justification
*I give one.

You stated "To allow non-married women to marry Israelites and join their people."

This is a 'response'. However, where's the actual justification? (I.E.) How did you actually derrive by this conclusion? You have not furnished any, despite me asking repeatedly.

*Where is the verse?
* I explain the justification

You stated: "God's love does not depend on associating with people's modernist "love"

As stated above, you do not appear to have even attempted to furnish your rationale. Simply posting an unfounded response is of little use :(

*Where is the verse?
*I say that I don't believe in Sola Scriptura

I state: "You don't really have to... However, if there exists no 'reasons' for such very specific commands, in (this) particular event, then all you are presenting is pure opinion, wishful thinking, 'rationalization'/cognitive dissonance, other.... "

*I say that Church has the authority.
*Complains that I gave a justification in the first place.

Then again, why post reply #2?
 
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cvanwey

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*I give a reasoning about the "fate of children and young women"
*Ignores the answer and ask the same questions again.

Please furnish the post which attempts to justify as such? Thus far, I really haven't seen any. Again, just rationalization.

In the mean time, would you care to actually answer the following questions? Such quesitons have been posed organically, after your issued posts.

1. If these Israelites were to have any of these woman, as wives, whom were the spoils of this war, they would also be 'foreign'. Thus, please explain your response in post #28?

2. Children, both boys and girls, can be taught the wanted culture. Rebellion might happen, regardless of any specific race. Thus, I ask again, why kill all male infants/toddlers?

3. This Bible chapter states to 'keep the virgins alive for yourselves'. Thus, I ask, what if the virgins don't want to stay with their captors? Are they free to leave?
 
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cvanwey

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Are you a male? I would say marrying someone and getting support would be better than trying to get work in order to survive especially in those times.

Now we are starting to actually get somewhere... This is the first response where you appear, in attempt, to justify the said command in question. Hence, the reason @Nihilist Virus presented the conclusion that " no Christian, thus far, has 'responded.' " Meaning, attempt to provide God's rationale.

Now, we need to rewind, and explore the request again...

What was God's rationale for telling human's to 'keep the virgins alive for themselves?'

The 'response' you have posed, thus far, seems to suggest that God's rationale/plan, was to spare the virgins, 'because at least that's a little bit better then being..... (rationalization)'?.?.?.

Thus, I now ask you, based upon your response....

Would you actually prefer to marry your captor, whom murdered your prior family right in front of you?

Was this the best plan/rationale God could muster, in this particular case?

Or, maybe, just maybe, as I've ultimately concluded, it seems that maybe such passages in the Bible were not orders from a claimed all mighty supreme and 'loving' being, and instead the writngs of a tribe, whom simply wanted to fullfill their carnal lust?

Or maybe, they were under the impression this was the pronouncement from their believed God, but it actually was not?
 
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RaymondG

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Thank you for the sermon.

No problem....I will be passing around a collection plate shortly.

But this does not address the fundamental question in the slightest...

Yes it does....But the same bible your verses came from states that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the spirit....and it is opposed to it.

Therefore it can only see rape and murder and sin and young and old wombs and contradictions and chaos......and this it should see.

I spoke of spiritual matters......things that can only be known and not understood.

What was God's rationale for commanding soldiers to 'keep alive the virgins for themselves?'

Because the seed of Christ can be born only in a virgin Womb.

You should not understand this....see above.

Just know that these things are just as crazy as the thought of making metal fly through the sky like birds(before the invention of planes)....and should be dismissed just as vigorously as those thoughts were....before they were realized.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Are you a male?

Relevance?

I would say marrying someone and getting support would be better than trying to get work in order to survive especially in those times.

But you wouldn't just be marrying "someone." You'd be marrying one of the men who slaughtered your family and village. How are you not seeing this?
 
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cvanwey

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Yes it does....But the same bible your verses came from states that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the spirit....and it is opposed to it.

Are you essentially saying that whatever humans deem from the Bible, as 'good', means we humans then understand such Word correctly. And the things in which humans deem as 'bad', from the Bible, we simply don't understand correctly? Please elaborate?


Therefore it can only see rape and murder and sin and young and old wombs and contradictions and chaos......and this it should see.

So are you saying that, sometimes, God's plan is to promote rape (i.e.) in this particular battle?

I spoke of spiritual matters......things that can only be known and not understood.

Are you saying humans are incapable of proper interpretation? (i.e.) If we perceive an event as 'bad', then that must mean we are interpreting incorrectly?

If this is the case, then how are humans to know that the Bible is all 'good'?


Because the seed of Christ can be born only in a virgin Womb.

Where did you conclude upon this answer exactly?

You should not understand this....see above.

But somehow, you do?

Again, please explain how you came up with this answer? (i.e.)
"Because the seed of Christ can be born only in a virgin Womb."

Just know that these things are just as crazy as the thought of making metal fly through the sky like birds(before the invention of planes)....and should be dismissed just as vigorously as those thoughts were....before they were realized.

If human minds are fallible, how do you know it's not (you) whom is mistaken, and it is instead (my) assessment, which is correct?.?.?.?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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No problem....I will be passing around a collection plate shortly.



Yes it does....But the same bible your verses came from states that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the spirit....and it is opposed to it.

Therefore it can only see rape and murder and sin and young and old wombs and contradictions and chaos......and this it should see.

I spoke of spiritual matters......things that can only be known and not understood.

How does adding a spiritual element to this passage negate the fact that home invasion, robbery, mass murder, and mass rape occurred?

Because the seed of Christ can be born only in a virgin Womb.

This is one of the most bizarre answers I've seen on this site for a while.

You should not understand this....see above.

Or maybe you're going off the rails in your interpretation of scripture. I'd find that more likely.

Just know that these things are just as crazy as the thought of making metal fly through the sky like birds(before the invention of planes)....and should be dismissed just as vigorously as those thoughts were....before they were realized.

You're neither right nor Wright. :oldthumbsup:
 
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RaymondG

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Are you essentially saying that whatever humans deem from the Bible, as 'good', means we humans then understand such Word correctly. And the things in which humans deem as 'bad', from the Bible, we simply don't understand correctly? Please elaborate?
Not quite......What we deem good or bad is equally incorrect. Only those who eat the fruit from the forbidden tree, does so. And this is forbidden. Truth only comes from the one who is the Truth and the life......

So are you saying that, sometimes, God's plan is to promote rape (i.e.) in this particular battle?
Im saying that our minds may see that....but it is not the truth. The spirit behind the words is what leads to life. analyzing the words profit little.

Are you saying humans are incapable of proper interpretation? (i.e.) If we perceive an event as 'bad', then that must mean we are interpreting incorrectly?

If this is the case, then how are humans to know that the Bible is all 'good'?

I am incapable of proper interpretation of the words. Therefore I must sit with an open mind free of the seeds of men....like a young virgin with a womb untouched.... To receive wisdom from the One who giveth it freely to all who asks....and therefore women who lay with men shall perish.

Where did you conclude upon this answer exactly?

Exactly....doesnt seem rational and the mind could not have thought of it..... Yet even when spoken, it becomes false after the mind starts to filter it....through it's many filters

But somehow, you do?

Again, please explain how you came up with this answer? (i.e.)
"Because the seed of Christ can be born only in a virgin Womb."

This goes beyond the scope of the thread...but when you have killed all those who slept with men...and took for yourself one with a virgin womb ready to receive new seed....we can talk about it.

If even one remain alive...introducing any new seed would be pointless.

If human minds are fallible, how do you know it's not (you) whom is mistaken, and it is instead (my) assessment, which is correct?.?.?.?
I did not say you were wrong and i was right. I only ask that we both become open to the author and finisher of our faith....so that He can begin a work in us. But we still yet have to remove all else and receive a young virgin to ourselves.
 
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RaymondG

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How does adding a spiritual element to this passage negate the fact that home invasion, robbery, mass murder, and mass rape occurred?
Can you prove to me that these events happened literally? If not, whose to say that it is not only spiritual?

Im not saying that it did or didnt happen....but to present the argument, we have to be able to prove it happened right?

And yes, we just witnessed a Christian asking an Atheist to prove something in the Bible happened.

After some time you may be changing your religion to mine.

This is one of the most bizarre answers I've seen on this site for a while.

Thanks, I am a peculiar people...on a path that few seek and even fewer find. In Fact, I would be alarmed if you had said I made perfect sense and my words were easy to understand..... Cause I dont even understand myself sometimes....

Or maybe you're going off the rails in your interpretation of scripture. I'd find that more likely.
I think it wise for you to feel that.....it promotes self discovery...... For it is your own experience that will save you, not your belief in mine....

You're neither right nor Wright. :oldthumbsup:
Excellent play on words. Thanks for the conversation.
 
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Not David

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But you wouldn't just be marrying "someone." You'd be marrying one of the men who slaughtered your family and village. How are you not seeing this?
I would be alive and with someone who would take care of me.
 
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cloudyday2

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I would be alive and with someone who would take care of me.
In Numbers 31:18 RSV Moses instruct the Israelites "But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES". That doesn't necessarily mean these young captive girls were made wives. I suspect they were made slaves (such as Sara's slave Hagar in the story of Abraham). ... I suppose wife versus slave is not a huge distinction, but wives probably had more legal rights.

I still don't get the gender distinction. Young boys would be just as impressionable as young girls for assimilation. The only advantage of the girls would be to satisfy the sexual needs of the male warriors. Although I suppose female slaves are less likely to revolt than male slaves, so that is a possibility too.
 
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In Numbers 31:18 RSV Moses instruct the Israelites "But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES". That doesn't necessarily mean these young captive girls were made wives. I suspect they were made slaves (such as Sara's slave Hagar in the story of Abraham). ... I suppose wife versus slave is not a huge distinction, but wives probably had more legal rights.

I still don't get the gender distinction. Young boys would be just as impressionable as young girls for assimilation. The only advantage of the girls would be to satisfy the sexual needs of the male warriors. Although I suppose female slaves are less likely to revolt than male slaves, so that is a possibility too.
I might go and check what's the Church explanation about it. I might be relying too much in a political and social perspective.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I would be alive and with someone who would take care of me.
You could "give it up" to the person who murdured your family? Sexual slavery! Serve the guy, you get to eat. Yeah, maybe I'd rather die. Doesn't sound like that was an option.
 
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You could "give it up" to the person who murdured your family? Sexual slavery! Serve the guy, you get to eat. Yeah, maybe I'd rather die. Doesn't sound like that was an option.
Die? Don't you believe there is nothing after death?
 
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cvanwey

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Not quite......What we deem good or bad is equally incorrect. Only those who eat the fruit from the forbidden tree, does so. And this is forbidden. Truth only comes from the one who is the Truth and the life......

According to the (Bible), the entire human race ate from this forbidden fruit. This includes you. Thus, I again ask, under this specific rationale, how are you able to discern that the God (you) believe in, is THE Truth? Because if you remove all your filters, you really have no basis or starting point seemingly...

Im saying that our minds may see that....but it is not the truth. The spirit behind the words is what leads to life. analyzing the words profit little.

What is the point of reading Scripture? This particular verse(s) explains an event. This event explains God telling a certain people to take virgins, (i.e.) Numbers 31:17-18. Is this 'the Truth' in this generic interpretation thus far? If not, where am I failing? We can then proceed forward as necessary to come to the rationale behind this story. And if you are saying we cannot, then I again ask, what is the point of reading Scripture?

I am incapable of proper interpretation of the words. Therefore I must sit with an open mind free of the seeds of men....like a young virgin with a womb untouched.... To receive wisdom from the One who giveth it freely to all who asks....and therefore women who lay with men shall perish.

If you are incapable, then how were you able to discern that you
'must sit with an open mind free of the seeds of men.'?

Exactly....doesnt seem rational and the mind could not have thought of it..... Yet even when spoken, it becomes false after the mind starts to filter it....through it's many filters

Again, the Bible states that all humans have eaten from this forbidden fruit. Thus, (you) would be in the same boat as everyone else.

I then ask... How would God expect for anyone to discern what is true? If all human minds are corrupted, seems as though no one would be able to distinguish truth from fiction, ever. We then use our flawed human minds to discern a conclusion.


This goes beyond the scope of the thread...but when you have killed all those who slept with men...and took for yourself one with a virgin womb ready to receive new seed....we can talk about it.

Quite the contrary, in my estimation. Seems as though you are somehow purvey to 'knowledge' I have yet to obtain.?.?.?

Seems as though you are saying that I must 'remove all filters' and/or go back to my 'naive childlike ways' to possibly receive Truth?

Going back to the OP, I again ask... What was God's rationale? Thus far, it seems as though you are implying that all taken virgins are pure to receive the truth. Is this correct?


I did not say you were wrong and i was right. I only ask that we both become open to the author and finisher of our faith....so that He can begin a work in us. But we still yet have to remove all else and receive a young virgin to ourselves.

Let me try to get this straight... It is only after we remove all filters, will Truth then begin to be revealed?

I ask you now, is there a way to interpret this passage incorrectly? Meaning, I read in Numbers 31:17-18, where it states to 'keep alive the virgins for yourselves.' To me, this means to destroy all humans from this opposing side, but keep the virgins as your own possession(s).


If it merely stated to keep alive virgins, excluding the caveat about having them for yourselves, then maybe you have some sort of a case. However, it also include 'yourselves.' This would imply some type of ownership to the humans, whom they apparently captured.

We also know, from history, that most wanted virgins when choosing a partner, and not for teaching, if you know what I mean.

Going back to the sheer basics of the story line, I would assume that one tribe conquered another tribe, right? We know this because it is what the Scriptures say.

So, do we AT LEAST agree that a battle took place in the past, and a race was exterminated (excluding virgins)?

If so, I ask... How would you know this without the verses in this chapter? I then ask, why is this True, but I somehow do not understand the other verses?

In my estimation, it seems pretty straight forward and simple...

(i.e.) Party A destroyed party B. Can we at least agree up to this point? If so, why can't we use the same reasoning to deduce the rest of the claims? I'm sensing possible cognitive dissonance...

Thank you thus far...
 
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Tinker Grey

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Die? Don't you believe there is nothing after death?
To say I'd rather die doesn't imply I wouldn't try other options first. For example, I'd probably attempt to escape. But upon failure after failure after failure after rape after rape after rape ... yeah, death is better than unending despair .
 
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Not David

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To say I'd rather die doesn't imply I wouldn't try other options first. For example, I'd probably attempt to escape. But upon failure after failure after failure after rape after rape after rape ... yeah, death is better than unending despair .
Do you have any example of women trying to escape during those conquests? It seems more like they prefer to stay with them.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Do you have any example of women trying to escape during those conquests? It seems more like they prefer to stay with them.
Well, I already said that history is written by the victors. Why would I imagine that the authors would write about these girls attempting escapes.

I wasn't asserting what the women did. I was explaining that "someone to take of me" doesn't seem like a human response to the horror of the murder of my family and the sex-for-food scenario.
 
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cvanwey

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Do you have any example of women trying to escape during those conquests? It seems more like they prefer to stay with them.

Common sense...

Young women's entire families are desecrated. Everything and everyone they've ever known; gone, killed, exterminated.

As @Tinker Grey stated, they may feel helpless. And using any 'basic' form of hermeneutics, wouldn't it be safe to say that the passage, which mentions 'virgins', is not purely or exclusively for teaching purposes?

And yes, you have to 'read between the lines' a tiny bit I guess. But again, using basic common sense, is it really that far fetched to intelligently conclude that many were raped, held against their will, and forced into marriage? I doubt it... The Bible does not place the man and the woman on a level playing field. If you want examples, I can provide them.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Can you prove to me that these events happened literally? If not, whose to say that it is not only spiritual?

Im not saying that it did or didnt happen....but to present the argument, we have to be able to prove it happened right?

And yes, we just witnessed a Christian asking an Atheist to prove something in the Bible happened.

After some time you may be changing your religion to mine.

Lol. Yes, that's exactly how it works. You've cracked the code.

Thanks, I am a peculiar people...on a path that few seek and even fewer find. In Fact, I would be alarmed if you had said I made perfect sense and my words were easy to understand..... Cause I dont even understand myself sometimes....

Uh...

I think it wise for you to feel that.....it promotes self discovery...... For it is your own experience that will save you, not your belief in mine....


Excellent play on words. Thanks for the conversation.

OK! Have fun.
 
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