What think ye? :)

[Lulav]

It's about official recognition.

Yeshua said:

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together,
the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!…​

Now was he speaking to the city? No, it would be like today if you wanted to make a cry against The US you would say

Washington, Washington! You who print on your money 'In God we trust' push him out at every turn...............

It is directed at those in power. At that time the power of Israel and the Jewish people was in Jerusalem, There was the Temple and there was the Sanhedrin, the leaders.

It is like the example above In America there are people who do believe and trust in G-d but the ones who represent us to the world do not.

Yeshua made a statement that he must uphold before he left this earth that follows right after what I posted above

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."​

The recognition must be from the leaders, they must recognize him as the Messiah. They are the ones who would crown kings (annoint).

 

[BukiRob]

Perhaps when the spirit of the lord is poured out in the future will remove the veil...

What does the veil represent?

Blindness. Yeshua pointed out that they searched the scriptures for Messiah and when he was present they did not see him. Messiah is clearly seen in the Torah. Today, the "Church" also suffers from blindness it has rejected the Feasts days of G-d, HIS appointed times. It has rejected the Torah and because of this, the body as a whole is (as revelations speaks of) Blind, wretched and naked

 

[dfw69]

It's about official recognition.

Yeshua said:

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together,
the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!…​

Now was he speaking to the city? No, it would be like today if you wanted to make a cry against The US you would say

Washington, Washington! You who print on your money 'In God we trust' push him out at every turn...............

It is directed at those in power. At that time the power of Israel and the Jewish people was in Jerusalem, There was the Temple and there was the Sanhedrin, the leaders.

It is like the example above In America there are people who do believe and trust in G-d but the ones who represent us to the world do not.

Yeshua made a statement that he must uphold before he left this earth that follows right after what I posted above

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."​

The recognition must be from the leaders, they must recognize him as the Messiah. They are the ones who would crown kings (annoint).

So one day the elders will not deny that Yahshua is the true messiah as with all the sanhedrin and priests will recognize him because no doubt he will fulfill messianic prophecies

 

[dfw69]

Blindness. Yeshua pointed out that they searched the scriptures for Messiah and when he was present they did not see him. Messiah is clearly seen in the Torah. Today, the "Church" also suffers from blindness it has rejected the Feasts days of G-d, HIS appointed times. It has rejected the Torah and because of this, the body as a whole is (as revelations speaks of) Blind, wretched and naked

Well Paul taught let no man judge you concerning feast new moon sabbath

As for Torah Paul taught against that too.. Calling it another gospel and besides if we take up the yoke that Y'shua fulfilled for our righteousness it will shipwreck our faith...we will be establishing self righteousness again and denying Y'shua work

Plus I believe the law will play a major role leading many to be deceived when a false messiah comes

You also mention laodocia condition ... Laodocia means a church that judges or is judged...they are reaping what they sowed Bukirob ... In order for them to be judged they must have judged and have been found worthy to be judged to refine them....

My guess is this condition of last day church will be using the law to judge sinners condemning them to death cutting off the sinners of the world Jew or gentile so that the illusion of the false messianic age appears to be here

 

[Lulav]

So one day the elders will not deny that Yahshua is the true messiah as with all the sanhedrin and priests will recognize him because no doubt he will fulfill messianic prophecies

Have you ever wondered about that story in Luke 24 about how after the Crucifixion and resurrection there were two men walking to Emmaus? and they didn't recognize Yeshua who walked with him until later when 'he opened their eyes'?

This is a parable of what is to come. The two represents the proper Torah legal witnesses. They needed to have all the prophecies written about him told to them for them to recognize someone they lived and walked with. Same thing.

 

[BukiRob]

Well Paul taught let no man judge you concerning feast new moon sabbath

As for Torah Paul taught against that too.. Calling it another gospel and besides if we take up the yoke that Y'shua fulfilled for our righteousness it will shipwreck our faith...we will be establishing self righteousness again and denying Y'shua work

Plus I believe the law will play a major role leading many to be deceived when a false messiah comes

You also mention laodocia condition ... Laodocia means a church that judges or is judged...they are reaping what they sowed Bukirob ... In order for them to be judged they must have judged and have been found worthy to be judged to refine them....

My guess is this condition of last day church will be using the law to judge sinners condemning them to death cutting off the sinners of the world Jew or gentile so that the illusion of the false messianic age appears to be here

You misunderstand what Paul is teaching. Paul did not say DONT observe the Sabbath's or feast days. The church does NOT observe them at all.

You want to know why the body is largely weak, fleshly etc? You want to know why the divorce rate among Churches described as EVANGELICAL/BORN AGAIN is HIGHER than among those that describe themselves as atheists? Becuase we live in a world where much/most of christians "want it their way"

Holiness is something that is self described or articulated by the "pastor" or "church elders" Woe unto those who call that which is good evil and evil good. That is THIS generation. Scripture tells us HOW we are to walk. That is exactly what the Torah IS. It is the manual on HOW to be upright. It tells you what HOLINESS is...

There is a way that seems right to a man (doing that which is right in his or her own eyes) but its END leads to destruction. G-d says what is holy NOT MAN. In a church that pays lips service to holiness and entirely rejects the Torah you end up with what we have today. A largely ineffective, weak, blind, wretched church that the world laughs at because it is neither holy, nor righteous nor does it walk in power and might because it REJECTS the word

 

[dfw69]

You misunderstand what Paul is teaching. Paul did not say DONT observe the Sabbath's or feast days. The church does NOT observe them at all.

True the church does not observe them except law abiding ones

Where does it say Paul teaches to observe the feast and sabbath?

You want to know why the body is largely weak, fleshly etc? You want to know why the divorce rate among Churches described as EVANGELICAL/BORN AGAIN is HIGHER than among those that describe themselves as atheists? Becuase we live in a world where much/most of christians "want it their way"

Christians are weak in the flesh I give you that... We are bound to all manner of sins .. Thus the need for Y'shua to change us and give us new bodies until then we must practice the laws of Y'shua forgive sins 70x7 in one day is the standard .. No one sins against us that many times in a day but forgiving is the key to good relationships

Holiness is something that is self described or articulated by the "pastor" or "church elders" Woe unto those who call that which is good evil and evil good. That is THIS generation. Scripture tells us HOW we are to walk. That is exactly what the Torah IS. It is the manual on HOW to be upright. It tells you what HOLINESS is...

I understand why you believe that...

We believe holiness is found in the foundation Y'shua laid within his laws towards one another ..we are sinners awaiting our transformation to be like God for our faith in Y'shua who is able to make sons of God because he has obtain the righteousness of the law for us... It's a gift for God loves the world that he gave us his son to be a sin offering and freedom from the law ..he made a way where the law could do nothing only condemn because we all have sinned

The Torah is a covenant made between Jews and God and gentile converts are welcomed but the new covenant is made between all nations and God the laws we obey are withing the new covenant ... The old covenant has penalties for breaking them .. No where in the New Testament says those laws are to be enforced ...there is no penalty for sins committed against us only to forgive and condemn not by the law...yet one day they will be enforced by a false messiah .. We are prewarned not to follow him..

There is a way that seems right to a man (doing that which is right in his or her own eyes) but its END leads to destruction. G-d says what is holy NOT MAN.

Bro I agree only that man thinks the right way is through obedience to Torah .. Seems right right? Nor is the law evil...right?.... But if man begins to use the law to condemn sinners and follow a false messiah what then?...the law they trust in will judge them reaping what they sow ... Knowing clearly in scripture Y'shua taught to judge not condemn not ...


God does say what is holy ..God says believe and obey his son who has laid the foundation on what is holy through faith and obedience to his law

In a church that pays lips service to holiness and entirely rejects the Torah you end up with what we have today. A largely ineffective, weak, blind, wretched church that the world laughs at because it is neither holy, nor righteous nor does it walk in power and might because it REJECTS the word

Yes they laugh it's fortold ..but to them who believe is the power of God unto salvation and Y'shua will prove you wrong when he shows his love to the Gentiles

Call not unclean what God has cleaned through the blood of Y'shua not the law...

Look what the law is doing to you now bro...look how you see gods people .. You see sinners weak powerless ... If a false messiah comes what will become of you armed with the law?...You will no longer look like Y'shua who forgave the woman at the well....

Who is most likely to judge and condemn by the law when the false messiah comes breaking the Royal law of Y'shua you or me?

 

[dfw69]

Back to the op.. anyone would like to comment true or false? .. I should've made a poll

 

[BukiRob]

I see




They may claim to be Christian and people may identify them as Christians but because they fail to walk as Jesus walked they cannot be a Christian for a Christian is known by his fruits ....





What I mean by judging is to stand in court against him to find sin and condemn by the law to death... This only should God do not man

But others have already judge in their minds ,say the Jews for unbelief , and are ready to condemn them to death ... This is not supposed to be Christian behavior ...true Christians must walk in accordance to his laws ...

I don't believe in judging righteously according to the law it leads to hate and condemnation ... I believe if one judges according to the law that he will also reap what he sowed and be judged by the law...this type of behavior leads to separation from loved ones...

I would suggest that you might want to read the Psalms and Proverbs. The Torah is FULL of Mercy. Yeshua IS THE TORAH

 

[pat34lee]

Like Joseph's brothers who didn't recognize him because he was dressed up like an Egyptian, rabbinic Jews don't recognize Yeshua because he is dressed up like a Gentile.

Red herring. The Jewish leadership didn't accept Yeshua
the first time, and he followed the law perfectly, as only
he could. Those against him will find some excuse not to
follow him, no matter how he is presented.

 

[pat34lee]

The recognition must be from the leaders, they must recognize him as the Messiah. They are the ones who would crown kings (annoint).

That and even more. Those who outlawed speaking the
name "Yahweh" will have to call on his name in front of
everyone. They have to invite him back personally.

 

[pat34lee]

what do you think about this statement true or false?

"When rabbinic Judaism recieves Yahshua as messiah and Christianity recieves Torah then the two houses will be ' one new man'

True, but not so simple. Forget the names. We will have to
accept Yeshua as he is, not as we want him. That may come
as a shock to everyone.

 

[dfw69]

True, but not so simple. Forget the names. We will have to
accept Yeshua as he is, not as we want him. That may come
as a shock to everyone.

Thanks for your reply pat

It will be a shock if yeshua returns as a man who is pro law .. Because many Christians hold him as liberator of the yoke of bondage

May I ask your opinion as to whose messiah will come first ?... Yeshua or the Jewish messiah based on rabbinic teachings ?

 

[BukiRob]

Thanks for your reply pat

It will be a shock if yeshua returns as a man who is pro law .. Because many Christians hold him as liberator of the yoke of bondage

You are spouting the gentile creed.... Law being bondage which is a lie.

Torah is HOLY. We are called to be holy

How do you deal with the book of 1 John? Just ignore it?

1 John 2: 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

We are to walk as Messiah walked. How did he walk? Upright BLAMELESS in COMPLETE COMPLIANCE with the Torah. He is the master teacher showing us the FULLNESS of the Torah.

 

[BukiRob]

Thanks for your reply pat

It will be a shock if yeshua returns as a man who is pro law .. Because many Christians hold him as liberator of the yoke of bondage

May I ask your opinion as to whose messiah will come first ?... Yeshua or the Jewish messiah based on rabbinic teachings ?

Yeshua IS the promised messiah of Israel.

You are hung up on rabbinical Judaism and I have NO idea why. Yeshua RAILED against their traditions that supplanted the decree of scripture

 

[dfw69]

I would suggest that you might want to read the Psalms and Proverbs. The Torah is FULL of Mercy. Yeshua IS THE TORAH

Yes I believe Y'shua is Torah and I also believe Torah was nailed to the cross to die ending the old Torah and raised a new man a new Torah

 

[dfw69]

Yeshua IS the promised messiah of Israel.

You are hung up on rabbinical Judaism and I have NO idea why. Yeshua RAILED against their traditions that supplanted the decree of scripture

We have a common enemy that of course does not mean we go to war with them to annihilate them as some believe and teach

If the Jews find their messiah based on rabbinic teachings it will spell doom for messianic Judaism as well

Will messianic Judaism unite against the rabbinic messiah to wage war against Judah under yeshua ?

 

[BukiRob]

Yes I believe Y'shua is Torah and I also believe Torah was nailed to the cross to die ending the old Torah and raised a new man a new Torah

Again, a confused gentile teaching of error. Do you refuse to even accept Yeshua's own words on the matter?



Did he not say" "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

And even more plainly: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

the greek for fulfill is pleroo. Many, many try to force pleroo to mean do away with or complete. Strong's as well as the NAS lexicon identify the use of Pleroo to mean:

1. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.

Yeshua came in part to teach us HOW to be obedient sons and daughters and what the full meaning of the torah is/was

HE DID NOT COME TO DO AWAY WITH IT.... that is a lie from the pit

 

[dfw69]

You are spouting the gentile creed.... Law being bondage which is a lie.

It's my understanding that Paul taught that we were debtors to the law bound in sin and needed to be free from the power of the law ... As long as the law exist I am a debtor and guilty of death this the need for my sacrifice .. But when the law was nailed to the cross and died I was freed and I should not be entangled again to pick up the law because I will again be found a sinner and there is no more sacrifice for sin again ...

Torah is HOLY. We are called to be holy

How do you deal with the book of 1 John? Just ignore it?

1 John 2: 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

His commandments referring to judge not condemn not love enemies love sinners forgive 70x7 in one day

We are to walk as Messiah walked. How did he walk? Upright BLAMELESS in COMPLETE COMPLIANCE with the Torah. He is the master teacher showing us the FULLNESS of the Torah.

If we can walk as Y'shua walk in Torah then can I be sacrificed and die for your sins ?

 

[BukiRob]

We have a common enemy that of course does not mean we go to war with them to annihilate them as some believe and teach

If the Jews find their messiah based on rabbinic teachings it will spell doom for messianic Judaism as well

Will messianic Judaism unite against the rabbinic messiah to wage war against Judah under yeshua ?

You clearly do not know what Messianic Judaism is at all. The synagogue I go to an observant Jew who is not saved looks like a conservative synagogue. The service is conducted like a conservative synagogue. Our Rabbi is a Jew who is a believer and is recognized by several conservative and reformed as a Rabbi. Our elders are almost exclusively all Jews who are saved and have walked with Messiah for many, many, many years.

The Mission of messianic Judaism is to be a witness to JEWS. To a gentile who has never been to a synagogue if you attended a Sabbath service it would seem very different from what you are used to seeing on a Sunday