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What to do with imprecatory passages in the holy scriptures?

Xeno.of.athens

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One psalm comes to mind when thinking of imprecatory passages. It is, in the KJV, Psalm 137

How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy. Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:4-9 KJV

How is a Christian to explain those words to a person who has expressed interest in Christ but who has read the psalm and has questions about it?
 

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This passage really bothered me for a long time. (And I've noticed that those ending verses are omitted from the cycle of Psalms in our Sunday lectionary.)

What helped it make sense for me was watching the recent invasion of Ukraine, with the destruction of so many civilian targets, like apartments and maternity hospitals. I felt such anger at this terrible destruction of innocent people for no reason beyond the expansion of an empire.

I think that's what we see here: a human poet expressing rage at the destruction of his nation and his Holy City and their Temple, the destruction and loss of the precious holy places where God was made present to them.

I don't think we should read this Psalm the way we would read, say, the Sermon on the Mount. It's not saying that it's good to go kill Babylonian children. But it's an expression of their rage: "How dare you do that to us! I hope the same thing happens to you!" There's a place for anger like that. We can't stop and stay in that anger, and we have to be careful how we act on the anger, but the emotion itself has its place.
 
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One psalm comes to mind when thinking of imprecatory passages. It is, in the KJV, Psalm 137

How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy. Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:4-9 KJV

How is a Christian to explain those words to a person who has expressed interest in Christ but who has read the psalm and has questions about it?
love these verses

a more accurate translations of the Hebrew

Daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed. Blessed is the one who repays you as you have served us. Blessed is the one who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

i can explain this but you will first have to put aside all the theologies and doctrines which have come out from christiandom ...
 
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The Liturgist

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One psalm comes to mind when thinking of imprecatory passages. It is, in the KJV, Psalm 137

How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy. Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:4-9 KJV

How is a Christian to explain those words to a person who has expressed interest in Christ but who has read the psalm and has questions about it?

I shall offer the written form of a homily I have given many times on this Psalm, known as Super Flumina, to answer this question, which is dear to my heart:

The words of this Psalm are terrible words indeed, but since at the end of the Gospel of Luke, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ assures us that the entirety of the New Testament is about Him, we must find Christ in this passage, and to do so we must search for its Christian meaning, which we shall do as follows:

Babylon is used in Scripture to represent the world capitulating to sin, and the diabolical ,whereas Jerusalem is used to represent the world embracing godliness, and the angelic. Thus, the offspring of Babylon, its little ones, are not to be understood as Chaldean children, God forbid.

This is the danger of Antiochian literal-historical exegesis.

Rather, we must turn to the Alexandrian exegetical method, which is based on what Christ said at the end of the Gospel According to Luke, and what the Apostles said, regarding the Old Testament, that it is to be interpreted as Christological prophecy or as reinforcing the teachings of Christ. Babylon, in the Apocalypse for example, as I said earlier, represents the world capitulated to sin, and also the diabolical. What are the offsprings of the world’s capitulation to sin, and the diabolical? The sinful passions and temptations, which we are called to overcome, to resist, to dash against the rocks.

Conversely, the offspring, the little ones of the world embracing godliness, represented by Jerusalem, are children: Godly children, our love for those children, the love that prevents us from wanting to see any child dashed against the rocks, that causes the literal words of this Psalm to catch our attention, and send us on a quest for its true meaning, since God, being love, does not want us to kill children, indeed, abortion is one of the great moral offenses today, and the very reason God allowed the Babylonians to capture Jerusalem is that Jerusalem had become like Babylon by sacrificing its children, passing them through the fire to Moloch in Gehenna, despite St. Josiah, the most virtuous of the early Kings of Judah having previously destroyed the altar to Moloch, like a filthy disease of poor hygiene such as a wart, or like a dog returning to its vomit, the altar came back, and people continued to kill the literal children of Jerusalem, because they would not kill the metaphorical Children of Babylon, and thus the Babylonians were allowed to conquer Jerusalem.

Yet God even when he reproaches us for not triumphing over the sinful passions does not abandon us. Christ himself acted to save, in person the three Jewish children Nebuchadenzzar placed in a furnace, repeating the very offense, ironically, which had caused Israel to conquer Babylon, which is to sacrifice the literal children of Jerusalem and indeed of Babylon as well, for benefit of the figurative children of Babylon, and because the Babylonians kept doing this eventually they were conquered by the Persians, and converted to Christianity, and many of them remain Christian, primarily members of the Ancient Church of the East or the Chaldean Catholic Church or the Syriac Orthodox Church or the Antiochian Orthodox Church, or the Assyrian Church of the East, which are the main denominations in Mesopotamia, or Iraq as it is now known, to this day (and Babylon was abandoned when the Tigris moved, and the people moved to the nearby city of Seleucia-Cstesiphon, also commonly called Bablyon, and then the river moved again and they moved to modern day Baghdad, which is built adjacent to the ruins of Old Babylon.

So the children of Baghdad who are the descendants of the literal children of Babylon are not to be dashed against the rocks, nor the children of Russia, or Germany, or any other conquering power we happen to dislike; this is the passion of revenge, which is one of the figurative children of Babylon, which are the sinful passions: wrathfulness, worldly apnetitites, sexual lust, greed, vengeance and so on, which we must overcome and destroy in order to be perfect even as the Father is perfect, and the Orthodox practice of Christianity, which is the practice of the ancient church, is that we must struggle to overcome these sinful passions.

This is the true spiritual meaning of Psalm 137, Super Flumina, which is one of my favorites, because its superficial meaning is intentionally shocking and offensive and provocative, but Christians who follow the exegetical technique of the Alexandrian church Fathers will quickly realize what is meant here are not actual children at all, on the contrary, to kill a real child of Babylon is to raise to maturity a figurative child of Babylon, allowing a sinful passion, of wrath and vengeance, to take over and turn us into a monster, trying and failing to mete out justice the application of which is reserved for God almighty.

For this reason I strongly objected to some recent Anglican Psalters deleting the imprecations from this Psalm, or indeed John Wesley, who was unaware of Alexandrian exegetical technique despite his learned nature due to the preponderance of the Alexandrian technique in the West (I attribute this to the extreme popularity in the early Western church of Antiochian exegetes like Theodore of Mopsuestia, who was the master of Antiochian literal-historical exegesis, had in the West, in the fourth century, so that when he was anathematized by Emperor justinian, wrongly I think, it resulted in a decades long schism in the province of Hispania known as the Three Chapters Controversy). There is a place for the literal-historical exegesis that was the speciality of Antioch, and actually, we need both that method and the Alexandrian metaphorical-typological-prophetic technique in order to understand the Old Testament in light of what Christ teaches about it before His ascension in the Gospel of Luke, namely that it is all about Him, and the most successful early Church Fathers like St. Athanasius the Great, the Cappadocians (St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Gregory of Nyssa), St. John Chrysostom, who was close friends with Theodore of Mopsuestia as both were from Antioch, by the way, and many others, used both techniques skillfully. Indeed the one church father who overused Alexandrian exegesis to the exclusion of Antiochene literal-historical interpretation, Origen, was anathematized, wrongly I think, at the same time as Theodore of Mopsuestia.

But the literal-historical reality of Jewish anger at their conquest by Babylon which inspired the writing of this Psalm cannot serve as an excuse for ignoring its prophetic and mystagogical meaning, which Alexandrian exegesis provides us, which is that we must struggle against the passions.

Most Old Testament texts have an exoteric or literal meaning, which relates to the history of the Hebrew people before Christ, and an esoteric, or implied, meaning, which relates to the prophecy of Christ, and the trick is to avoid missing the latter by concentrating to much in the former, or vice versa, because if we move too far in either direction, we lose the Christological perspective.

Which returns us to the beginning of this homily on Psalm 137, which is: how do we interpret this Psalm in the light of Christ? For the same way we interpret the challenging words at the end of this Psalm, which seem so terribly opposed to Christianity on the surface, and are so fundamentally Christian on deeper reflection, is the same way we must interpret all other challenging words in the Old Testament, by searching for its meaning in the Light of Christ.
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way I am always looking for how to improve on the above homily; if i could I would avoid getting into the difference between Antiochene and Alexandrian exegesis, but I feel like the laity needs to know that, and Psalm 139 is the perfect bit of Scripture for teaching this.

The subject of Psalm 137 Super Flumina, or “By the waters of Babylon” is so interesting, I could write a book in it. There is a beautiful icon of the Tigris called “By the waters of Babylon” in the gloriously rebuilt Hurva Synagogue in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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One psalm comes to mind when thinking of imprecatory passages. It is, in the KJV, Psalm 137

How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy. Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:4-9 KJV

How is a Christian to explain those words to a person who has expressed interest in Christ but who has read the psalm and has questions about it?
We are now in the New Covenant which means all of the prophesies have been fulfilled . The psalm is a lament for the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of the Israelites to Babylon. It expresses the deep sorrow and anger of the Israelites, and it calls on God to remember their suffering and to punish their enemies.
All under the Old Covenant not New through Jesus Christ of Nazareth. It is important to emphasize the difference as well as distinguishing Biblical accounts through hermeneutics. This verse describes a historical account and is not a command.
Blessings.
 
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The Liturgist

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We are now in the New Covenant which means all of the prophesies have been fulfilled . The psalm is a lament for the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of the Israelites to Babylon. It expresses the deep sorrow and anger of the Israelites, and it calls on God to remember their suffering and to punish their enemies.
All under the Old Covenant not New through Jesus Christ of Nazareth. It is important to emphasize the difference as well as distinguishing Biblical accounts through hermeneutics. This verse describes a historical account and is not a command.
Blessings.

This is correct with regards to its literal-historical meaning but there is always a Christological meaning. As I explained in the homily above, which I have preached several times, the offspring of Babylon are the sinful passions which we must suppress, and not literal children.
 
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Terri Dactyl

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I asked Chat GPT what it meant. This is the reply:
"The passage you provided is from the Bible, specifically from Psalm 137:4-9 in the King James Version (KJV). It is a poetic and emotional expression of the feelings of the Israelites during their exile in Babylon.
In this passage, the speaker is lamenting the difficult situation of being in a foreign land and feeling disconnected from their homeland, Jerusalem. They are expressing a deep longing for their home and a desire to remember it even in a foreign land. The passage also contains a strong expression of anger and desire for revenge against the people of Edom and Babylon, who are seen as enemies of Jerusalem.
The lines "O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones" are particularly intense and are often interpreted as a poetic and historical expression of the Israelites' suffering and desire for justice against their oppressors. It's important to note that these verses are part of the broader context of the Bible and should be understood in that context, rather than as a literal call for violence."
 
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PloverWing

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i can explain this but you will first have to put aside all the theologies and doctrines which have come out from christiandom ...

Speaking for myself: Whatever we do with this difficult passage, I want it to be interpreted in the light of the theology and traditions of Judaism and Christianity. I really don't want to set aside the community that gave birth to the Scriptures, when I'm reading the Scriptures.
 
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eleos1954

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I asked Chat GPT what it meant. This is the reply:
"The passage you provided is from the Bible, specifically from Psalm 137:4-9 in the King James Version (KJV). It is a poetic and emotional expression of the feelings of the Israelites during their exile in Babylon.
In this passage, the speaker is lamenting the difficult situation of being in a foreign land and feeling disconnected from their homeland, Jerusalem. They are expressing a deep longing for their home and a desire to remember it even in a foreign land. The passage also contains a strong expression of anger and desire for revenge against the people of Edom and Babylon, who are seen as enemies of Jerusalem.
The lines "O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones" are particularly intense and are often interpreted as a poetic and historical expression of the Israelites' suffering and desire for justice against their oppressors. It's important to note that these verses are part of the broader context of the Bible and should be understood in that context, rather than as a literal call for violence."
AI can not interpret the bible accurately... do not rely on it. AI is NOT human and can not be led by the Holy Spirit.
 
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eleos1954

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One psalm comes to mind when thinking of imprecatory passages. It is, in the KJV, Psalm 137

How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy. Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:4-9 KJV

How is a Christian to explain those words to a person who has expressed interest in Christ but who has read the psalm and has questions about it?

Babylon broadly speaking are those who are in rebellion to God of which Israel was.

Psalms 137

The message in Psalms 137 shows us the seriousness of sin, calls us to a deeper devotion to God and reminds us of the reality of the judgment and justice of God.

Shows our need of a Savior (Jesus).

The Psalm is not calling for violence ... nor is it depicting God as being a vengeful monster of some kind.

God is love ... one must understand the love of God ... and sometimes that is what we call "tuff love" ... He does not want anyone to perish ... but if one continues to sin (rebellion towards Him) he will allow them to (give them over to their own passions) and the result will be death for eternity. To continue in sin (rebellion towards God) brings on self-destruction.
 
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Speaking for myself: Whatever we do with this difficult passage, I want it to be interpreted in the light of the theology and traditions of Judaism and Christianity. I really don't want to set aside the community that gave birth to the Scriptures, when I'm reading the Scriptures.

the scriptures dont come from Judaism and christianity ... tradititions doctrines and theologies do ....
 
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The Liturgist

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Babylon broadly speaking are those who are in rebellion to God of which Israel was.

Psalms 137

The message in Psalms 137 shows us the seriousness of sin, calls us to a deeper devotion to God and reminds us of the reality of the judgment and justice of God.

Shows our need of a Savior (Jesus).

The Psalm is not calling for violence ... nor is it depicting God as being a vengeful monster of some kind.

God is love ... one must understand the love of God ... and sometimes that is what we call "tuff love" ... He does not want anyone to perish ... but if one continues to sin (rebellion towards Him) he will allow them to (give them over to their own passions) and the result will be death for eternity. To continue in sin (rebellion towards God) brings on self-destruction.

Indeed, this is my opinion of it.
 
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PloverWing

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the scriptures dont come from Judaism and christianity ... tradititions doctrines and theologies do ....

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I view the Scriptures as the most authoritative part of the Jewish and Christian traditions, so I don't sharply separate Scripture and Tradition the way you do. So, I'll note that we come to the Bible with very different viewpoints, and I'll leave it at that.
 
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