What types of externalities invalidate the claim of "peaceful" in the context of method of protest?

[public hermit]

But when voicing grievances morphs into "here's this issue that we're upset about, and there will be consequences if you don't join our side", is it still purely just protesting?

I'm inclined to draw the line between coercion and persuasion as to what qualifies as a peaceable assembly. That being said, one cannot expect the masses to just fall in line with whatever the powers that be feel is reasonable. If people feel they have a reasonable grievance, the best plan is to give them the best possible platform and don't try to squelch it. In the spirit of Gamaliel, if it be of democracy, than it will show itself to be so.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Still thinking about this specific of this issue, and I dont think I really know where the American people come down on the various aspects of this question..

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/majority-americans-support-deporting-immigrants-who-are-us-illegally

https://www.axios.com/2025/01/19/poll-americans-mass-deportation-policies-trump

At least on the topic of deportations, it would appear that people agree on the "what", but disagree on the "how" -- but when the probing questions are asked, it's not actually the "how", but the "who"


The reason why the ICE sweeps/raids are getting more backlash now, is because it's Trump that's doing it, when Obama was using that approach (and deporting 3-4 times as many people in the process), the backlash against it was a little more "toned down".

When the narrative is put out into the ethos that "Trump is the most racist president is US history", there will be a subset of the population that attribute everything he does to racist motives.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

This is LA. If you've driven LA, you'd know better than to say that.

I’m well aware. That’s a problem inherent in car centric design though. You’d have the same problem if there was a protest blocking the road or just a bad car accident from a drunk driver.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I’m well aware. That’s a problem inherent in car centric design though. You’d have the same problem if there was a protest blocking the road or just a bad car accident from a drunk driver.

Cleveland and Columbus were both designed as car-centric cities, drove past some protestors in each over the past week, they had the decency to do their thing on the sidewalks. I gave them a polite wave as I drove by. In fact, the "No Kings" protestors actually adjusted their upcoming weekend schedule as to not interfere the gay rights demonstration that was scheduled on the day they had originally picked.

Any theories as to why the degree of politeness is different?

I have one

 

[BPPLEE]

Would you agree that the significance of the E Pettus Bridge March is forever etched into the history of the Civil Rights Movement precisely because of the violence that occurred there?

It wasn't the protesters who caused the violence

 

[partinobodycular]

It wasn't the protesters who caused the violence

I get that, and yet it was the violence that caused the E Pettus Bridge March to have such a dramatic effect on the Civil Rights Movement... wouldn't you agree?

 

[durangodawood]

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/majority-americans-support-deporting-immigrants-who-are-us-illegally

https://www.axios.com/2025/01/19/poll-americans-mass-deportation-policies-trump

Thanks for the data. One thing it does ilustrate is how peoples views sometime change the more carefully they are asked to consider an issue.

The reason why the ICE sweeps/raids are getting more backlash now, is because it's Trump that's doing it, when Obama was using that approach (and deporting 3-4 times as many people in the process), the backlash against it was a little more "toned down".

When the narrative is put out into the ethos that "Trump is the most racist president is US history", there will be a subset of the population that attribute everything he does to racist motives.

If it was ever critical to hunt down hypocrites in the country, I hope theyd consider you to lead the crusade. You do have the zeal!

As for Obama / Trump, this may well be another case where the particulars turn views in different directions. How much was Obama's success at turning away people just over the border vs establish hard working people? Who knows. Anyway I dont speak for the accused hypocrites. Maybe a few are here and can chime in.

 

[Bradskii]

As a hypothetical, there could be 10,000 completely peaceful, scattered protests and ONE protest that results in hundreds of people killed. Mathematically (from raw percentages), it would be accurate to say that the "protests" were "mostly peaceful". But an honest assessment would show that the "protests" were in fact quite deadly when objectively analyzed.

So there have been 9,999 protests and they've all been without incidence. It is obviously correct to say that all protests have been peaceful. Then we have protest number 10,000. And people are killed. By what twisted logic is it now possible to say 'the protests (plural) were in fact quite deadly'.

 

[Bradskii]

What an odd statement. That's not a simple proclamation, that's law.

I wouldn't argue. But I think that it's worth highlighting that what a lot of people are protesting about is not lawful activity, but what they perceive as unjust activity. There was a post in another thread where it was noted that an 80 year old woman who was undocumented for a period in the 60's when she came to the US was detained.

I don't think any reasonable person would argue that some undocumented gang member, dealing drugs, committing violence, should (after due process) serve a sentence and then be deported. But that's not what's happening in so many cases.

 

[Bradskii]

Here is the thing: Do the majority of Americans actually disagree with deporting illegal immigrants...or is the problem with ICE for most Americans really just the optics?

It's who they are deporting, how they are deporting them and the obvious lies Trump is telling to justify them being deported.

Should you be rounding up farm workers, meat packers or dishwashers? If you have some real nasty dudes like the ones that ended up in San Salvador - I think that all reasonable people would like to see them deported (whether after serving time in the US or serving time elsewhere is another argument). But there has to be due process.

And Trump's lies? I'm heartily sick of repeating them.

Incidentally, Trump is backing down again, this time in relation to farm and hotel workers. Is it finally dawning on him that you need so many of these people to keep things running?

Trump vows changes to immigration crackdown to protect migrant farmers, hotel workers

President Trump said he plans to make changes to his administration's aggressive crackdown on illegal immigration to address worker shortages.

www.usatoday.com

 

[BPPLEE]

I get that, and yet it was the violence that caused the E Pettus Bridge March to have such a dramatic effect on the Civil Rights Movement... wouldn't you agree?

Yes. If the authorities had just let them march to Montgomery it wouldn't have had the impact it did

 

[BPPLEE]

I guess you just gotta sit there then. I mean at that point, what else could she do?

I take the Metrolink train to work a few times a week and it’s happened more than once where someone had the very unfortunate idea of unaliving themselves in front of the train I was riding. We had to sit there on the train for a couple hours before they cleaned up the mess, let us off and provided bus service to our destinations. Hundreds of people inconvenienced because one person made an incredibly selfish decision. That’s obviously not quite the same as being inconvenienced by a protest but i think you get my point.

Sometimes life be like that.

Looking at the broader context of what’s going on around me, it’s a blessing to only be slightly inconvenienced for a few hours while people are literally being taken away from their jobs to a detention facility when they were doing nothing wrong.

Me being inconvenienced by a protest when I am trying to go to work is not comparable to someone who has broken the law and is facing the consequences

 

[RDKirk]

Maybe it helps to make a distinction in protests between coercive tactics and persuasive tactics. Coercive tactics try to impose some cost on the opposition or on those who are in a position to make a relevant change, e.g. changing public opinion/getting the public's attention through some cost to the general public-causing traffic to stop. Persuasive protests, by contrast, try to draw the opposition or bystanders into a discussion and consideration of a different view w/out trying to impose a cost on them.

Coercion can be defined as “any interference by an agent, A, in the choices of another agent, B, with the aim of compelling B to behave in a way that they would not otherwise do” (Aitchison 2018a, 668; see also entry on coercion). Persuasion, by contrast, requires initiating a dialogue with an interlocutor and aiming to elicit a change of position or even their moral conversion.

Civil Disobedience (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I'm not a fan of blocking traffic as a protest because the potential for causing more harm seems greater than the probability of causing change by that method. It's not going to make drivers embrace cause x; it's just going to create resentment. I think any coercive form of protest is going beyond peaceful protest or "civil disobedience." But there are very specific contexts in which peaceful protests make sense, specifically, when those in power recognize, at least on some fundamental level, the rights and agency of the protestors (and the legitimacy of their claims). What happened during the 60s civil rights era would have never worked for Jews under Hitler, I don't think. There are some contexts when civil disobedience seems naive and other measures probably need to be considered.

I agree that the Civil Rights Era style of protests would not have worked for Jews under Hitler. Then, neither would protests using "coercive tactics" -- see the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Or for that matter, the aforementioned Tienanmen Square protest.

As I discussed just a couple of hours ago, any kind of protest, whether using "coercive tactics" or "persuasive tactics" actually requires a population at least passively favorable to that position.

As I've said before, whatever issue the main of the United States has with ICE right now is a matter of their operational tactics, not their purpose.

 

[BPPLEE]

It's who they are deporting, how they are deporting them and the obvious lies Trump is telling to justify them being deported.

Should you be rounding up farm workers, meat packers or dishwashers? If you have some real nasty dudes like the ones that ended up in San Salvador - I think that all reasonable people would like to see them deported (whether after serving time in the US or serving time elsewhere is another argument). But there has to be due process.

And Trump's lies? I'm heartily sick of repeating them.

Incidentally, Trump is backing down again, this time in relation to farm and hotel workers. Is it finally dawning on him that you need so many of these people to keep things running?

Trump vows changes to immigration crackdown to protect migrant farmers, hotel workers

President Trump said he plans to make changes to his administration's aggressive crackdown on illegal immigration to address worker shortages.

www.usatoday.com

So Trump sees that there is a problem and makes adjustments and that's backing down, folding, cowardice,
I would have thought that you would've been glad he was making changes

 

[BPPLEE]

Generally true. Probably because conservatives are moral laggards and for the most part only see the need for change once its well underway or later. They are more disposed than others to the status quo regardless of how unjust it is.

(Liberals have their own mirror image sort of problem where their disposition toward change can lead to ill considered failure or even disaster.).

Or it could just be that the conservatives are at work and don't take time off to protest

 

[RDKirk]

I’m well aware. That’s a problem inherent in car centric design though. You’d have the same problem if there was a protest blocking the road or just a bad car accident from a drunk driver.

Are you saying that something that could happen accidentally is to be excused if it's caused intentionally?

 

[RDKirk]

I get that, and yet it was the violence that caused the E Pettus Bridge March to have such a dramatic effect on the Civil Rights Movement... wouldn't you agree?

That's a silly point of view.

If it had been the protestors causing the violence, the result would have been far different.

The "dramatic effect on the Civil Rights Movement" would have been to kill the movement.

 

[public hermit]

As I've said before, whatever issue the main of the United States has with ICE right now is a matter of their operational tactics, not their purpose.

The tactics are not good and, in my opinion, they undercut the point. It's like everything this administration does, hamfisted and unthinking.

 

[Bradskii]

So Trump sees that there is a problem and makes adjustments and that's backing down, folding, cowardice,
I would have thought that you would've been glad he was making changes

I would have thought that he'd have seen that there were going to be problems before sending in ICE to boost their deportation rates. But hey, that's just me. From here: Trump vows changes to immigration crackdown to protect migrant farmers, hotel workers

"Our farmers are being hurt badly," Trump said during an event in the White House East Room when asked about his position. "You know, they have very good workers. They've worked for them for 20 years. They're not citizens, but they've turned out to be, you know, great."

Trump said he plans to sign an executive order to address the situation, adding that it will take a "common sense" approach. "We can't take farmers, take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have, maybe not," Trump said.

Those are the comments of a fool. Because everyone has been telling him that it was going to be a problem even before he became president. You've seen the reports of thousands of people being rehired after his monstrously ridiculous DOGE sackings. That was bad. No thoughts about what the results would be. Just action for the sake of being seen to act. And this is the same.

So all those people they've detained from outside Home Depot? All those from the meat packing industry? All those they detained after chasing them through fields? Are they not persona non grata anymore? Do they get to go home to their families?

This is a clown show par excellence.

 

[RDKirk]

Still thinking about this specific of this issue, and I dont think I really know where the American people come down on the various aspects of this question..

But in the mean time, whats your sense of my question generally, which was:
What does the longstanding lack of sympathy in the courts say about the civil disobedience prescription you offered: narrowly tailoring the disobedience to the particular unjust law? Whats the point during the long times when theres no hope of prevailing in court? And what sort of protest is justifiable then?

Violent, never. If you have to get violent, you're not talking about protest, you're talking about war.

Effective protests require holding the moral high ground, and the moral high ground is what everyone already knows in their hearts is right. Until that state occurs, the situation is not conducive to effective protests. You might get some performative political band-aids, but not real change.