What think ye of Ezekiel's Temple?

usexpat97 said:

Back to the OP, I don't think Ezekiel's temple was really prophecy. They were instructions. They were instructions predicated on a prophecy, but they were instructions. The OT Prophets books frequently foretold of Israel being restored, which they were. Prophecy fulfilled. But then they were given instructions to rebuild the temple in such-and-such a way. They didn't. The book of Haggai was written, scolding them for not.

Failing to heed God's instructions does not constitute a "prophecy yet to be fulfilled". It constitutes sin.

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The passage usually ignored is Ezekiel 43:10-12. Ezekiel never made the plan known to the house of Israel.

claninja said:

Because it says generation TO generation. If Mary had said ‘this generation’ instead of generation TO generation in luke 1:50, we know Mary would be speaking of a specific generation: her own generation.

By your logic, it appears you believe generation TO generation means the same thing as ‘this generation’. It obviously does not.

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Let's not remove the context of how Jesus used the generation regarding the signs of the end. It is about a specific time period, and I'm pretty sure you know it, just as you recognized the Luke 1 usage points to generations involving time.

It is pointless to argue over the meaning of the word generation anyway, since the word can mean an era of people, or a specific genealogy of people. You cannot discard its usage for pointing to a specific time or era of people only. Doing that just make one look silly, as if they could rewrite the definition of the word! In other words, your logic does not work at all, and is foolishness.

claninja said:

You are ignoring all the “you” Jesus states that would happen to the disciples throughout the discourse.

For some reason dispensationalists refuse to answer the following questions:

Did the disciples’ generation not hear of wars? Did the disciples’ generation not see false messiahs? Did the disciples’ generation not experience famine, pestilence ,earthquakes? Did the disciples generation not experience persecution? Did the disciples’ generation not experience Jerusalem and the temples destruction?

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Now you're trying to redefine how the word 'you' can be used in English!

Ever heard of a 'formal' usage for you? It is a generic usage of the word in English, and is not specific to a person. Other languages are more specific, but English 'you' can apply to an impersonal group, nation even! Might want to brush up on your grammar.

ebedmelech said:

The passage usually ignored is Ezekiel 43:10-12. Ezekiel never made the plan known to the house of Israel.

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But he has, because we Christians are the Israelites of God and we have the Bible.

When all of the Lord's faithful Christian people go to live in all of the holy Land, as so many prophesies say they will, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 62:1-5, they; we will build the new Temple to the glory of God and His Shekinah Glory will reside in it. Ezekiel 43:1-4

BABerean2 said:

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Jesus condemns them for creating doctrines of men which overturn the doctrine of God. Jesus blames them for every drop of righteous blood shed in the world from Abel to Zachariah. And then tells them that they will be sent prophets, which they will persecute from city to city, and scourge in their synagogue, and murder... just as they murdered Jesus.

Trot out however many verses you find, you cannot change what Jesus wrote with those verses you prefer. All you can do is look like you don't believe Jesus, BeABereanToo.

Jesus warns us to beware of the leavening from the Pharisees. Jesus tells us that in them are the bones of dead men, and that they have stopped those from entering to enter, and refuse to enter themselves.

I believe Jesus. Everything must either match what He says, or get put aside unless/until I can reconcile 2 things which don't even touch.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

claninja said:

Don't put new wine into old wine skins

Mark 2:22 And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. Instead, new wine is poured into new wineskins.”b

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The first two verses match the last two verses.

9:14 Then came to Him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but Thy disciples fast not?
9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

That sounds like a fermentation problem... especially since Jesus already told us to beware of the 'yeast' of the Pharisees... [Jesus doesn't miss these opportunities, that I've ever seen.]

This linked article talks about re-fermentation which happens in the bottle. In modern bottles, carbonation happens. But brittle old wine bottles and thin old wine skins... with new-fermenting wine in them... doesn't sound like anything but a recipe for... clean up in aisle 4!

https://winemakermag.com/131-can-i-fix-a-re-fermented-wine

That new patch on an old garment story has the same effect... but in this case, Jesus is talking about His Disciples not yet having been given the Holy Spirit. Without the presence of the Holy Spirit, judging the heart of a person (new wine) will definitely make the tear into a huge hole.

hope this helps someone

ebedmelech said:

I know it's not about me.

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Glad to hear it.

Davy said:

It is about a specific time period,

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It's about a specific generation, hence the greek words "this generation" are present in the passage.

Just as "this generation" in Luke 17:25, denotes the generation standing in front of Jesus:
But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Just as 'this generation' in matthew 23:36, denotes the pharisees generation standing in front of Jesus:
Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Just as 'this generation, in luke 11:29-32, denotes the wicked generation standing right in front of Jesus:
As the crowds were increasing, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so the Son of Man will be a sign to this generation. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and now One greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now One greater than Jonah is here.

Davy said:

just as you recognized the Luke 1 usage points to generations involving time.

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Because there are multiple generations being discussed in Luke 1. But the olivet discourse is not talking about multiple generations. It's talking about one specific generation

Davy said:

It is pointless to argue over the meaning of the word generation anyway, since the word can mean an era of people, or a specific genealogy of people. You cannot discard its usage for pointing to a specific time or era of people only. Doing that just make one look silly, as if they could rewrite the definition of the word! In other words, your logic does not work at all, and is foolishness.

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Pot calling the kettle black just a little.

Davy said:

Ever heard of a 'formal' usage for you?

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You mean the indefinite (generic) form of you. Formal and informal have to do with who you are addressing, example: formal for people in authority, informal for friends. As far as I know, in current english, there is no differentiation between formal and informal you.

Davy said:

Other languages are more specific, but English 'you' can apply to an impersonal group, nation even!

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In english, 'you' is typically in 2nd person. However, when the indefinite form of 'you' is used, it is in the 3rd person.

All of the 'you' are 2nd person in the olivet discourse and thus translated as 2nd person in english, which means all the 'you' are specifically directed toward the disciples and are not generic (3rd person) as you are claiming them to be.

Davy said:

Now you're trying to redefine how the word 'you' can be used in English!

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Actually, based on the rules of grammar you are trying to redefine how the word 'you' is used in the olivet discourse. You are attempting to make them 3rd person, when in reality they are 2nd person. You are changing the original meaning to make your theology work, which is inappropriate.

Davy said:

Might want to brush up on your grammar.

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This is good advice for anyone looking into greek and english grammar. THere is always more to learn

gomerian said:

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.



The first two verses match the last two verses.

9:14 Then came to Him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but Thy disciples fast not?
9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

That sounds like a fermentation problem... especially since Jesus already told us to beware of the 'yeast' of the Pharisees... [Jesus doesn't miss these opportunities, that I've ever seen.]

This linked article talks about re-fermentation which happens in the bottle. In modern bottles, carbonation happens. But brittle old wine bottles and thin old wine skins... with new-fermenting wine in them... doesn't sound like anything but a recipe for... clean up in aisle 4!

https://winemakermag.com/131-can-i-fix-a-re-fermented-wine

That new patch on an old garment story has the same effect... but in this case, Jesus is talking about His Disciples not yet having been given the Holy Spirit. Without the presence of the Holy Spirit, judging the heart of a person (new wine) will definitely make the tear into a huge hole.

hope this helps someone

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I disagree with your interpretation, but I understand that there are multiple views on this parable. However, I have never heard of yours before;

In Jesus' day unfermented grape juice was placed into new wineskins. When it fermented it expanded the wine skin. Since the old wine skins had already been stretched, if unfermented (new) wine was placed in an old wine skin, it would create gas during fermentation and cause the already old wineskin to expand and break at the seams.

The law and prophets were until John the baptist, but after that, the gospel is preached (luke 16:16). The gospel (like the new wine) cannot fit into pharisees old ritualistic, not born again, way based on the law(old wine skin). Those must be born again (new wine skin) to accept the new way of Christ (new wine). the pharisees' way under the old ritualistic covenant (old wine skin) could not accept the new wine unless they were born again.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God

Romans 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

keras said:

But he has, because we Christians are the Israelites of God and we have the Bible.

When all of the Lord's faithful Christian people go to live in all of the holy Land, as so many prophesies say they will, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 62:1-5, they; we will build the new Temple to the glory of God and His Shekinah Glory will reside in it. Ezekiel 43:1-4

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Yes Christians are Israelites which are of every nation kindred and tongue.

Where you're off is the passages you refer to are not referring to the Holy Land we will reside in at all Keras. We are New Jerusalem and the temple. To be clear on this you should compare Revelation 21 to make that clear. No temple will be built because there's no need for a temple.

Look at your references the read Revelation 21:10-27 and get the true picture!

claninja said:

I disagree with your interpretation, but I understand that there are multiple views on this parable. However, I have never heard of yours before;

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Jeremiah 31:31-34 "Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant, Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them -- an affirmation of Jehovah. For this [is] the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Jehovah, I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for God, And they are to Me for a people. And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, Saying, Know ye Jehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Jehovah; For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more."(YLT)

John 12:48-50 "He who is rejecting Me, and not receiving My sayings, hath one who is judging him, the word that I spake, that will judge him in the last day, because I spake not from Myself, but the Father who sent Me, He did give Me a command, what I may say, and what I may speak, and I have known that His command is life age-during; what, therefore, I speak, according as the Father hath said to Me, so I speak."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 "a prophet I raise up to them, out of the midst of their brethren, like to thee; and I have given My words in His mouth, and He hath spoken unto them all that which I command Him; and it hath been -- the man who doth not hearken unto My words which He doth speak in My name, I require [it] of him."

John 15:1-4 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman; every branch in Me not bearing fruit, He doth take it away, and every one bearing fruit, He doth cleanse by pruning it, that it may bear more fruit; already ye are clean, because of the word that I have spoken to you; remain in Me, and I in you, as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, if it may not remain in the vine, so neither ye, if ye may not remain in Me."

John 3:16 "for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in Him may not perish, but may have life age-during."(YLT)

This is New Wine ...New Covenant... this is the Kingdom Gospel.

gomerian said:

And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, Saying, Know ye Jehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest,

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1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

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BABerean2 said:

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

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John 12:49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which
sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say,
and what I should speak.

"My Father's commandment" means the words that Jesus taught.

And here is Jesus keeping His Father's commandment:

19:17 ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 ... Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit
adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself.

And here is Jesus keeping His Father's commandment:

15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders,
adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

And here is Jesus keeping His Father's commandment:

9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their
sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Every place that Jesus is speaking, He is keeping
His Father's commandment. Because Jesus only taught
what His Father commanded Him to say.

When we are keeping Jesus' commandments, we are keeping
His Father's commandments... And the verses above are
also the carved-in-stone commandments.

__________
Without the Law of Moses, the Bible is a short story.

gomerian said:

Without the Law of Moses, the Bible is a short story.

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Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Notice that little important word "till" in the verse above.

The Sinai Covenant was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made.


Christ was born under the law, and circumcised under the law, and kept the law perfectly in our place.

The law ended with His last three words on the Cross (John 19:30) and the veil in the temple being ripped in half by the hand of God.

This is the truth of the Gospel.

You must do one thing. You must have faith. (Hebrews 11)
Good works are the fruit of that faith.

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gomerian said:

This is New Wine ...New Covenant... this is the Kingdom Gospel.

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I agree

BABerean2 said:

Christ was born under the law, and circumcised under the law, and kept the law perfectly in our place.

The law ended with His last three words on the Cross (John 19:30) and the veil in the temple being ripped in half by the hand of God.

This is the truth of the Gospel.
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But that is not


the Kingdom Gospel,

this is:
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away,
but My words shall not pass away.

and so is this:

"He who is rejecting Me,
and not receiving My sayings,
hath one who is judging him,
the word that I spake,
that will judge him in the last day"
(John 12:48, YLT)

____________
Contrary to your belief, Chicken-Little2,
the sky has not fallen. And even if it had fallen,
Jesus words will remain even beyond the millennium.
To say that Jesus' words are gone is to reject His words.
He who hath the Son, hath the Father.

gomerian said:

Contrary to your belief, Chicken-Little2,
the sky has not fallen. And even if it had fallen,
Jesus words will remain even beyond the millennium.
To say that Jesus' words are gone is to reject His words.
He who hath the Son, hath the Father.

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Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

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BABerean2 said:

Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
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Not until heaven and earth pass away... I'm thinking we might just have a few days yet... until the millennium... after which, we'll have a thousand years of the Law.


I'm guessing that the writer of Hebrews never heard Jesus speak.

gomerian said:

Not until heaven and earth pass away... I'm thinking we might just have a few days yet... until the millennium... after which, we'll have a thousand years of the Law.


I'm guessing that the writer of Hebrews never heard Jesus speak.

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Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.


Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.




Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Mount Sinai)
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Keep hanging onto the Sinai Covenant of "bondage", which is "the mountain that burns with fire".
The Judaisers will be proud of you.

Christ was the only person in the Bible to ever keep the Sinai Covenant, but that was before you were born.


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BABerean2 said:

Christ was the only person in the Bible to ever keep the Sinai Covenant, but that was before you were born.

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Books, Chapters, and Verses, please.

You're saying that no human has ever kept themselves from breaking the 10 Commandments.

I'm guessing your verses will actually be said about the anomia people, rather than Israelites.