What the Bush Administration thinks of Christians.

[mont974x4]

I leave you in peace and pray you do some deep research on these issues from credible sources.

 

[Candide]

I've done deep research, and I'm very aware of what's going on around me politically. Can you point me in the right direction, or tell me where I'm wrong, and how you know this? That would be helpful.

 

[mont974x4]

Being a father of 4 sons I take my responsibility seriously. When discussing whether or not to homeschool I found that ther muslim issue in schools are very real. As to evolution and sex ed, they are dangerous and the biblical truth is not allowed an equal footing in what is taught leading to a dishonest and biased education. For example, a group of 3rd graders in Washington (if I recall rightly) were being asked about their sex life. Sex ed is definately my area of responsibility as a parent. Or it being taught that being gay is ok, when biblically it is not.

It takes a lot to "unteach" the lies and damaging ideals taught to our kids in public schools.

Also, as a libertarian, I am a pretty strict Constitutionalist. Most of governemnt programs are not Consitutional and I swore an oath when I enlisted to defend the Consitution. There was no end date on that oath.

It is not the governments job to provide for the poor, provide health care, provide education. That is either our job as the Church or our job as parents.


Honestly the GWOT is about the only area I agree with Bush but I have to show proper respect and obedience so long as the laws of the land do not command me to disobey God...thus far they only allow people to disobey God.


Check out Esther, Daniel, Joseph, Shadrack and crew the you can get a good picture of biblical civil disobedience.

God bless
Jay

 

[Ringo84]

As long as the manmade laws do not demand us to disobey God then we have the responsibility to obey them.

It is mainly dem's that are willing to subvert our national soveriegnty in favor of UN and NATO control. Like Clinton placing our troops under foreign command.

Mainly dem's but liberal policies in general are making it more and more difficult to worship God. For example, the recent legislation that would make churches fall under lobbyist laws. Islam is being forced on our children in public schools in some areas but Christianity is being shut down. Evolution? Sex ed? Parental rights are being overrun by the liberal agenda.

Personally I don't care about gay marriage laws. They wouldn't demand that we all be married to same sex partners and no matter what mans laws say, God defines marriage in His mind and we won't change that.

Islam is being forced on our children in public schools in some areas

That is pure hyperbole. Is there any truth to this statement at all?

Christianity is being shut down.

No it's not. Personal freedom of religion is alive and well in the public school.

the liberal agenda.

What liberal agenda? That smells more like a generalization than calling attention to any real "agenda".
Ringo

 

[jad123]

That is pure hyperbole. Is there any truth to this statement at all?



No it's not. Personal freedom of religion is alive and well in the public school.



What liberal agenda? That smells more like a generalization than calling attention to any real "agenda".
Ringo

Where is personal freedom of religion alive and well in the public schools? Where is Creation taught along side evolution? What history class includes the most historically accurate book ever (The Bible)? The public school system allows for brash events such as the National Day of Silence in support of the gay agenda and yet students who protest on this day by wearing a Christian T-Shirt are suspended. Yeah, religious freedom alive and well, not a chance.

 

[jad123]

That is pure hyperbole. Is there any truth to this statement at all?

February 2006:

A federal appeals court has ruled that it's fine for NYC Public Schools to ban nativity scenes at Christmas time, while permitting the Islamic star and crescent during Ramadan. The ruling is based on the absurd notion that the star and crescent symbol is "secular," as opposed to "purely religious" nativity scenes. Jewish menorahs during Hanukkah are also given "secular" status and are not forbidden by our black-robed rulers.

 

[Ringo84]

Where is personal freedom of religion alive and well in the public schools? Where is Creation taught along side evolution? What history class includes the most historically accurate book ever (The Bible)? The public school system allows for brash events such as the National Day of Silence in support of the gay agenda and yet students who protest on this day by wearing a Christian T-Shirt are suspended. Yeah, religious freedom alive and well, not a chance.

Where is Creation taught along side evolution?

I'm not getting into a creation vs evolution debate with you, but I don't believe that creation is science and should be taught as scientific fact alongside evolution.

Again: I'm not getting into a debate about evolution here. I'm just stating my opinion on the matter.

What history class includes the most historically accurate book ever (The Bible)?

If you mean the Bible as a history book only, then I agree with you. If you mean teaching the Bible as a book of faith (that is, teaching doctrine in public schools), then it's a violation of the Constitution.

brash events such as the National Day of Silence in support of the gay agenda

I've never heard of the 'National Day of Silence', so I honestly don't know what it is. But if you mean the "gay agenda" as in: "acceptance of people who are different than you", it has my support.

students who protest on this day by wearing a Christian T-Shirt are suspended.

That depends on the context. I haven't heard of this, but I also didn't see what the students were wearing. If the T-shirt was non-offensive ("[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] burn in hell" or something like that) and simply stated an opinion on homosexuality, then the school was wrong in suspending them.

All these issues depend on the context. Also, it's important to remember that these events were the action of the individual school districts; not the government as a whole.

Yeah, religious freedom alive and well, not a chance.

That's where you're completely wrong. Religious freedom always has been and always will be alive and well in our school. Actions by individual school districts don't change that fact. Students attending public school have certain rights, which I doubt will ever be taken away.

A federal appeals court has ruled that it's fine for NYC Public Schools to ban nativity scenes at Christmas time, while permitting the Islamic star and crescent during Ramadan. The ruling is based on the absurd notion that the star and crescent symbol is "secular," as opposed to "purely religious" nativity scenes. Jewish menorahs during Hanukkah are also given "secular" status and are not forbidden by our black-robed rulers.

The Nativity in what context? I'm not sure exactly how I feel about that, because on one hand, I think thr public school should not teach religious beliefs - that's the job of the church. On the other hand, it's puzzling that they would ban the Nativity while allowing Islamic symbols.
Ringo

 

[Candide]

You advocates for religion in school must certainly realize the can of worms you're opening up.

If we were to teach creationism in schools, we would also have to teach all the other creation myths of most of the other prominent religions (excluding the fact that none of those things should be taught in a science class).

It's a good thing to be teaching diversity and respect for the traditions and cultures of this world, but making such doctrine the core of our curriculum is a big mistake.

And I make my point again. If any religion is being persecuted in this nation, it's Islam, not Christianity.

 

[Ringo84]

You advocates for religion in school must certainly realize the can of worms you're opening up.

If we were to teach creationism in schools, we would also have to teach all the other creation myths of most of the other prominent religions (excluding the fact that none of those things should be taught in a science class).

It's a good thing to be teaching diversity and respect for the traditions and cultures of this world, but making such doctrine the core of our curriculum is a big mistake.

And I make my point again. If any religion is being persecuted in this nation, it's Islam, not Christianity.

You advocates for religion in school must certainly realize the can of worms you're opening up.

If we were to teach creationism in schools, we would also have to teach all the other creation myths of most of the other prominent religions (excluding the fact that none of those things should be taught in a science class).

Exactly. We can't teach students every single theory known to man about the origin of the universe. Evolution happens to be one of the best theories we have for the origin of the universe at this time. When a better theory comes along that disproves evolution, I'm sure that the new theory will be taught in place of evolution.

It's a good thing to be teaching diversity and respect for the traditions and cultures of this world, but making such doctrine the core of our curriculum is a big mistake.

That's right. The public school should have respect for individual religious beliefs within reason, but the public school should never take up where the church left off the sunday before. It's not the job of the public school to teach doctrine - that's the church's job.

If any religion is being persecuted in this nation, it's Islam, not Christianity.

I could see that happening today. Well-meaning people who are justifiably angry over the 9/11 attacks would probably lash out at all Muslims as a whole rather than blame those that were truly responsible for the attacks: radical fundamentalist Muslims.
Ringo

 

[Candide]

In addition, we need to remember what freedom of religion is. Freedom of religion is the right for people to go to a synagogue, mosque, or church without the fear of government soldiers shooting them. Freedom of religion is the ability of people to create Christian private schools that are accepted by the government accreditation process. Freedom of religion is the right that people have to worship whatever God they want, whenever they want to, however they see fit (within reason), without fear of government persecution.

Freedom of religion is NOT the ability to indoctrinate the society with one particular religions view of science and the like. You don't like what's happening in our schools? Send your kid to private school. You are allowed to do that because of Freedom of Religion.

 

[jad123]

It is funny to me how people see things so differently yet claim to be the same. I believe this country has lost sight of what was meant by freedom of religion. Freedom of denomination, of a state sponsored church not freedom from Christianity. As a Christian father my most important duty while I am on this earth is to raise my children as God fearing individuals. I know many will disagree with the next statement and so be it but I do not see how public schools are a place for the Christian child. It is funny to me how we hear about separation of church and state, religious freedom, etc. etc. We have confused doctrinal religion and denominational religion. Christianity was apart of the early "public" schools as well as the foundation of this country. How blinded this country has become.

Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."

The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.

The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.

Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.

Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.

Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."

Our national anthem mentions God.

The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.

The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God

Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.

The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools up until recent times.

The New York education system school prayer: At least until the libs got it removed in 1962. "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country."

The Pennsylvania school system complied with a state law requiring that ten verses of scripture be read every day. The readings were without comment and any student could request to be excused. This lasted until 1963.

 

[Candide]

Okay...but why is it a bad thing that those things are gone now?

And about the "In God we trust" and all the other mentioning of God...which God is it talking about? Yahweh? Allah? Vishnu?

And about the Founding Fathers being "Christian" (you didn't say it, but you certainly implied it), last I hear that wasn't true at all. They were deists and theists, but not Christian.

And okay, our nation perhaps had a couple of religious themes tied into its creation and whatnot...why is it a problem that that's not the case now? They also had slaver when this country started. Should we go back to that system, for the sake of "keeping to our roots"?

 

[jad123]

Okay...but why is it a bad thing that those things are gone now?

Why is it a bad thing that we remove God? Do I really need to answer that?

And about the "In God we trust" and all the other mentioning of God...which God is it talking about? Yahweh? Allah? Vishnu?

This is a reach. Historical fact is this country was founded on Christian principles. See more below.

And about the Founding Fathers being "Christian" (you didn't say it, but you certainly implied it), last I hear that wasn't true at all. They were deists and theists, but not Christian.

Never said they were Christian. Some were and some were not. The left would have everyone believe that they were all secular atheists and the right would have you believe that they we conservative Christians.

John Adams [SIZE=+1][SIZE=-1]wrote to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813:
[/SIZE][/SIZE][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=+1][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA, ARIAL][SIZE=-1]The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.

John Adams was a self professed Unitarian.

Sam Adams last will and testament: [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=+1][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA, ARIAL][SIZE=-1]" Principally, and first of all, I resign my soul to the Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying on the merits of Jesus Christ for the pardon of my sins."

Patrick Henry, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, and many others spoke of Christ, being Christian, or Christian values.

Not all were that is a given, but the undeniable fact is that this country was founded with Christian principles and beliefs and it is the framework that many people before us died for believing and fighting for. Not the modern day stuff that is taught these days. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=+1][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA, ARIAL][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
And okay, our nation perhaps had a couple of religious themes tied into its creation and whatnot...why is it a problem that that's not the case now? They also had slaver when this country started. Should we go back to that system, for the sake of "keeping to our roots"?

As in question one it is unbelievable to me that this must be answered. Our nation has had more than a couple of religious themes. Christianity is the basis for how the Law in theis country was established. What makes right or wrong. Where do you get your principles from? Who decides if what you do, say, or how you act is right or wrong?

What is the problem?
We live in a country where roughly 80% of people profess to be Christians but:
Over 50% of marriages end in divorce
Over 3000 thousand of abortions are done each day.
Over 16000 murders are committed each year
Over 92000 rapes are committed each year
Over 1 million teens become pregnant each year. 33% of those end in abortion.

The problem is clear.

 

[Candide]

Why is it a bad thing that we remove God? Do I really need to answer that?

Yes, you need to answer that. See the separation of Church and State, which, incidentally, was also a founding principle of this nation.

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=+1][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA, ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Not all were that is a given, but the undeniable fact is that this country was founded with Christian principles and beliefs and it is the framework that many people before us died for believing and fighting for. Not the modern day stuff that is taught these days. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Granted...but those Christian principles also coincide with many main principles of many other religions. Concerning ideas like "don't murder," and things like that, Christianity isn't all that original or unique.

As in question one it is unbelievable to me that this must be answered. Our nation has had more than a couple of religious themes. Christianity is the basis for how the Law in theis country was established. What makes right or wrong. Where do you get your principles from? Who decides if what you do, say, or how you act is right or wrong?

See my above response. The things that are supposedly "Christian principles" aren't unique to Christianity at all. And you get your principles from the social contract. You can do that perfectly fine without religion. Believe it or not, you don't have to be Christian to recognize that murder isn't a very enriching activity for a community.

What is the problem?
We live in a country where roughly 80% of people profess to be Christians but:
Over 50% of marriages end in divorce
Over 3000 thousand of abortions are done each day.
Over 16000 murders are committed each year
Over 92000 rapes are committed each year
Over 1 million teens become pregnant each year. 33% of those end in abortion.

What are you saying here? That those statistics would be better if we indoctrinated the entire nation with Christianity, and made that number up at the top 100%? Talk about a loss of religious freedom. Remember, religious freedom means just that. Religious freedom. Not Christian freedom. Religious freedom.

 

[Ringo84]

Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."

It's not even true; we all don't "trust in God".

The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

From "separation of church and state homepage":
Moses and the 10 Commandments are not prominently featured in the Supreme Court building. Rather, most of the artistic embellishment in the building involves symbolic and allegorical representations of such legal themes as justice, authority, fairness and the like. Most of these representations involve human figures representing the civilizations of Greece and Rome (the building itself was designed to invoke the feeling of the classical Greek temple). If quantity is the measure of importance, the architecture of the Supreme Court favors the classical over the Mosaic tradition of law. Moreover, where Moses and the 10 Commandments are depicted, they are never given positions of exclusive prominence, as we would expect if the intention of the architecture was to establish a connection between the Bible and American law. Rather, the architecture depicts Moses as one of many important lawgivers, and the 10 Commandments as one of many important events in legal history

Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.

Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.

Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."

The Constitution covers the oath into the office of President as an "Oath or Affirmation". Nowhere is there anything requiring that oath to mention God or requiring the candidate to swear on the Bible. The Presidents who swore on the Bible were doing so as a show of personal faith.

The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.

Two people named Lutz and Hyneman studied the amount of Biblical passages written in letters from our founding fathers in the years between 1787 and 1788. f the founders believed that the Bible was truly relevant to the Constitution, Biblical citations should appear in abundance in this sample, but, they don't. On the contrary, Biblical citations are virtually nonexistent in this sample. According to Lutz, federalist (i.e., pro-Constitution) writers never quoted the Bible in their political writings between 1787 and 1788. Conversely, anti-federalist writers quoted the Bible only 9% of the time.

Our national anthem mentions God.

So what? It's a song; not a statement of beliefs. The national anthem wasn't even written by our founding fathers.

The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.

And that's supposed to prove conclusively that we're a Christian nation? Again: so what?

The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God

The original constitutions of all fifty states are not Constitutional. They could invoke the name of Allah and it still has no bearing on the reality of church/state separation.

Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.

Rightly so. The faith they espouse is their own; not an official faith required by the US government.

The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools up until recent times.

It depends on the context. A textbook of faith or as a vehicle to learn history? Teaching the doctrine of the Bible is clearly unconstitutional in the public school. Teaching the Bible as a historical book is not.

The New York education system school prayer: At least until the libs got it removed in 1962. "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country."

"The libs"? Stop generalizing.

You're incorrect. Prayer was never taken out of public school and never will be taken out. Required prayer at the beginning of the school day was outlawed in 1962 - there's a big difference between that and personal prayer.
Ringo

 

[jad123]

Why is it a bad thing that we remove God? Do I really need to answer that?

Yes, you need to answer that. See the separation of Church and State, which, incidentally, was also a founding principle of this nation.

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=+1][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA, ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Not all were that is a given, but the undeniable fact is that this country was founded with Christian principles and beliefs and it is the framework that many people before us died for believing and fighting for. Not the modern day stuff that is taught these days. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Granted...but those Christian principles also coincide with many main principles of many other religions. Concerning ideas like "don't murder," and things like that, Christianity isn't all that original or unique.

As in question one it is unbelievable to me that this must be answered. Our nation has had more than a couple of religious themes. Christianity is the basis for how the Law in theis country was established. What makes right or wrong. Where do you get your principles from? Who decides if what you do, say, or how you act is right or wrong?

See my above response. The things that are supposedly "Christian principles" aren't unique to Christianity at all. And you get your principles from the social contract. You can do that perfectly fine without religion. Believe it or not, you don't have to be Christian to recognize that murder isn't a very enriching activity for a community.

What is the problem?
We live in a country where roughly 80% of people profess to be Christians but:
Over 50% of marriages end in divorce
Over 3000 thousand of abortions are done each day.
Over 16000 murders are committed each year
Over 92000 rapes are committed each year
Over 1 million teens become pregnant each year. 33% of those end in abortion.

What are you saying here? That those statistics would be better if we indoctrinated the entire nation with Christianity, and made that number up at the top 100%? Talk about a loss of religious freedom. Remember, religious freedom means just that. Religious freedom. Not Christian freedom. Religious freedom.

All that is left to say is that when Christians have to debate very simple facts it shows the extremely sad state of the country. You and I have a clear difference on what was meant by religious freedom. Yes the world be a better place if we all accepted Christ. You can not possibly argue that. I realize that may not be reality but I don't really care, it is what WE AS CHRISTIANS should strive for. And Christianity my friend is VERY unique and I am saddened you do not see that. And just for the record I do not get my principles from a "social contract" as you say because my of current societies principles conflict with Christianity and I will not bend to myself or others feel better or to justify my sins or others.

 

[Candide]

All that is left to say is that when Christians have to debate very simple facts it shows the extremely sad state of the country. You and I have a clear difference on what was meant by religious freedom. Yes the world be a better place if we all accepted Christ. You can not possibly argue that. I realize that may not be reality but I don't really care, it is what WE AS CHRISTIANS should strive for. And Christianity my friend is VERY unique and I am saddened you do not see that. And just for the record I do not get my principles from a "social contract" as you say because my of current societies principles conflict with Christianity and I will not bend to myself or others feel better or to justify my sins or others.

I agree with much of what you said. I believe that the point of Christianity is to in fact make disciples of the entire Earth (read my sig), and that when God accomplishes that through us, the world will in fact be a much better place. But forcing people to be Christians through having a Christian theocracy is not the way to do that. That was tried once, and it didn't work out AT ALL. And you can't possibly argue that it did.

Yes, Christianity is very unique...I never said that it wasn't. But in terms of principles. it's pretty much the same as most big religions. "Love thy neighbor, don't murder" and all that stuff. That's what I was saying, only to make the point that those principles in our society do not reflect Christianity, per se, but religion in general. I don't understand how you can interpret religious freedom as only being a right for Christians, but whatever.

 

[Hunterkirk]

First off, J. David Kuo is a ex-member of the Bush administration, and while his role as a member of the faith based initiatives is note worthy also note worthy is his connection with John Ashcroft who is part of a group that broke away from Bush and released Plame's id to the press with the intent of setting up the Bush administration to take the fall for the leak... the press and elements in the government played ball with him and thusly Libby was punished while Ashcroft the real leaker walked free.

Now you have a buddie of Ashcroft selling a book about how Bush is lieing to Religious Conservatives. If you don't understand the connections you will not see the truth. The truth is that their is a power struggle in the Republican party and one side of that struggle consists of Powel, Ashcroft, and a number of others. The other side of the struggle consists of Bush, Rove, and others.

As for what Bush has or has not done for the Religious conservative element... At least he talks to them. The Democrats openly insult them and mock them, they would be more likely to talk to Hamas (and have) then they would ever be to talk with conservative Christians. Granted Bush uses this connection to get votes... well that is what is commonly called politics.

So let us look at the choices the Christian Conservatives have? The Democrats whom openly hate them worse then any terrorist group. The Republicans who listen and at times throws them a favor or two. The Constitutionalist a party fully behind them but with not enough real power to alter the political world other then to hand the power to the Democrats by splitting the Republican vote.

So we hold our noses and vote republican because we know just how hated we are by the liberals and democrats.

 

[Ringo84]

First off, J. David Kuo is a ex-member of the Bush administration, and while his role as a member of the faith based initiatives is note worthy also note worthy is his connection with John Ashcroft who is part of a group that broke away from Bush and released Plame's id to the press with the intent of setting up the Bush administration to take the fall for the leak... the press and elements in the government played ball with him and thusly Libby was punished while Ashcroft the real leaker walked free.

Now you have a buddie of Ashcroft selling a book about how Bush is lieing to Religious Conservatives. If you don't understand the connections you will not see the truth. The truth is that their is a power struggle in the Republican party and one side of that struggle consists of Powel, Ashcroft, and a number of others. The other side of the struggle consists of Bush, Rove, and others.

As for what Bush has or has not done for the Religious conservative element... At least he talks to them. The Democrats openly insult them and mock them, they would be more likely to talk to Hamas (and have) then they would ever be to talk with conservative Christians. Granted Bush uses this connection to get votes... well that is what is commonly called politics.

So let us look at the choices the Christian Conservatives have? The Democrats whom openly hate them worse then any terrorist group. The Republicans who listen and at times throws them a favor or two. The Constitutionalist a party fully behind them but with not enough real power to alter the political world other then to hand the power to the Democrats by splitting the Republican vote.

So we hold our noses and vote republican because we know just how hated we are by the liberals and democrats.

"the" liberals and Democrats? Stop generalizing.
Ringo

 

[Candide]

Your very words prove that if such unfounded, arbitrary animosity exists (though I don't believe it does) between the parties, that it certainly goes both ways.

That aside, I've never heard any Democrat "hating" or "mocking" conservatives, at least not any worse than the Republicans dish out. It goes both ways. And it's important to know that the loudest voices will get heard, even though those voices rarely speak for the majority. Just because you heard some shock jock liberal say that "conservatives are stupid" (though you would have probably heard that on FoxNews...), doesn't mean that those views represent the party of movement as a whole.