What think ye? :)

[dfw69]

Rabbinic Judaism is wrong about many things.
So is Christianity.

So you agree with the statement?

 

[BukiRob]

What do you mean by Christianity receiving Torah?

Rabbinic Judaism believes it's only necessary for gentiles to keep the seven Noahide Laws, not possible to observe all of the 613 Mitzah ordinances when some of the ordinances require a Temple and Temple Priests.

There is NO SUCH THING as a Noahide Law. It is a construct of man, not G-d

 

[BukiRob]

The op or statement I posted is not mine ... I found it and wanted to hear people's ideas about it..

The statement suggest Christians should obey Torah (even when the temple is built) with the Jews to be one nation ...

The Gentiles serving noachide law and Israel serving Torah seems to suggest two houses not "one new man"

“There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.” (Ex. 12:49)

The concept of a so called Noahide Law is a construct of MAN, not G-d.

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Yeshua.

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua.

 

[danny ski]

“There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.” (Ex. 12:49)

The concept of a so called Noahide Law is a construct of MAN, not G-d.

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Yeshua.

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua.

LOL! I'd say the dragon will be confused on whom to make the war.

 

[AbbaLove]

There is NO SUCH THING as a Noahide Law. It is a construct of man, not G-d

Agreed! So, being that Rabbinic Judaism includes manmade constructs such as a Noahide Law we should assume for the sake of the "op or statement" that Torah means the Ten Commandments and not the 613 mitzvah constructs?

Acts 2:44-46
44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,…

Was this "irrational exuberant" or a model worth following that the Holy Spirit inspired?

Nowadays both Christainism and Rabbinic Judaism would most likely consider such activity a cult. How far we've come now that we are so religious

Rabbinic Judaism is wrong about many things.
So is Christianity.

 

[pat34lee]

So you agree with the statement?

The laws of Yahweh were not just given to the Jews.
They were given to all of Israel, plus the mixed multitude
who left Egypt with them. That multitude represented all
nations of the earth.

 

[dfw69]

LOL! I'd say the dragon will be confused on whom to make the war.

What do you mean?

 

[dfw69]

1. What is sin? Sin is breaking any law of God.

Yes

2. Does God change? No.

3. Who wrote the law, God or Moses?

God wrote his commandments on stone .. Israel was found in rebellion .. Stones were broken by Moses ... The law was then written on parchment by Moses under God instructions

4. If God wrote the law, then the law is perfect.

5. If God never changes, and the law is perfect, then his law cannot change.

Yes agree ... If you place yourself under that covenant ... Yes


But another covenant has been made by Y'shua ..I have placed myself under that covenant

6. If the law cannot change, then it is still sin to break the law.

yes agree

7. Proof would be that the law is still in effect in the future.

Until it is no longer needed...

One law people like to think is no longer in effect is that of clean
verses unclean food.

Isaiah 66:16-17
16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many. 17 "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice, Will come to an end altogether," declares the LORD.

When God tells me to no longer eat bacon I will cease ... But for now I follow the New Testament on the matter 1 Timothy 4:4

 

[dfw69]

You are taking what the writer of Hebrews is talking about. The entire chapter is about FAITH Yet once again, you make the classic mistake that most gentile believers make and that is they DO NOT UNDERSTAND the purpose of the law.

Your more than welcome to school me on the purpose of the law...

What I know is the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Y'shua ..

The law can't save only condemn

The promises of God do not come from the law

The law is bondage Paul made this clear Galatians 4:21-31

You are inferring that somehow salvation is linked to the law. THIS IS UNTRUE. It wasn't true in Moche's time and it is not true today.

What do you believe salvation is?

Salvation to me is Y'shua paying our debt of the sins committed against the law....that is why he died .. He was a sin offering .. You disagree with this work of Y'shua?

In 2 Peter we are WARNED about Paul's teaching and how they are easily misunderstood: Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Yes I have found some do not understand Paul's teachings..

If as you say Paul teaches that the Torah is not for the present day believer because the Messiah nailed it to the cross then why does he do what James and the Elders tell him to do in Acts 21?

17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 “What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23“Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Notice 2 very striking things here #1 James indicates that there are JEWS WHO HAVE BELIEVED and that they are ZEALOUS FOR THE LAW.... NO WHERE DOES JAMES INDICATE THAT THIS IS WRONG. IN fact, because he instructs Paul to take the vow of the Nazarene JAMES VERIFIES THE LAW IS TO BE KEPT.

#2 James says to do this SO THAT ALL WILL KNOW PAUL KEEPS THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I honestly don't know.. Does it say he actually did what he was asked to do?..

Perhaps Paul did not speak against the Gentiles entering into circumcision because he had not yet received that revelation yet.. But it's clear that Paul eventually does speak against entering into the law teaching there are 2 covenants Galatians 4:21-31 ..and is tried and becomes a martyr

Really one of the single biggest issues (at least as I see it) is that we westerners tend to read scripture from our cultural bias and tend to forget that scripture is largely a JEWISH Book. Written almost exclusively by Jews for a Jewish audience full of Jewish idioms and aimed at those who have a jewish understanding. Consider if you

I agree ..that is why I have been seeking Jewish understanding from both Jews and messianics .. So thank you very much for sharing ..peace

 

[pat34lee]

When God tells me to no longer eat bacon I will cease ... But for now I follow the New Testament on the matter 1 Timothy 4:4

Would you eat worms, skunks, buzzards or monkeys? These
may seem nasty, but if you look at things we consider food
today, it's the same. Shrimp and lobsters are relatives of
cockroaches. Crabs are the same family as spiders. Clams
and oysters are filters that suck the poisons out of the water,
so they can kill you from the toxins they hold. Pork has worms
that are nearly impossible to kill, though few will say so.
http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jun/03-hidden-epidemic-tapeworms-in-the-brain

 

[dfw69]

So from what I gather from all the post is messianic standpoint is Jew and Gentiles should observe Torah i.e. 10 commandments and not the 613 commandments or noachide laws ..right?

 

[dfw69]

Would you eat worms, skunks, buzzards or monkeys? These
may seem nasty, but if you look at things we consider food
today, it's the same. Shrimp and lobsters are relatives of
cockroaches. Crabs are the same family as spiders. Clams
and oysters are filters that suck the poisons out of the water,
so they can kill you from the toxins they hold. Pork has worms
that are nearly impossible to kill, though few will say so.
http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jun/03-hidden-epidemic-tapeworms-in-the-brain

Shrimp lobster crabs clams oysters pork ...I have eaten with thanksgiving ... I'll pass on the rest ..

 

[Hoshiyya]

Shrimp lobster crabs clams oysters pork ...I have eaten with thanksgiving ... I'll pass on the rest ..

If God told you to not do that, would you abstain ?
Thanksgiving is not the issue, and I think you should know that.

Are you more eager to eat pork, or to obey God, so that if you had to make a choice, which would you make ?

Adam ate what God had forbidden him, and it wasn't even unclean food. Whether Adam ate the forbidden fruit with thanksgiving or not is not the issue. Keeping God's laws is the issue.

 

[Hoshiyya]

what do you think about this statement true or false?

"When rabbinic Judaism recieves Yahshua as messiah and Christianity recieves Torah then the two houses will be ' one new man'

true or false?

False, here's why I say that..

I think the religion of Yeshua will emanate from him. It will not be a reformation of any extant or extinct form of Christianty or Judaism. When he comes, the truth will shine forth from him. In the millennium, "the law will go forth from Zion, the word of God from Jerusalem", as scripture says.

I view the Kingdom and the Religion of Yeshua as basically synonymous (for many intents and purposes). All the religions and other systems that exist today, particularly some of the Abrahamic religions, have the function of preparing us for life in the physical Kingdom of Yeshua on earth. I also think it is fair to categorize Yeshua's religion as a form of Judaism, however it would have more similarities to ancient Judaism than to modern Judaism.

For Christianity to "receive Torah" would mean that it would cease to be Christianity. I do not think that for Judaism to "receive Yeshua" would mean that it would cease to be Judaism, and I think it would be easier in theory for Judaism to accept Yeshua than for Christianity to receive Torah.

Accepting Yeshua would be mostly a change in doctrine for Judaism, whereas going from non-Torah to Torah lifestyle, calendar, feasts, and thereby abandoning the pagan festivals, rituals, etc. would be, for Christianity, to completely reimagine itself, both theoretically and practically.

Saying "Yeshua is the Messiah" is a much simpler thing than to go from non-Torah to Torah lifestyle, to say the least. Hence modern Judaism is much closer to the religion of Yeshua than Christianity, by virtue of it needing less change. However, again, while I see Yeshua's religion as a form of Judaism, I do not see it as an organizational continuation of any Hasidic dynasty, or any other modern Jewish organization.

 

[AbbaLove]

So from what I gather from all the post is messianic standpoint is Jew and Gentiles should observe Torah i.e. 10 commandments and not the 613 commandments or noachide laws ..right?

Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

"When Rabbinic Judaism receives Yeshua as Messiah and Christianity receives Torah then the two houses will be 'one new man'

'one new man' became a reality among the first Jewish followers of Yeshua that experienced the indwelling presence of His Spirit. Then this 'one new man' became a reality when extended to the first gentiles as recorded in Acts 10.

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Possibly you've been wondering if any Messianic would post the following verses ...

Ephesians 2:14-18
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

 

[dfw69]

If God told you to not do that, would you abstain ?
Thanksgiving is not the issue, and I think you should know that.

Of course ... What's the issue with unclean foods?. I'm not s Jew I don't give it any thought .. I'm not under the law

Are you more eager to eat pork, or to obey God, so that if you had to make a choice, which would you make ?

Obeying God is most important ...I obey God by observing his sons covenant ratified by his blood

Adam ate what God had forbidden him, and it wasn't even unclean food. Whether Adam ate the forbidden fruit with thanksgiving or not is not the issue. Keeping God's laws is the issue.

He heard God specifically say do not eat .. I have not heard my father say anything .. But I believe the new covenant account on the matter not the old covenant .. No offense

 

[danny ski]

What do you mean?

The followers of commandments don't follow Jesus. The followers of Jesus don't follow commandments.

 

[Extraneous]

The followers of commandments don't follow Jesus. The followers of Jesus don't follow commandments.

Are you sure?

Jeremiah :31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

[dfw69]

Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

So there are 2 great commandments
Love God ... Love everybody else as yourself... These two are my laws.. my great foundation that I built my house upon

All the law is referring to the 10 written in parchment by Moses right?

'one new man' became a reality among the first Jewish followers of Yeshua that experienced the indwelling presence of His Spirit. Then this 'one new man' became a reality when extended to the first gentiles as recorded in Acts 10.

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Possibly you've been wondering if any Messianic would post the following verses ...

No ..why would you say that ?.. You think I was trying to set a trap?......that's the first thing that came into my head that is why I asked...lol.. I'm not that skilled in the word

Ephesians 2:14-18
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Good scripture ... That settles it we are one body in Yshua ..We all knew that...

What was the middle wall exactly that he put to death? ... I think it's the wall that separates the court of Gentiles from inner court right ?

So this means when Ezekiel temple is built there is no court of Gentiles right?

Abbalove what does it mean when you say Circumcised heart is messianic?...I mean what is a circumcised heart from a messianic standpoint ..no hidden agenda here ..just curious ...

 

[dfw69]

The followers of commandments don't follow Jesus. The followers of Jesus don't follow commandments.

You say that like its a bad thing