What Was God's Rationale In This Instance?

[cvanwey]

As a reminder:

"A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith."

What I'm doing here is in direct relation to the topics in which I bring forth. And now to address your concerns.

cvanwey, a word of advice.

Great, I love advice, when it appears useful. And I'm sure you are the appointed spokesperson for all Christians on here, whom address this forum, right?

I know you enjoy trolling this website looking for ways to disprove Christianity,

You might want to brush up on the definition of 'internet trolling' You will find this topic brings forth legitimate inquiry. As the last posting to @2PhiloVoid demonstrates.... If you care to address them, great. If not, then please allow (me) to now also assume your 'purpose' here in this thread. It instead appears that many of such points suggest objects of discomfort for you. Maybe even enough so, to now attempt smearing my character, to instead distract from the points.?.?. I'm sorry if such objective observations make you uncomfortable. Again, please look at the very top of this response, in red.

'If you can't stand the heat', well, you know the rest...

but I would suggest you instead try focusing on the person of Christ, instead of OT stories of God sometimes intervening and sometimes not intervening in the tribal life of a culture that we can't relate to, and don't understand half the time.

I tried, for decades. Too many discrepancies howver. I now voice those discrepancies here for continued believers, whom believe He IS the Messiah, to attempt and reconcile them as such in a way that 'makes sense'.

You aren't going to convert a single Christian with this tactic,

Who says I'm trying to win converts?

nor will you ever be satisfied with the answers that are provided to you.

I disagree (sometimes), see below....

You should know that Christianity stands or falls primarily upon the person of Christ.

In accordance with Sal/Paul, I could not agree more, as to the claim

I personally don't know why God did a lot of the things He did in the OT. However, like most all Christians here, I'm OK not knowing why God did a lot of the things He did in the OT. You really are wasting your time.

You see, this answer IS satisfying.

For which I now respond, IS there a logical reason out there, for the 'things' in which you don't understand? Meaning, just because (you) don't understand, is there other humans which may actually understand, where you don't? And if so, do you simply NOT accept them, if you don't like the result?

 

[SPF]

For which I now respond, IS there a logical reason out there, for the 'things' in which you don't understand? Meaning, just because (you) don't understand, is there other humans which may actually understand, where you don't? And if so, do you simply NOT accept them, if you don't like the result?

Well, I don't believe God is illogical, so I'm sure there certainly is a "logical" answer for why God interacted and intervened in human history in the way He did at the times He did. Whether or not there is a logical answer of course is different than whether or not we will ever be able to understand or know what it is.

Whenever I feel like really digging into the OT, I give good ole Dr.Heiser a listen to. Though I tend to speed it up to 1.5x speed so it's bearable.

 

[Sanoy]

Whenever I feel like really digging into the OT, I give good ole Dr.Heiser a listen to.

Hear, Hear! NBP fan here. Which reminds me...I'm a week behind and need to catch up.

 

[cvanwey]

Well, I don't believe God is illogical, so I'm sure there certainly is a "logical" answer for why God interacted and intervened in human history in the way He did at the times He did. Whether or not there is a logical answer of course is different than whether or not we will ever be able to understand or know what it is.

Yea well, I'm more-so addressing the topics of the apparent 'illogical'. And if, 'you are sure there is a logical answer', let's see if we may find them.

Though I agree that the Bible cannot provide every answer to every hypothetical question.... I feel I'm raising concerns which instead address more general premises. i.e. In this case, that it appears more highly likely, that such a claimed God did not have any 'hand' in this written about event (the entire chapter). And that it seems more highly likely, based upon the observations - (yet to be addressed by @2PhiloVoid ), that humans wrote of their own 'justification', and instead passed them off as 'God pronouncements.' And that if this IS the case, what else did, not only Moses pass off as a 'pronouncement by God', but other stories, as written? Or even further still, when people say God speaks to them today.... How do we distinguish what is legit, and what is not....? Hence, the whole 'can of worms' thing this topic thread seems to invite...

Regardless if a God(s) exist, is it instead (possible) that some, or all of the writings are not actually from the source in which it claims to be? Yes or no?

If such events were commanded by God, in which we now find questionable, the believer must still reconcile that God at least condones such types of actions; even if it only is for 'specific cases and situations'.

 

[SPF]

Yea well, I'm more-so addressing the topics of the apparent 'illogical'. And if, 'you are sure there is a logical answer', let's see if we may find them.

Well, like I said, while I'm sure there are logical answers, I'm not certain that I can know what they are. So you'll not get very far in finding the answers you want with me as your companion. And given the amount of time you invest on this forum instead of actually reading books by credible, educated theologians, I can't help but think you aren't honestly seeking.

I think if you could have an honest moment with yourself, you aren't really here seeking answers, you're moreso here pridefully touting your opinions disguised as honest seeking. If you actually are an honest seeker, you're not a smart one as you would do a lot better reading a book by a credible theologian who specializes in this topic.... ie - Dr. Michael Heiser.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yea well, I'm more-so addressing the topics of the apparent 'illogical'. And if, 'you are sure there is a logical answer', let's see if we may find them.

Though I agree that the Bible cannot provide every answer to every hypothetical question.... I feel I'm raising concerns which instead address more general premises. i.e. In this case, that it appears more highly likely, that such a claimed God did not have any 'hand' in this written about event (the entire chapter). And that it seems more highly likely, based upon the observations - (yet to be addressed by @2PhiloVoid ), that humans wrote of their own 'justification', and instead passed them off as 'God pronouncements.' And that if this IS the case, what else did, not only Moses pass off as a 'pronouncement by God', but other stories, as written? Or even further still, when people say God speaks to them today.... How do we distinguish what is legit, and what is not....? Hence, the whole 'can of worms' thing this topic thread seems to invite...

Regardless if a God(s) exist, is it instead (possible) that some, or all of the writings are not actually from the source in which it claims to be? Yes or no?

If such events were commanded by God, in which we now find questionable, the believer must still reconcile that God at least condones such types of actions; even if it only is for 'specific cases and situations'.

cvanwey, I must say, I've never been under the impression that the Bible must be logical in the philosophical sense of the word; this is ancient JEWISH literature we're trying to dust off here. So, please forgive me, but it seems kind of strange that you'd insist upon imposing what is more or less a Greek way of assessing the nature of ancient Jewish thought. To some extent, even though I'm not a big fan of Tertullian, I think he did have a partially applicable point to make when he asked, "What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem?," however minor of a point it may seem to be to our overall act of assessing the contents of the Bible on this side of 2,000 years post-Jesus.

In having read the Jewish literature that I have, some from some notable Jewish folks and some from those who are not Jewish but intently interested in ancient Jewish folk ways of thought, I'm going to have to say that without any study of what it is to be "anciently" Jewish and/or Israelite even further back, then we aren't going to make much headway when interpreting the Bible or coming to value it on its own terms. This is especially the case if we keep bludgeoning it to literary oblivion with our expectation that to be inspired by God must mean something like "comporting logically with every single thing that a 21st century modern mind could possibly bring up."

Yeah, I'm thinking something will be missing without at least some healthy amount of Jewish scholarship in the mix with the Greek-like intuitions we all seem to be carrying around these days.

 

[cvanwey]

Well, like I said, while I'm sure there are logical answers, I'm not certain that I can know what they are. So you'll not get very far in finding the answers you want with me as your companion.

Then how do you even know you are correct about your beliefs here at all? We can have mere faith/trust in anything.

I then ask you, playing 'devil's advocate' here... Can you at least empathize with me, in the notion that you seem to think you know Christianity is true, but when confronted with 'certain' topics, such as the points conveyed to @2PhiloVoid for instance, all of a sudden, 'you can't comment' as to why I'm mistaken? You will need to address post #389 here...

Can you at least reconcile the apparent oddity of this observation?

And given the amount of time you invest on this forum instead of actually reading books by credible, educated theologians,

Please tell me what I have, and have not read, just for starters?

In which I will then pose a follow up / return question. Say someone tells you Hinduism is the real deal. You don't believe so. The other person says, 'well, how many scholarly works have you actually read from Hindus?'

Another question... Give me the correct 'book list' to reconsider my skepticism?

You follow?

I can't help but think you aren't honestly seeking.

I can't help but to suggest, yet again to you, why are you hanging out in this forum thread, if you apparently understand the forum concept of this arena, (i.e.) the 'apologetics forum.'

I think if you could have an honest moment with yourself, you aren't really here seeking answers, you're moreso here pridefully touting your opinions disguised as honest seeking. If you actually are an honest seeker, you're not a smart one as you would do a lot better reading a book by a credible theologian who specializes in this topic.... ie - Dr. Michael Heiser.

Please give me His best line, passage, or other... from this Dr.? Can I then, in return, furnish you with the 'appropriate' atheist 'book list' to read, before you have so hastily become a believer without giving doubt a fair shake?

 

[SPF]

Then how do you even know you are correct about your beliefs here at all? We can have mere faith/trust in anything.

Oh, I certainly don't "know" in the technical sense of the word. If a person could have knowledge that Christianity was true, then it wouldn't require faith. But that's using really technical definitions of words. Technically (last time I'll use that word), I only know that I exist. But there is a real difference between reasonable faith and blind faith. In fact, might I recommend you wander on over to Dr. William Lane Craig's, Reasonable Faith website? They have a forum there that you might actually find more mentally stimulating than this one.

Can you at least empathize with me, in the notion that you seem to think you know Christianity is true, but when confronted with 'certain' topics, such as the points conveyed to @2PhiloVoid for instance, all of a sudden, 'you can't comment' as to why I'm mistaken?

Sure, I can empathize with that! As good ole westerners, we want everything laid out to us on an excel spreadsheet. But if Christians can't even agree over secondary theological issues, the chances of you getting your answers are probably pretty slim. I'm sure that can be maddeningly frustrating.

But God, I think, is less interested in making sure we understand His every thought, understand His motive for every action, grasp the depths of His choices in how He intervenes and works with people, and is instead more interested in us coming to recognize that we need forgiveness for the wrong things we do and that this forgiveness can only come through the atoning work of Jesus.

Please tell me what I have, and have not read, just for starters?

Well, obviously I do not know what you have and have not read. But what I do know is that given the volume of posts you make and the length at which each is written that you spend a lot of time on this forum. I also know there are only 24 hours in a day, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are a productive member of society. Therefore, as someone who doesn't have all the time in the world, for an honest seeker, I would suggest you aren't spending the time you have wisely if you're actually thinking you can find the answers you are looking for here.

I think it's much more likely you're just looking to validate your skepticism here.

Another question... Give me the correct 'book list' to reconsider my skepticism?

Reasonable Faith: William Lane Craig
The God Who is There: Francis Schaeffer
Unshakable Foundations: Norman Geisler

I can't help but to suggest, yet again to you, why are you hanging out in this forum thread, if you apparently understand the forum concept of this arena, (i.e.) the 'apologetics forum.'

I occasionally come to this particular section to see if there are honest seekers that I can provide helpful responses to. But, sometimes I find myself getting temporarily sucked into threads like this that are more than likely a waste of time in the end.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You aren't going to convert a single Christian with this tactic, nor will you ever be satisfied with the answers that are provided to you.

Actually, there are quite a number of people who say atheist arguments prompted their deconversion. I've seen some of them say so on this very website.
You keep on, @cvanwey . It may be that this very thread will cause someone to stop and think and maybe have a new realisation.

 

[cvanwey]

cvanwey, I must say, I've never been under the impression that the Bible must be logical in the philosophical sense of the word; this is ancient JEWISH literature we're trying to dust off here. So, please forgive me, but it seems kind of strange that you'd insist upon imposing what is more or less a Greek way of assessing the nature of ancient Jewish thought. To some extent, even though I'm not a big fan of Tertullian, I think he did have a partially applicable point to make when he asked, "What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem?," however minor of a point it may seem to be to our overall act of assessing the contents of the Bible on this side of 2,000 years post-Jesus.

In having read the Jewish literature that I have, some from some notable Jewish folks and some from those who are not Jewish but intently interested in ancient Jewish folk ways of thought, I'm going to have to say that without any study of what it is to be "anciently" Jewish and/or Israelite even further back, then we aren't going to make much headway when interpreting the Bible or coming to value it on its own terms. This is especially the case if we keep bludgeoning it to literary oblivion with our expectation that to be inspired by God must mean something like "comporting logically with every single thing that a 21st century modern mind could possibly bring up."

Yeah, I'm thinking something will be missing without at least some healthy amount of Jewish scholarship in the mix with the Greek-like intuitions we all seem to be carrying around these days.

Thanks?

BTW, you can address post #399 any time. It's just for you....

***************

Now, to address (your) concerns, yet again, without the return in the favor...

Regardless of any 'retired language', which then begs such questions ---

1. Why does God convey such messages, in which He also intends for future generations to understand, (i.e) our generation and beyond, while knowing humans may not now interpret correctly?

2. Are you saying that unless anyone develops a 'sound' understanding to a very specific 'language' string, we simply cannot truly understand?

This time, I will answer my own questions. Because quite frankly, waiting for (your) answers usually posits two general conclusions...

a. You don't, or..
b. You spin off

(My answer to #1) - Seems odd that God would invoke events in history, for humans to convey to their off spring, in both oral tradition and in writings, knowing full well, that the people of much latter generations will never again know WHY God did what He did.

I guess all later translations of the Bible, you know, the versions we read, are all just doing it 'wrong.' Maybe all these translators require the expertise of your direct wisdom. You know, to show them why they have interpreted such writings incorrectly.

Because again, I'm not quibbling over minutiae here....

(My answer to #2) - For my questions posed to you in post #399, it does not really even matter of your concerns. These are general concepts which transcend language nuance.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@2PhiloVoid As I've stated multiple times in this thread... Even if such a claimed God exists, it would appear that God does not have His hand in this Chapter. I will again, provide the reasons, nothing of which has to really do with some 'perpetual box'. It is instead addressing these verses, from an unbiased perspective. Meaning, I don't necessarily carry any a priori, but do notice some points which appear to demonstrate such 'short comings' from any claimed 'divine entity.'

1. God sometimes tells humans to kill other humans in the Bible. Well, then how do humans discern which claimed God commands are legit, verses delusion? Who's to say some God commands still are not happening today, with orders to do something the human may not 'want' to do? I'll answer preemptively... It would appear we can't.

2. God intervenes to issue commands, as well as to also apparently help with correctly identifying all the female virgins. But watches, with no aid/intervention, as humans kill other humans in this very same scenario. Bazaar. God intervenes with orders, and identifying virgins, but let's the humans do the actual 'dirty work' themselves. Why?

3. Such claimed 'God instruction' allows for males to take females, after 30 days, as their 'wives'. This looks to be a 'loophole', for the humans whom invented this/these 'law', quite frankly. -- Deeming such future actions with their brides now within the 'law.' Period... Remember, God has His hands directly in these 'laws' apparently. Regardless of how terms and definitions change over time, it appears plain to conclude that God condones/allows/sanctions some form of 'rape.'

4. God wants the soldiers to spare the female virgins. Does God know how basic biology works? The Midianite bloodline would continue just the same, only absent in 'name.'

5. What rationale is there to spare untouched women, above and beyond young untouched boys? Their only difference, above and beyond the young boys, is their genitalia. Since the Midianite bloodline would continue, if they pro-create there-after, what other distinction is served between the women and the men who were spared?

As you can see, I'm not really addressing the 'moral' implications. Just that we appear to have claimed events, which contradict logic and reason.

Is it no wonder I'm a skeptic to this claimed 'faith'?

 

[cvanwey]

Well, since you are obviously going to avoid all legitimate inquiry, can you at least answer me this...?

We both know what I asked of you in prayer, on my behalf. Assuming you are doing as such, as I would assume you are an honest person... If I continue to not receive any such contact from God, and then die, did your prayers do any good?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, since you are obviously going to avoid all legitimate inquiry, can you at least answer me this...?

We both know what I asked of you in prayer, on my behalf. Assuming you are doing as such, as I would assume you are an honest person... If I continue to not receive any such contact from God, and then die, did your prayers do any good?

Since, in a way, you're taking this right back to the beginning of your first entry into CF and to our brief discussion we had about the nature of prayer (which you promptly ignored), I feel at liberty to say that "I don't know," particularly if what you have in mind isn't what either I or God has in mind in how you could be addressed, helped, educated or dealt with in the long term of things.

In the last year and a half, I haven't changed my stance on the nature of prayer, and you apparently haven't changed your stance on anything since you started here.

But yes, I will continue to pray for you.

 

[cvanwey]

Since, in a way, you're taking this right back to the beginning of your first entry into CF and to our brief discussion we had about the nature of prayer (which you promptly ignored), I feel at liberty to say that "I don't know," particularly if what you have in mind isn't what either I or God has in mind in how you could be addressed, helped, educated or dealt with in the long term of things.

In the last year and a half, I haven't changed my stance on the nature of prayer, and you apparently haven't changed your stance on anything since you started here.

@2PhiloVoid

I really have to ask you first... What is the reason you will not address post 399? You are obviously following what I write, intently. And I appreciate that.... However, when you change the topic, over and over, can you not understand the frustration?

I understand all topics threads, once more than 5 responses come into play, can change direction. Heck, I've been guilty of that myself. We tend to chase all sorts of side 'arguments.'

But in this case, I keep trying to redirect you back to the OP topic, in THIS thread, and I can't help but to surmise that maybe you feel I may have stumbled onto some 'conclusions', that if true, cause discomfort.

Am I close?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@2PhiloVoid

I really have to ask you first... What is the reason you will not address post 399? You are obviously following what I write, intently. And I appreciate that.... However, when you change the topic, over and over, can you not understand the frustration?

I understand all topics threads, once more than 5 responses come into play, can change direction. Heck, I've been guilty of that myself. We tend to chase all sorts of side 'arguments.'

But in this case, I keep trying to redirect you back to the OP topic, in THIS thread, and I can't help but to surmise that maybe you feel I may have stumbled onto some 'conclusions', that if true, cause discomfort.

Am I close?

No, I just don't feel like continuing on. It's not like it's my job to answer every question you ask just because you're here and you ask---1 Peter 3:15 notwithstanding. I do have some reasons for this, and if you feel like I'm "picking on you," just know that I haven't talked as much to some of the others here as much in total such as @BigV, @InterestedAtheist, and a few others. I mean for whatever it's worth, apparently in the last year and a half nothing I've said nor much that any other Christian said has been anything you've found helpful, so why would I choose to waste your and my time further? No, it's probably best to just pray for you, as I may have to just end up doing for some of the other apparent poor souls around here who just don't feel able to "believe." I don't know? What should I think about all of this? Does everyone around here have some kind of unmedicated O.C.D. or something that compels them to just keep asking questions ad infinitum? Again, I don't know. I'm not living your lives or thinking your thoughts. Moreover, from my own studies, and as I've emphasize more than I can remember, the Bible itself doesn't provide info on all things we could possible dream up a question over..........................

So? I'll pray.

 

[cvanwey]

No, I just don't feel like continuing on. It's not like it's my job to answer every question you ask just because you're here and you ask---1 Peter 3:15 notwithstanding. I do have some reasons for this, and if you feel like I'm "picking on you," just know that I haven't talked as much to some of the others here as much in total such as @BigV, @InterestedAtheist, and a few others. I mean for whatever it's worth, apparently in the last year and a half nothing I've said nor much that any other Christian said has been anything you've found helpful, so why would I choose to waste your and my time further? No, it's probably best to just pray for you, as I may have to just end up doing for some of the other apparent poor souls around here who just don't feel able to "believe." I don't know? What should I think about all of this? Does everyone around here have some kind of unmedicated O.C.D. or something that compels them to just keep asking questions ad infinitum? Again, I don't know. I'm not living your lives or thinking your thoughts. Moreover, from my own studies, and as I've emphasize more than I can remember, the Bible itself doesn't provide info on all things we could possible dream up a question over..........................

So? I'll pray.

Well, do KNOW that I have learned a lot, believe it or not. From you, and many others here (both believers and unbelievers alike). And I do thank you for that, as well.... For whatever that's worth....

Getting to, what I feel, may be the (true) underlying points...

1. Is there a question(s), in the past or present, you feel I have not addressed to your satisfaction? If so, please point it/them out, and I will do my earnest in addressing, either here or in PM.

2. Many of us feel we have to perpetually repeat ourselves, more likely because many, whom respond, don't answer the actual question(s) asked, or the comment(s) made. This goes all directions it seems. Sometimes maybe it has to do with the way the question is worded, which then becomes the 'asker's' fault

3. Regardless of one being a believer, unbeliever, other, I try my best to address the points, w/o the bias of their a priori beliefs. But it can be hard, not to label someone preemptively, I must admit.

5. In one of my other threads @SPF and I came to an understanding, after initial disagreements.

6. Just know, that I've given this entire topic a great deal of thought, for whatever that's worth... And I hope it's no secret that the topics I've posted here, Ive already 'answered' or came to a conclusion, in my own head. Hence, the frustration from your end, when you do not feel you are making any headway I bring them here to test their 'veracity.'

HOWEVER, though many times I do not change my final 'conclusion' about such topics as 'slavery', women's inequality, belief not encompassing morality, distinguishing contact from god verses not, prayer, 'evidence' for a resurrection, God changing His mind, or the many others and have, and may later post, please know that I'm placing these topics here to see if they hold water. If not, I will chuck them.

Just know that I"m not looking for you, or anyone else to say... "Dang, yer right. This Christianity stuff is nonsense.' NO. Not at all.

I view this forum arena as a place to air my grievances. I'm surrounded with believers. I hear it every day. Heck, my wife is a believer. I use this arena, as a platform, or therapeutic refuge. That's all. The fact that you engage as much as you do, with me, is QUITE FLATTERING. And I appreciate that.

Please do not think, for a second, that I don't appreciate all the comments made here.

And yes, maybe I do come off smug, 'all-knowing', etc... But please trust, that I may be 'projecting'.

I hope this provides a slightly new direction, for the ones whom continue to address anything I write. And again, I appreciate it.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I mean for whatever it's worth, apparently in the last year and a half nothing I've said nor much that any other Christian said has been anything you've found helpful, so why would I choose to waste your and my time further?

Philo, you underestimate yourself. The things that you and other Christians say have been of great use.