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What to do, since the gaslight is over?

RocksInMyHead

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Yep millions of DNA"s have been listed as such.
Have they? Can you give any examples? How many times has an attorney paid for another party's NDA out of his own pocket, been reimbursed by that other party, and had the other party code it as "legal expenses" in their accounting? And, more germane to the situation, how many times has that come up in court and been determined to be legal? It's certainly a crime that wouldn't necessarily be caught very easily, but not getting caught doesn't make your actions legal.
Again It was a non-disclosure agreement. A legal matter. What made it illegal?
"After winning the election, TRUMP reimbursed Cohen through a series of monthly checks, first from the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust – created in New York to hold the Trump Organization’s assets during TRUMP’s presidency – and later from TRUMP’s bank account. In total, 11 checks were issued for a phony purpose. Each check was processed by the Trump Organization and illegally disguised as a payment for legal services rendered pursuant to a non-existent retainer agreement. In total, 34 false entries were made in New York business records to conceal the initial covert $130,000 payment. Cohen was paid $420,000 in total so he would be made whole on the payment, which was being disguised as income and therefore would be taxed."
 
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ralliann

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Have they? Can you give any examples? How many times has an attorney paid for another party's NDA out of his own pocket, been reimbursed by that other party, and had the other party code it as "legal expenses" in their accounting?
I do not know. It does not matter what Cohen did, he served time for his choices in the matter with his own finances. I suspect Cohen did alot on his own to steal from Trump..
Donald paid for a non disclosure agreement.
And, more germane to the situation, how many times has that come up in court and been determined to be legal? It's certainly a crime that wouldn't necessarily be caught very easily, but not getting caught doesn't make your actions legal.
Are you claiming non disclosure agreements are not legal? They are not legal agreements?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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I do not know.
If you don't know of any examples, why claim that "millions" have been listed this way?
Donald paid for a non disclosure agreement.
He did, but he fraudulently disguised the payments in order to hide the fact that he paid for a non-disclosure agreement. That's the illegal part.
Are you claiming non disclosure agreements are not legal?
No. I'm claiming that falsifying business records in order to hide that you're paying someone for a non-disclosure agreement is not legal. Because it is.
 
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ralliann

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If you don't know of any examples, why claim that "millions" have been listed this way?
Because they are "legal agreements", done through legally binding documents being signed...by both parties.
He did, but he fraudulently disguised the payments in order to hide the fact that he paid for a non-disclosure agreement. That's the illegal part.
Cohen did with his own financial dealings. He went to jail for all that stuff.
No. I'm claiming that falsifying business records in order to hide that you're paying someone for a non-disclosure agreement is not legal. Because it is.
For Donald Trump, it was a legal expense.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Because they are "legal agreements", done through legally binding documents being signed...by both parties.
That has nothing to do with how the money is moved around, which is the issue here.
Cohen did with his own financial dealings. He went to jail for all that stuff.
He went to jail for making an illegal campaign contribution. Trump's conviction deals with the accounting side of things on his own end.
For Donald Trump, it was a legal expense.
No, it was not. The Trump Organization disguised the reimbursements to Cohen as payments for a retainer agreement that never existed. Meaning it was coded as income, not a reimbursement. That's why they paid him extra - in order to cover the taxes that he had to pay on those reimbursements (because they were coded as income).
 
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ralliann

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That has nothing to do with how the money is moved around, which is the issue here.
For Cohen He chose to do what he did...
He went to jail for making an illegal campaign contribution. Trump's conviction deals with the accounting side of things on his own end.
Which was to pay his attorney, for a legal expense.
No, it was not. The Trump Organization disguised the reimbursements to Cohen as payments for a retainer agreement that never existed.
Cohen was not his lawyer?
Meaning it was coded as income, not a reimbursement. That's why they paid him extra - in order to cover the taxes that he had to pay on those reimbursements (because they were coded as income).
Done by Cohen.....Donald paid for a nondisclosure agreement, which "some secondary crime" made that a felony.....Pick a crime, no need for unanimity.
 
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ralliann

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That has nothing to do with how the money is moved around, which is the issue here.

He went to jail for making an illegal campaign contribution.
The NDA is not a legal contract? But is an illegal campaign contribution?
Trump's conviction deals with the accounting side of things on his own end.
Trump was paying for a non disclosure agreement. Cohen did the financial shenanigans on his own, to pay it first.
No, it was not. The Trump Organization disguised the reimbursements to Cohen as payments for a retainer agreement that never existed.
He was his lawyer. He paid here with his own finances.
Meaning it was coded as income, not a reimbursement. That's why they paid him extra - in order to cover the taxes that he had to pay on those reimbursements (because they were coded as income).
Cohen was his lawyer, and was also earning an income...
 
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RocksInMyHead

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The DNA is not a legal contract? But is an illegal campaign contribution?
DNA is what codes your cells. An NDA is a legal contract. But if someone pays out an NDA in order to aid in another person's political campaign, it is considered a campaign contribution. And if that contribution exceeds the legal maximum contribution, it would indeed be an illegal campaign contribution. As it did in Cohen's case.

Trump was paying for a non disclosure agreement. Cohen did the financial shenanigans on his own, to pay it first.
And Trump then did his own financial shenanigans to hide the reimbursements to Cohen.
He was his lawyer. He paid here with his own finances.

Cohen was his lawyer, and was also earning an income...
No, Cohen was not employed by Trump at the time that he was being reimbursed (under the guise of a non-existent retainer agreement).
 
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Ana the Ist

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500 during his last year in office.

500 riots is a lot. It's certainly a lot more than a dozen.


Well, that's impressive - you remember reading about one...case closed.

You asked...

If you aren't interested in evidence then don't ask for it.

Did you read the story? It didn't portray the small business owners as white supremacists but said the protests attracted outside white supremacists.

Ok....the article associated the protests with white supremacy. Glad we're on the same page.



They really are not. The indictment, the trial transcripts and the verdict have been linked to over and over in this forum.

Cool, give me the link or thread and post number then.


He didn't need to use his sons as intermediaries although he did have them in charge of his revocable trust that was supposed to shield him from knowing who contributed what to his personal coffers. He apparently considered any presidential property his own personal property. His children and their spouses received direct favors in the form of patents and investments from countries they were visiting as official members of the administration. His first year in office he paid far more in income tax to China than to America.

Again, not sure what you're saying here....we know what Trump's business does.

Can you tell me what any of the dozen Biden shell corporations do? What products do they sell or services do they provide?


Read the indictment then the verdict.

I'll just take this as an indicator that you don't know either.
 
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Ana the Ist

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500 during his last year in office. Still a minuscule 5% spread over a period of several months with some violence being minor and some not. 95% is mostly peaceful.
Well, that's impressive - you remember reading about one...case closed.
Then why bring it up? I seem to recall reading about something trivial that may or may not have been true.
Those flags - or a picture of one - that may or may not have been there bolsters your contention past dispute - white supremacy is mere propaganda made up by a dang news media company.

Did you read the story? It didn't portray the small business owners as white supremacists but said the protests attracted outside white supremacists. Conferedate flags and Nazi symbolism were used as a proxy for identification but maybe they were non-white-supremacist Nazis and states' rights protesters which would be odd since the lock-downs were from the state and not Trump, right?
No, he has had actual accomplishments.

They really are not. The indictment, the trial transcripts and the verdict have been linked to over and over in this forum. But it's so hard to click on the links and read the document cloud. Your ignorance must surely be forgiven under these difficult circumstances.
He didn't need to use his sons as intermediaries although he did have them in charge of his revocable trust that was supposed to shield him from knowing who contributed what to his personal coffers. He apparently considered any presidential property his own personal property. His children and their spouses received direct favors in the form of patents and investments from countries they were visiting as official members of the administration. His first year in office he paid far more in income tax to China than to America.

Read the indictment then the verdict.

Sorry....I stopped reading the list of "accomplishments" after this part...

In the two years since, the federal government and its law enforcement agencies have acted to enshrine dignity, accountability, and trust in their work. Through collaboration and engagement with state and local law enforcement, civil rights groups, labor organizations, families impacted by police violence, and community leaders, the Biden-Harris Administration has taken important steps to improve public trust and advance public safety.

So...if you read that and think, "Wow, that really is a great accomplishment."

And it would be if true....


Public opinion of federal law enforcement is for worse now than it was wayyyyy back in 2018. Listing "public trust" in federal law enforcement as an "accomplishment" is only true if the public actually trusts federal law enforcement more than they used to.

They don't....so those list of efforts to improve public trust in law enforcement should be listed as "failures" not accomplishments.

Before I waste any time reading the rest of that propagan-tastic article....are there any actual accomplishments listed therein?
 
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Ana the Ist

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DNA is what codes your cells. An NDA is a legal contract. But if someone pays out an NDA in order to aid in another person's political campaign, it is considered a campaign contribution. And if that contribution exceeds the legal maximum contribution, it would indeed be an illegal campaign contribution. As it did in Cohen's case.

This is essentially the crime that they got Trump on?

You seem knowledgeable....how much was paid and what is the maximum contribution amount?
 
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ralliann

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That has nothing to do with how the money is moved around, which is the issue here.
It has nothing to do with a campaign contribution, it was legal expense...
He went to jail for making an illegal campaign contribution. Trump's conviction deals with the accounting side of things on his own end.
NDA'S are legal contracts.
No, it was not. The Trump Organization disguised the reimbursements to Cohen as payments for a retainer agreement that never existed. Meaning it was coded as income, not a reimbursement. That's why they paid him extra - in order to cover the taxes that he had to pay on those reimbursements (because they were coded as income).
He was his lawyer. What He did not pay him?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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It has nothing to do with a campaign contribution, it was legal expense...
A legal expense can be a campaign contribution if it is incurred in the process of promoting or aiding a candidate's campaign. These are not mutually exclusive terms.
NDA'S are legal contracts.
You do understand that the word "legal" has multiple meanings, correct? It can mean either "relating to the law" or "not in violation of the law". A "legal contract" is using the first definition of the word (and it's somewhat of a redundancy) - it just means that a contract exists under the law. Same with "legal expense". Neither usage of the word "legal" says anything about whether any violation of the law has occurred.
He was his lawyer. What He did not pay him?
Cohen was Trump's lawyer until 2017 and was paid a salary for it. Trump paid him additional money after his employment was terminated, recorded in his (Trump's) business ledgers as a "retainer fee". However, it was shown during the trial that no such retainer agreement existed and that that money was, in fact, intended to reimburse Cohen for fronting the money for the NDA (and a few other things). Since it was recorded as a retainer fee, it was subject to income taxes, so they paid him extra to cover those. ETA: And that's fraud.
 
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Ana the Ist

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But if he would have made this a campaign expense he could have been prosecuted for that?

It's not really a concern of mine...

This is the first time a former president has been convicted of a felony. If it was an obvious or understandable crime....it would be clearly explained in a dozen or so articles.

It amounts to Trump not filling out paperwork correctly and nobody really cares except those who have been desperate for this day to come since 2016.

If you accept the low ball number....about 1/5th of his 2016 campaign was his own money. Hillary Clinton? 0$ of her own money. Campaign finance laws are for folks like her....where there are strict rules about how you can spend other people's money contributed to your campaign. If he just said "I reallocated a million dollars of my own money to pay a prostitute to shut her trap"....would this even be a crime?

The real news that should be on everyone's mind is that....if you're on the left....your preferred news outlet has been lying to your face. The right wing media hasn't been selectively editing....they haven't been cherry picking footage....they've been pointing out that Biden's brain doesn't work for years. I used to think Robert Hur was exaggerating to cover for Biden....he said Biden's brain is so far gone that despite having plenty of evidence to convict, a jury isn't likely to because he's too incompetent to be held accountable.

Think about that....they're running a candidate too mentally impaired to be held accountable for crimes he definitely committed. He definitely took classified documents he wasn't allowed to take. He knew he took them, as they were important to him personally and his time as VP, and he wanted to share them with his biographer. He then shared these docs with his biographer (a man with no security clearance) which is something that the biographer admitted.

We can't hold him accountable....because his brain is mush. MSNBC, CNN, NYT, HuffPo, WaPo....all of these outlets have known his brain is mush for years now. For every 10 minutes of Biden footage they use, they have another 50-80 minutes they don't use. They've been covering for Biden for years. Afghanistan? Blame someone else. The border? Not his fault. Inflation? Not a problem if you're a multi millionaire. Human trafficking, terrorists, fentanyl? Don't worry about it. Homelessness? I suggest you get a Guatemalan passport, sneak across the border, ask for asylum, go to NYC or Chicago where you'll be given a check, a roof over your head, and 3 meals a day.

All that stuff nobody voted for like teaching children gender theory and which race is to blame for everything and which races are hopeless? Don't complain about it to your local public school or you risk a little visit from the feds.

This is what it looks like when there's no leadership and no accountability. They want Joe to win because then the party continues for 4 years...and people like this get appointed so everyone can pat themselves on the back.


This guy (I don't care what his pronouns are) got a top appointment because he checked a lot of gay boxes....and he also stole people's luggage from the airport because he's a kleptomaniac. Is he doing time for literal theft? No. Trump however, filled out a form wrong...and we're supposed to care. Does Biden know who Sam Brixton is? I doubt it. Did Biden appoint him? Only on paper. The vast majority of his appointments are box checking exercises and far left activists. I doubt he knows who he appointed to the SCOTUS.

This administration has done so poorly....that despite having the majority of the media covering for them and talking about UFOs every time a big mistake was made....Trump appears to be more likely to win the election. Trump.....who the media portrayed as something between a harbinger of WW3 and a white supremacist that's politically to the right of Hitler for the last 7 years....is quite literally getting record breaking support from demographic groups that Republicans historically weren't able to convince 1 in 10 voters to support them.

No president has had harsher criticism from the press than Trump. No president has had more support from the press than Biden. The one upside to this whole debacle is the fact that the public isn't simply believing the mainstream news anymore. The "threat to democracy" exists....but it's not who the press claims. It's the unholy union of big tech, big pharma, big banks, big media and the Democratic Party. I typically don't care who wins an election....but the best thing that could possibly happen is Trump winning in November, clearing the DOJ, DHS, FBI, and multiple parts of the CIA. He should replace them with people loyal to the job, and go after every bureaucrat and official he can find any dirt on....

No waiting till they're up for reelection....just move ASAP on everyone dirty. This corruption needs to stop.
 
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ralliann

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A legal expense can be a campaign contribution if it is incurred in the process of promoting or aiding a candidate's campaign. These are not mutually exclusive terms.

You do understand that the word "legal" has multiple meanings, correct? It can mean either "relating to the law" or "not in violation of the law". A "legal contract" is using the first definition of the word (and it's somewhat of a redundancy) - it just means that a contract exists under the law. Same with "legal expense". Neither usage of the word "legal" says anything about whether any violation of the law has occurred.
You do understand legal documents created and made legally binding by one's lawyer/s cost money? It is a legal service performed?
Cohen was Trump's lawyer until 2017 and was paid a salary for it. Trump paid him additional money after his employment was terminated, recorded in his (Trump's) business ledgers as a "retainer fee". However, it was shown during the trial that no such retainer agreement existed and that that money was, in fact, intended to reimburse Cohen for fronting the money for the NDA (and a few other things). Since it was recorded as a retainer fee, it was subject to income taxes, so they paid him extra to cover those. ETA: And that's fraud.
You do understand the former chair of the FEC, was ready to give testimony concerning these "legalities" but was not allowed to give testimony on those "legalities"?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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You do understand legal documents created and made legally binding by one's lawyer/s cost money? It is a legal service performed?
Yes - you pay the lawyer for their time. I don't see what that has to do with anything we're talking about though. Cohen did not send a bill for his time, and the Trump Org. didn't record the payments as such. They were recorded as "retainer payments" when no retainer existed. You don't pay a retainer fee for services that a lawyer performed years before.
You do understand the former chair of the FEC, was ready to give testimony concerning these "legalities" but was not allowed to give testimony on those "legalities"?
Which "legalities" are you referring to? The section of my post that you quoted above this had absolutely nothing to do with election law or the FEC.
 
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DaisyDay

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500 riots is a lot. It's certainly a lot more than a dozen.
But it is still about 5% which makes the other 95% mostly. You know this.
[/quote]You asked...
If you aren't interested in evidence then don't ask for it.[/quote]I asked if you could verify something you brought up. That it turned out to be something so extremely trifling isn't something I would have known before asking, is it?
Ok....the article associated the protests with white supremacy. Glad we're on the same page.
Are we though? You seem to be implying that the article made the association willy-nilly.
Cool, give me the link or thread and post number then.
No, thanks. You could easily find them if you actually wanted to educate yourself. Just google it as I would have to do if I were to run this fool's errand for you. :rolleyes:
Again, not sure what you're saying here....we know what Trump's business does.
In the singular? He has literally hundreds of LLCs. Do you know what each of them do?
Can you tell me what any of the dozen Biden shell corporations do? What products do they sell or services do they provide?
Not offhand, name them.
I'll just take this as an indicator that you don't know either.
Of course you will.
 
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DaisyDay

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Sorry....I stopped reading the list of "accomplishments" after this part...

In the two years since, the federal government and its law enforcement agencies have acted to enshrine dignity, accountability, and trust in their work. Through collaboration and engagement with state and local law enforcement, civil rights groups, labor organizations, families impacted by police violence, and community leaders, the Biden-Harris Administration has taken important steps to improve public trust and advance public safety.

So...if you read that and think, "Wow, that really is a great accomplishment."

And it would be if true....


Public opinion of federal law enforcement is for worse now than it was wayyyyy back in 2018. Listing "public trust" in federal law enforcement as an "accomplishment" is only true if the public actually trusts federal law enforcement more than they used to.

They don't....so those list of efforts to improve public trust in law enforcement should be listed as "failures" not accomplishments.

Before I waste any time reading the rest of that propagan-tastic article....are there any actual accomplishments listed therein?
Oops, I stopped reading after you claimed you did. Sorry not sorry.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Oops, I stopped reading after you claimed you did. Sorry not sorry.

Clever.

Look...I get this is frustrating. You post literal Biden-Harris administration propaganda....it gets disproven with one survey.

What is it? Did you think reports of Biden's mental decline have been exaggerated? Is there a nagging feeling that the media has been lying to you for years now? What's grinding your gears?
 
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