What think ye? :)

[pat34lee]

.. Y'shia said " many" false messiahs will come .. So it's possible that the sons of David may rule for a few generations ...

What Kind of impact will that false messianic age do the religions of the world?...

Then when it seems all is put down .. There will come the final antichtist an Assyrian who the Gentiles will get behind seeking to destroy Israel completely ..all the prophecies of the lands will take place during these days ...Israel will flee and Hashem will seal 144000 (the firstborn of Israel) ...and they will be caught up to heaven just before the flood of armies come in ..then Hashem will send Enoch and Elijah to witness ..

There have been false messiahs since bar Kochba, and earlier.
They don't have to be as deadly as Hitler or Mohammed. All
they have to do to be anti-messiah is teach another gospel.
THE anti-messiah, though will be something else, indwelt
by Satan when he gains power.

The two witnesses will be here before the 144,000 are marked,
and the 144,000 in heaven are another group. Those on earth
will be the gatherers and leaders of the tribes when Yahweh hides
them as the great tribulation begins.

 

[dfw69]

You are describing the tribulation. The Christians will
be looking for a free ride out, yet it won't happen.

Why do you believe the Christians will not get saved from the tribulation? You believe the Christians are mystery Babylon ? So death is the verdict for Y'shia body?

The antichrist will gather power and rule for a few years,
and then will come the true return of Yeshua, and the
millennial reign. The Gog-Magog war will be at the end
of that 1000 years. Then a new heaven and earth.

Who do you believe is the antimessiah is that will rise up against the church Babylon?

 

[dfw69]

There have been false messiahs since bar Kochba, and earlier.
They don't have to be as deadly as Hitler or Mohammed. All
they have to do to be anti-messiah is teach another gospel.
THE anti-messiah, though will be something else, indwelt
by Satan when he gains power.

Where do you believe he comes from? Do you believe he will lead the Christian nations against Jerusalem ? If so ... Why would they gather to fight against Israel?

The two witnesses will be here before the 144,000 are marked,
and the 144,000 in heaven are another group. Those on earth
will be the gatherers and leaders of the tribes when Yahweh hides
them as the great tribulation begins.

who are the two witnesses ?
You believe 144000 will be in heaven? Who are they?
And 144000 on earth? Who are they?

So anyone who follows the 144000 witnesses will be lead back to Jerusalem or the promise land ...and find safety from the wrath of Hashem and the anti messiah ?

 

[visionary]

Why do you believe the Christians will not get saved from the tribulation? You believe the Christians are mystery Babylon ? So death is the verdict for Y'shia body?

Who do you believe is the antichrist that will rise up against the church Babylon?

Interesting questions.. understandably making sense from where you are coming from.

Have you ever wondered who are the two groups of Rev 11:1-2?

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

One group is in the inner temple, while the other group is out in the outer courtyard. When you look at what is in the outer courtyard you will find the symbolic sacrificial altar and the laver [symbolic of the mikvah/washing/baptism of believers]. When you look into the inner temple you find - the Menorah [Holy Spirit] seven candlesticks where you Yeshua in the center of and where you see His seven churches lit up

- the shewbread [its literal meaning is 'bread of the face'] The Word of God

John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

- altar of incense, where prayers are offered

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

- and the Ark of Testament. The Law of God

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Those who get it and get into the temple come with the understanding of what is in there and what it means to them. They are the royal priesthood.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep thecommandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

Those who cling to their baptism [show of faith] and the cross [know the sacrifice for their sins] will be outside in the outer court where they become the great multitude that no man can number.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;....19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

[visionary]

Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.

1 Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

The study of the tabernacle is so rich in meaning to the Christian and so pregnant with Messianic significance that we can spend a lifetime in the study of it and only begin to understand the riches and the depth of truth that lies within the study of the tabernacle.

Rom 15:4 "Whatever things that were written before were written for our learning."

 

[dfw69]

Interesting questions.. understandably making sense from where you are coming from.

Have you ever wondered who are the two groups of Rev 11:1-2?

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I believe this temple will be rebuilt during the false messianic age...after some time has past ..a day comes when this temple of God and the alter and them that worship therein are measured for judgement because they have broken the laws ... But the court outside the temple and alter along with the city is not measured for judgement because it is given to the Gentiles to tread underfoot for 42 months ... A sign for the Jews that the messianic age was false

One group is in the inner temple, while the other group is out in the outer courtyard. When you look at what is in the outer courtyard you will find the symbolic sacrificial altar and the laver [symbolic of the mikvah/washing/baptism of believers]. When you look into the inner temple you find - the Menorah [Holy Spirit] seven candlesticks where you Yeshua in the center of and where you see His seven churches lit up

- the shewbread [its literal meaning is 'bread of the face'] The Word of God

John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

- altar of incense, where prayers are offered

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

- and the Ark of Testament. The Law of God

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Those who get it and get into the temple come with the understanding of what is in there and what it means to them. They are the royal priesthood.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep thecommandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

Those who cling to their baptism [show of faith] and the cross [know the sacrifice for their sins] will be outside in the outer court where they become the great multitude that no man can number.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;....19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

[visionary]

I believe this temple will be rebuilt during the false messianic age...after some time has past ..a day comes when this temple of God and the alter and them that worship therein are measured for judgement because they have broken the laws ... But the court outside the temple and alter along with the city is not measured for judgement because it is given to the Gentiles to tread underfoot for 42 months ... A sign for the Jews that the messianic age was false

Those measured in the temple are for the seal of God. Yom Kippur they know well.

 

[dfw69]

Those measured in the temple are for the seal of God. Yom Kippur they know well.

I have no clue .. What do you mean?

 

[pat34lee]

Why do you believe the Christians will not get saved from the tribulation? You believe the Christians are mystery Babylon ? So death is the verdict for Y'shia body?

Who do you believe is the antimessiah is that will rise up against the church Babylon?

Did Israel and Judah die in Egypt, or in Assyria,
or Babylon, or in the exile since the temple was
destroyed? Did Noah die when the flood destroyed
the world and everything else on it? No matter what
the judgment that we bring on ourselves, Yahweh will
save himself a remnant who serve him totally.

How will the churches fare? How many do you know
who serve the Father to the exclusion of all else? Who
visits the sick and the imprisoned, cares for the poor,
and provides for the widows and orphans?

Whoever turns out to be the anti-messiah will come
to power as a man of peace, and he will stop the
fighting in Israel and the Middle East for a time. The
pope (prophet of the beast) will put the full power of
the RCC behind him and the world, even most churches,
will follow. Only when he has the world at his feet will
he defy Yahweh and proclaim himself a god. By then,
many people will believe him.

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

The biggest false messiah is the one taught by the false prophet who created Christianity. The last person we should listen to is Yeshua himself, himself being him, living and speaking through his own mouth, NO ONE who came after him.

 

[daq]

The biggest false messiah is the one taught by the false prophet who created Christianity. The last person we should listen to is Yeshua himself, himself being him, living and speaking through his own mouth, NO ONE who came after him.

Do you then believe the "book of Revelation" came before or after Yeshua?
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[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

The book of Revelation is an interesting topic, and I'll TRY MY BEST to give my opinion without breaking the rules.

I believe that the book is actually three separate books (or at least two).

The letters written at the beginning COULD be genuine and even have been penned by the living Yeshua himself before the crucifixion, of course there is no grounds to claim this, but I see nothing in them that appears false, I quite like the way that they finish the following conversation:

• Paul to the Ephesians: "I am an apostle of Yeshua"

• The Ephesians to Paul: "No you're not."

• Yeshua to the Ephesians: "Well done!"

The second part, I believe, is a coded letter warning the Jews that the Romans are about to destroy the Temple, warning of the coin of Nero (mark of the beast), and of the false prophet preaching a false messiah, that it was okay to eat that which is sacrificed to idols if your faith is strong enough, and other abominations, and it is ultimately warning people people to hold fast to BOTH the TORAH and YESHUA, as opposed to the false dichotomy presented (Orthodox Judaism VS Torah-less Christianity).

The third part, I believe, is a rough compilation of Tanakh prophecy written in such a way that it is very vague, very interpretable and confusing, yet utilising legitimate prophetical imagery, but is actually a blueprint and roadmap to the elitists' vision of the utopian society that is so prevalent in modern conspiracy theory (the ultimate assumed goal of the so-called illuminati - a perfect world unified under one single ruler) portrayed as the prophecised kingdom. I believe that this is the reason for the messiah being referred to as the morning star, a title previously given to Satan/Lucifer (and while there are many complex attempts to explain this all over the internet, I believe that if something requires a complex mental-gymnast explanation, it should be cut by Occam's Razor, not bent into shape by the Hopeful Hammer) and the references to the messiah as the alpha and omega and a figure of worship as opposed to the Creator alone being the only receiver of worship and one who deserves this title.

I studied the Book of Revelation for many years, sometimes almost exclusively, even after concluding that I couldn't accept most of the NT as scripture, and I just couldn't imaging Rev being a book that I could throw out. After realising that it is just a foggy mess of interpretable imagery that no two people can agree on, and it's very easy to come up with so many theories ranging from transhumanism, to babylonian empires, to RFID chips, to the Islamic Mahdi, to New Ager UFO invasions fulfilling preterite and futurist prophecy, I concluded that it was just distracting me from the clear and concise prophecies in the Tanakh and even in the Book of Matthew.

Now, I'm not telling you that you should reject Rev, not at all, I'm not trying to convince anyone that it is false, I myself am actually AGNOSTIC on the issue (ie, I don't believe that we can genuinely really know much about it, nor can we learn much from it), although I acknowledge that the seven letters to the gentile followings COULD be genuine and as I mentioned, could have been penned by Yeshua (though to me, this would require that following of the opposition often translated as synagogue of satan would refer to the early Christian groups, pre-Catholicism, but the fruit of this sentence, over the past two millennia has resulted in extreme antisemitism, so I just remain agnostic to the issue) but we have absolutely no way to really know for sure.

One thing I do not believe is that the entire Book of Revelation was penned by the apostle named John while in prison on Patmos, because the messiah specifically warned of two places that we should never believe that anyone has seen him; one is in the desert/wilderness, and the other is in a hidden room/locked away chamber. I categorically DO NOT BELIEVE that anyone has ever seen the messiah after his death in any prison cell, secluded road, private road, desert path or anywhere. Again I'm ONLY stating my own beliefs and hope that doing so doesn't break the rules (as I've stated at least once, I'm NOT trying to present a case to anyone in order to change their beliefs).

I hope that answers your question, although I am positive that many people will disagree with me (I myself a year ago would have joined them in disagreeing with me lol) but I'm not trying to say "Revelation is false", I'm just providing my reasons for believing what I believe, in context to your question

 

[daq]

Since you are essentially undecided perhaps you might try looking at it as Nazar-essene halakha written in the apocalyptic genre, that is, penned by the greatest to have arisen out of men having been born of women, the forerunner Yochanan Eliyahu, (finishing touches completed in the Patmos-Prison of Herod). And blessed are those who keep sayings of the book.
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[visionary]

I think Revelation makes more sense in the light of feasts and the temple services.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Of course ... What's the issue with unclean foods?.

I have not heard my father say anything .. But I believe the new covenant account on the matter not the old covenant

Thanks for your reply.

Since you are aware that unclean food is forbidden in the Torah, you don't need to ask "what's the issue with unclean foods?"

The issue is of course that they are forbidden. It appears you believe this used to be the case, but that God changed his mind (even though scripture specifies that he DOES NOT CHANGE Malachi 3:6, Heb 6:17-19).

 

[Hoshiyya]

Since you are essentially undecided perhaps you might try looking at it as Nazar-essene halakha written in the apocalyptic genre, that is, penned by the greatest to have arisen out of men having been born of women, the forerunner Yochanan Eliyahu, (finishing touches completed in the Patmos-Prison of Herod). And blessed are those who keep sayings of the book.
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There are quite a few differences between the Essenes and the NT theology. Paul spends time arguing against the Essene concept of "Maasei HaTorah", being a specific Essene concept. Those unfamiliar with this issue think that "the works of the law" mentioned by Paul literally refers to, well, keeping the law of God. But that is not what it means. He is arguing against a specific Essene interpretation of and attitude toward the law.

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

"Of course ... What's the issue with unclean foods?.

I have not heard my father say anything .. But I believe the new covenant account on the matter not the old covenant"


I can't wait for the new covenant!

What does it say? - We will no longer have to learn or teach the torah because the torah will be written inside us (ie become instinctual), unfortunately not the case today as we still have to read it and teach others about it, and since the majority of the world are not obeying torah, we can demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that torah is not yet written in the hearts of men and thus the new covenant is still yet to come to pass. Can't wait! No one will try and serve cuts of swine, full of puss, parasites and other gross stuff! No one will try and disturb my lovely Saturday rest, man, I love my Saturday rest on the day that was gifted to me to enjoy!

 

[BukiRob]

Thanks for your reply.

Since you are aware that unclean food is forbidden in the Torah, you don't need to ask "what's the issue with unclean foods?"

The issue is of course that they are forbidden. It appears you believe this used to be the case, but that God changed his mind (even though scripture specifies that he DOES NOT CHANGE Malachi 3:6, Heb 6:17-19).

With all love and humility I think we need to go a step further. It is not that the issue is "unclean foods" The issue is that animals that are unclean ARE NOT FOOD at all.

Once you realize this it places those things in the category of dirt. Would you eat dirt? No, of course not because ITS NOT FOOD. The same can be said of those animals and creatures that are unclean. They serve a function in creation but they are not FOOD.

 

[Hoshiyya]

With all love and humility I think we need to go a step further. It is not that the issue is "unclean foods" The issue is that animals that are unclean ARE NOT FOOD at all.

Once you realize this it places those things in the category of dirt. Would you eat dirt? No, of course not because ITS NOT FOOD. The same can be said of those animals and creatures that are unclean. They serve a function in creation but they are not FOOD.

I agree. Of course "food" can just mean anyting that is prepared for consumption, whether God considers it legitimate or not, but your definition is also true, and worth contemplating.

The reverse can be true as well:
Locusts are technically legal for food, but I don't consider locusts food, or at least not appetizing, myself.

 

[daq]

There are quite a few differences between the Essenes and the NT theology. Paul spends time arguing against the Essene concept of "Maasei HaTorah", being a specific Essene concept. Those unfamiliar with this issue think that "the works of the law" mentioned by Paul literally refers to, well, keeping the law of God. But that is not what it means. He is arguing against a specific Essene interpretation of and attitude toward the law.

Yes, I know that, (and that is why I "liked" your post on the same topic several days back). I did like the way the author of your article made the distinction between the Qumran Essenes and the more general Essene population within the population. Your recent comments there are also appreciated in that indeed Paul seems to have been quite familiar with stricter Qumranite Essene, (Zadokite) theology but that still does not mean one should throw the baby out with the bath water. The Qumranites did not have all the correct understanding but neither did anyone else. The Torah kept them "between the lines" until Messiah came and expounded all, as Paul also alludes in some places, and when Messiah came no doubt many Essenes, Ebionites, and likewise some of the more rigid Qumran Essenes became Messianics. The northerners were probably more of the Nazar-Essene "floating" sub-population group within the population. This may also be why we do not find a literal city called Nazaret anywhere until about the second or third century; Nazaret is a "moving target", a subset population group or "city" of people within the greater population group, (as well as being a frame of mind).
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