What think ye? :)

[visionary]

I think that Yeshua is the cornerstone between what Judaism believes regarding the Messiah and what Christianity spouts. When the Holy Spirit convicts them of their error, it will bring them to Yeshua as their Messiah, because all of a sudden The King of Jews, makes sense to them.

 

[dfw69]

Again, a confused gentile teaching of error. Do you refuse to even accept Yeshua's own words on the matter?

I accept all Y'shua has to say on the matter... I'm sorry I got caught up defending my belief ..I will cease now after this post and remain the sinner I am ...may my father in heaven find mercy on me for I will obey his son and live a life of mercy and forgiveness of sins against me

Did he not say" "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

Yes he did

And even more plainly: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

the greek for fulfill is pleroo. Many, many try to force pleroo to mean do away with or complete. Strong's as well as the NAS lexicon identify the use of Pleroo to mean:

1. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.

Yeshua came in part to teach us HOW to be obedient sons and daughters and what the full meaning of the torah is/was

HE DID NOT COME TO DO AWAY WITH IT.... that is a lie from the pit

Yes he indeed fulfilled the law... I personally believe he fulfilled it for me and my life is hidden in him ..peace to you and thank you for your replies

 

[dfw69]

I think that Yeshua is the cornerstone between what Judaism believes regarding the Messiah and what Christianity spouts. When the Holy Spirit convicts them of their error, it will bring them to Yeshua as their Messiah, because all of a sudden The King of Jews, makes sense to them.

May hashem save all the house of Israel

 

[dfw69]

You clearly do not know what Messianic Judaism is at all. The synagogue I go to an observant Jew who is not saved looks like a conservative synagogue. The service is conducted like a conservative synagogue. Our Rabbi is a Jew who is a believer and is recognized by several conservative and reformed as a Rabbi. Our elders are almost exclusively all Jews who are saved and have walked with Messiah for many, many, many years.

The Mission of messianic Judaism is to be a witness to JEWS. To a gentile who has never been to a synagogue if you attended a Sabbath service it would seem very different from what you are used to seeing on a Sunday

Yes I have little knowledge of messianic Judaism ... I am learning a little at a time

 

[BukiRob]

Yes he indeed fulfilled the law... I personally believe he fulfilled it for me and my life is hidden in him ..peace to you and thank you for your replies

again you are pushing your own words there. I showed what the Greek is saying there. You are trying force a meaning of abolished when it is unmistakably clear that is NOT what he is saying

 

[Lulav]

Thanks for your reply pat

It will be a shock if yeshua returns as a man who is pro law .. Because many Christians hold him as liberator of the yoke of bondage

May I ask your opinion as to whose messiah will come first ?... Yeshua or the Jewish messiah based on rabbinic teachings ?

I understand you were asking Pat, but If I may,

Yeshua IS the Jewish Messiah. Thousands did accept him as such, then as well as today.

 

[dfw69]

again you are pushing your own words there. I showed what the Greek is saying there. You are trying force a meaning of abolished when it is unmistakably clear that is NOT what he is saying

I think you misunderstood me I agree that Y'shua came to fulfill the law..but then nailed it to the cross Colossians 2:14

 

[dfw69]

I understand you were asking Pat, but If I may,

Yeshua IS the Jewish Messiah. Thousands did accept him as such, then as well as today.

I understand that is what you believe sis

But there are 3 belief systems

1) my beliefs what messiah is .. Y'shua the fulfillment of the law for sinners ... That is our central faith

2) your beliefs in yeshua similar to mine in some aspects but the main point is he did not abolish the law but teaches how to obey the law .. You and I both believe the messiah is the son of God

3) rabbinic Judaism messiah .. A man who is still yet to come to fulfill messianic prophecies who will not be a son of God or a Demi God but an ordinary man like Moses who will get the victory over a gog Magog war ...this man can come tomorrow for if a son of David fulfills the messianic prophecies he would be recognized as messiah

So my question was which of the two will come first? If rabbinic messiah then checkmate .. If yeshua then checkmate ... I know mine will not return until certain prophecies must take place one being a false messianic age ... Mine comes first to take his followers to heaven and not to the land of Israel ...

 

[Lulav]

I think you misunderstood me I agree that Y'shua came to fulfill the law..but then nailed it to the cross Colossians 2:14

Nope, doesn't that seem rather innane to you? I mean, why fulfill something you plan on doing away with? Why make millions of Jews keep these laws of G-d and then do away with them for the Gentiles? doesn't make much sense when you think about it.

Paul was greatly misunderstood. 'The writing that was against us' is the penalty for breaking the law. If the law no longer exists then what did Yeshua die for you for?

When you say, run a red light. A policeman stops you, issues you a ticket, a written document because you broke a law that is on the books.

You go to court, the judge asks you if you ran a red light, you tell the truth (because you know there's proof, traffic cams and all) and say 'yes'.

Now the Judge can do one of two things. He can condemn you and make you pay a fine or go to jail.

OR

He can tell you that someone else paid the ticket for you so you are free to go.

But what he won't tell you is that the law and the penalty for breaking it are now erased from the books.

You are

or your 'ticket' was nailed to the tree.

Do you follow?

 

[dfw69]

Nope, doesn't that seem rather innane to you? I mean, why fulfill something you plan on doing away with? Why make millions of Jews keep these laws of G-d and then do away with them for the Gentiles? doesn't make much sense when you think about it.

Good honest questions ..no not insane at all...why fulfill to only then do away? The answer is redemption .. We are all guilty of breaking the law ... The law explains what sin is .. The law only condemns sinners.. As long as the law has power over Adam ...Adam is bound by the law and found guilty of sin and unworthy of gods righteousness...So in order to free Adam from the power of the law that condemns him.. a man, the son of God came to fulfill the law perfectly ..no sin was found in him... Thus he fulfilled the law perfectly and has obtain the righteousness of the law... He then is nailed to the cross as a sin sacrifice for the entire world...but in doing so the law is paid for .. You no longer are bound to its debt... You are free from bondage and the power of the law to condemn you ... But Only if you enter into a new covenant to be one with Y'shua ... As one you are his body and his body is yours ... It's as if you fulfilled the law perfectly because you are one with him... You have traded status .. He was you and you are now him... You died on the cross .. In that he died for you.. Now you have been given a great gift ... His status ... As God as a son as obedient as righteous all the promises he has obtained are yours.... This is the good news the greatness of his love for sinners ... If the law is still in power then Y'shua died in vain

Paul was greatly misunderstood. 'The writing that was against us' is the penalty for breaking the law. If the law no longer exists then what did Yeshua die for you for?

Yes but not only the penalty but the entire law as well ... If the law still exist then your sins still exist right?... Will you not sin against the law once you have been cleansed ?... If you do sin against the law again there is not another sacrifice prepared for us ...

When you say, run a red light. A policeman stops you, issues you a ticket, a written document because you broke a law that is on the books.

You go to court, the judge asks you if you ran a red light, you tell the truth (because you know there's proof, traffic cams and all) and say 'yes'.

Now the Judge can do one of two things. He can condemn you and make you pay a fine or go to jail.

OR

He can tell you that someone else paid the ticket for you so you are free to go.

But what he won't tell you is that the law and the penalty for breaking it are now erased from the books.

Do you follow?

Yes...but in this case there is no law for running a red light so there will never be an issued ticket...

Look we are free but we are sinners so we await the gift promised to us for obeying new laws... The gift is the righteousness of Y'shua his status to become sons of God a gift where we will put off the flesh and put on the body of God ... We will be perfect not by observance of the law which was indeed the old way to please God ..but by the new way made possible by the blood of Y'shua ... This is what his death means for sinners the chance to become as he is ...the law will not be needed anymore because Y'shua blood has covered us in righteousness and we will be like him

I know this is hard to believe but this is the reason Y'shua was rejected in the first place ...I hope I answered your questions in a way that you may be able to understand my position

 

[pat34lee]

Yes...but in this case there is no law for running a red light so there will never be an issued ticket...

1. What is sin? Sin is breaking any law of God.

2. Does God change? No.

3. Who wrote the law, God or Moses?

4. If God wrote the law, then the law is perfect.

5. If God never changes, and the law is perfect, then his law cannot change.

6. If the law cannot change, then it is still sin to break the law.

7. Proof would be that the law is still in effect in the future.

One law people like to think is no longer in effect is that of clean
verses unclean food.

Isaiah 66:16-17
16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many. 17 "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice, Will come to an end altogether," declares the LORD.

 

[visionary]

Yup... some think that doing away with the law does away with sin. No wonder sin is ill defined.

 

[BukiRob]

I think you misunderstood me I agree that Y'shua came to fulfill the law..but then nailed it to the cross Colossians 2:14

Again, you clearly do not understand what the context of pleroo means. He walked out the law AS IT SHOULD BE OBSERVED. In the very next verse (continuation of his statement) Yeshua says "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

The prophets spoke about BOTH of Messiah's comings which means he could NOT have under any stretch of imagination have even remotely suggested what you are trying to say. Furthermore to alleviate ANY possible confusion Messiah say (continuing his thoughts on this matter

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Yeshua being G-d and knowing all things KNEW the "church' would do exactly what it has done, set aside the Appointed Days of G-d, Sabbath and the Torah ALL of which places us as gentiles as being the least in the kingdom of heaven because of this error.

Furthermore, in this chapter of Matthew after he states all of the above Messiah then teaches the listeners the HEART of the law by expounding on the error of merely obeying the letter of the law.

How can you completely ignore massive chunks of scripture in the OT that speak plainly about the new covenant? In Jeremiah where he prophecies that the new covenant will be that Torah written on the hearts and minds of the follower.

The gentile church has been duped by Satan into believing that the Torah is done away with when it is not. Please explain how Paul plainly states that the Torah (Law is a bad translation INSTRUCTION is a better translation) that it is HOLY. Did it suddenly become not holy? And if it is Holy and WE ARE CALLED TO BE HOLY... then how do you become holy by ignoring the fact that the Torah is called the WAY in which a man should go? The Torah is LAMP unto your feet directing your path. Does not Proverbs tell you that IN ALL OF YOUR WAYS (Torah following) acknowledge HIM and HE will direct your path.

No matter how one tries to spin, gyrate, twist or play with words we have 2 and ONLY 2 ways we can live our lives. We can do things as we see fit and live according to what we thing pleases G-d claiming to be "led by the spirit" OR we can submit ourselves to G-ds way. His way is very, very, very, very clear and it is found in the Torah. It tells us WHAT a holy life looks like, how we are to live.

Yeshua said that when we love G-d with all our heart, mind and soul and love our neighbor as ourself the entire Torah and Prophets are founded on this reality. However, G-d paints a picture with the Torah as to specifically HOW we accomplish those two things.

Unfortunately, you have bought the lie that the Torah is bondage. That it is a means by which a person is trying to "earn salvation." This is not true. Salvation occurred for Adam, Abraham, David and all of those who were saved before Messiah the same way you are saved today. By GRACE, through Faith. Genesis tells of Abraham..... Abraham believed G-d and it was accounted to him as righteousness.....

 

[dfw69]

Again, you clearly do not understand what the context of pleroo means. He walked out the law AS IT SHOULD BE OBSERVED. In the very next verse (continuation of his statement) Yeshua says "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

I have agreed with you ..Y'shua walked out the law as it should be observed ..

..yes the law is still enforced ..for many walk in it and have put themselves under its power ... so since you willfully place yourself under its binding covenant you are responsible for how you live by the law ..

Personally i prefer new wine ..not the old wine which is fermented and causes drunkenness .... By that I mean when people read the law so much so that they become intoxicated to the point that they think themselves to be more righteous than sinners and are ready to pass judgement and death.. A big no no in the faith...

. No .. I'm not saying good is evil.. That the law is evil ...what I am saying is mans heart is evil ... Ready to use the law unlawfully to judge and condemn sinners ...

Why is it unlawful to use the law to judge and condemn sinners?... Because all authority to exercise the law belongs to only one man ...no other ... So if man one day decides to use the law against others then they break the kings orders who commands to judge not and condemn not ... For what measure you meet will be measured upon you ...so yes I agree the law exist ...

But not for those hidden in Y'shua ...Y'shua has personally saved them.. that is his mission ..to seek and save the lost.... I am the lost..right?

The prophets spoke about BOTH of Messiah's comings which means he could NOT have under any stretch of imagination have even remotely suggested what you are trying to say. Furthermore to alleviate ANY possible confusion Messiah say (continuing his thoughts on this matter

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

By whom?...who is making this judgement?... Who does Y'shua say is calling me the least in the kingdom?

Yeshua being G-d and knowing all things KNEW the "church' would do exactly what it has done, set aside the Appointed Days of G-d, Sabbath and the Torah ALL of which places us as gentiles as being the least in the kingdom of heaven because of this error.

Actually I was born under this government so I had no say ...

If the entire world would walk in sabbath and appointed days what difference would it really make?

Furthermore, in this chapter of Matthew after he states all of the above Messiah then teaches the listeners the HEART of the law by expounding on the error of merely obeying the letter of the law.

Which is greater the letter of the law or the heart of the law?..

How can you completely ignore massive chunks of scripture in the OT that speak plainly about the new covenant? In Jeremiah where he prophecies that the new covenant will be that Torah written on the hearts and minds of the follower.

I am not ignoring ...I Just have a different interpretation

How is the Torah written in your heart?... He said he will take away the heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh... Has this happen to you?...if so please explain

The gentile church has been duped by Satan into believing that the Torah is done away with when it is not. Please explain how Paul plainly states that the Torah (Law is a bad translation INSTRUCTION is a better translation) that it is HOLY. Did it suddenly become not holy? And if it is Holy and WE ARE CALLED TO BE HOLY... then how do you become holy by ignoring the fact that the Torah is called the WAY in which a man should go? The Torah is LAMP unto your feet directing your path. Does not Proverbs tell you that IN ALL OF YOUR WAYS (Torah following) acknowledge HIM and HE will direct your path.

Did not you say Y'shua is Torah? It is now him that you should follow and obey ..his teachings are greater that Moses .. Moses was a servant ... Y'shua was a son ..the son is greater than the servant...

In order to put on Y'shua yoke as he ask his followers to learn of him , you must cast off Moses yoke...you cannot walk with both on... They are not one and the same...what is a yoke used for? In other words what does Y'shua want you to do with his yoke?

The law will forever be holy .. Man is not..nor can be holy by the law ...only by the blood of Y'shua is one sanctified and made whole

The Torah has served its purpose as Paul teaches ..no longer under the schoolmaster Galatians 3:24-25

No matter how one tries to spin, gyrate, twist or play with words we have 2 and ONLY 2 ways we can live our lives. We can do things as we see fit and live according to what we thing pleases G-d claiming to be "led by the spirit" OR we can submit ourselves to G-ds way. His way is very, very, very, very clear and it is found in the Torah. It tells us WHAT a holy life looks like, how we are to live.

Spin and twist? .. I bet you were taught I'm Satan.. And God is testing you though my beliefs

There is only one way ..faith in the blood of Y'shua for cleansing and righteousness

Yeshua said that when we love G-d with all our heart, mind and soul and love our neighbor as ourself the entire Torah and Prophets are founded on this reality. However, G-d paints a picture with the Torah as to specifically HOW we accomplish those two things.

Paul say if I obey one commandment which is from Y'shua ...I fulfill the entire law...Galatians 5:14... You may say "that is not from Y'shua but from Torah ".. Y'shua reestablished that law within the new covenant and Paul adds obeying it is the fulfillment of the entire law...

So technically if I obey this one law I am holy for I will have fulfilled the entire law perfectly ...

Unfortunately, you have bought the lie that the Torah is bondage. That it is a means by which a person is trying to "earn salvation." This is not true. Salvation occurred for Adam, Abraham, David and all of those who were saved before Messiah the same way you are saved today. By GRACE, through Faith. Genesis tells of Abraham..... Abraham believed G-d and it was accounted to him as righteousness.....

Yes many were saved by faith and they served the law in the past ...but now a better thing has come...Hebrews 11:40

Paul taught the law is bondage and two different covenants Galatians 4:21-25

We don't have to discuss this here ..if you still want to discuss the law.. Please pm me... Thanks for your replies

 

[BukiRob]

-

 

[BukiRob]

You are taking what the writer of Hebrews is talking about. The entire chapter is about FAITH Yet once again, you make the classic mistake that most gentile believers make and that is they DO NOT UNDERSTAND the purpose of the law.

You are inferring that somehow salvation is linked to the law. THIS IS UNTRUE. It wasn't true in Moche's time and it is not true today.

In 2 Peter we are WARNED about Paul's teaching and how they are easily misunderstood: Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

If as you say Paul teaches that the Torah is not for the present day believer because the Messiah nailed it to the cross then why does he do what James and the Elders tell him to do in Acts 21?

17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 “What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23“Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Notice 2 very striking things here #1 James indicates that there are JEWS WHO HAVE BELIEVED and that they are ZEALOUS FOR THE LAW.... NO WHERE DOES JAMES INDICATE THAT THIS IS WRONG. IN fact, because he instructs Paul to take the vow of the Nazarene JAMES VERIFIES THE LAW IS TO BE KEPT.

#2 James says to do this SO THAT ALL WILL KNOW PAUL KEEPS THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really one of the single biggest issues (at least as I see it) is that we westerners tend to read scripture from our cultural bias and tend to forget that scripture is largely a JEWISH Book. Written almost exclusively by Jews for a Jewish audience full of Jewish idioms and aimed at those who have a jewish understanding. Consider if you

 

[visionary]

There is no Kingdom without a Law... Even God's Kingdom has a Law He created.

 

[AbbaLove]

"When rabbinic Judaism recieves Yahshua as messiah and Christianity recieves Torah then the two houses will be ' one new man'

What do you mean by Christianity receiving Torah?

Rabbinic Judaism believes it's only necessary for gentiles to keep the seven Noahide Laws, not possible to observe all of the 613 Mitzah ordinances when some of the ordinances require a Temple and Temple Priests.

 

[pat34lee]

What do you mean by Christianity receiving Torah?

Rabbinic Judaism believes it's only necessary for gentiles to keep the seven Noahide Laws, not possible to observe all of the 613 Mitzah ordinances when some of the ordinances require a Temple and Temple Priests.

Rabbinic Judaism is wrong about many things.
So is Christianity.

 

[dfw69]

What do you mean by Christianity receiving Torah?

Rabbinic Judaism believes it's only necessary for gentiles to keep the seven Noahide Laws, not possible to observe all of the 613 Mitzah ordinances when some of the ordinances require a Temple and Temple Priests.

The op or statement I posted is not mine ... I found it and wanted to hear people's ideas about it..

The statement suggest Christians should obey Torah (even when the temple is built) with the Jews to be one nation ...

The Gentiles serving noachide law and Israel serving Torah seems to suggest two houses not "one new man"